OOTS #1113 - The Discussion Thread

[JumboWheat01]

Ah, loop-holes. Always make cleric-ing more interesting.

[Dr.Zero]

BUT!
If being dishonorable is what is required to follow Loki's path
AND
there is nothing more honorable for a cleric than following his god's truth (so much that her soul is considered to die with honor)
THEN
she is not following Loki's path, thus she isn't doing what is honorable for a cleric of Loki.


Which means she indeed follows Loki's path. Which means she doesn't. Which means...

The old and dear: "This sentence if false."
I feel like Loki watched too many ST:TOS episodes where Kirk used this to make computers explode.

[schmunzel]

My view on oppression is pretty much the view on oppression to which, oh, I don't know, the United Federation of Planets in Star Trek or the Maquis in the same franchise ascribe. It's not exactly an anarchist's view or something to that effect. On that note, since when is married off to a turnip at crossbow point mild?



Well, yes, I do.

Quot erat demonstratum - all dwarfes will rest easy in their coffins now knowing that star trek was involved so it was probably all ok

what bigotry or idiocy?? stupidity??? naivity???
Did I miss something?? is this even a legitimate test ?? What would the United Federation of the Planets think??
What would they do? Eradicate the entire dwarfen race for not abiding by their societal standards??

Gott im Himmel steh mir bei

<snip>


Oh, not really. I'll readily advocate for the personal freedom of anyone who doesn't want to be oppressed and transfer the blame for whatever they do to the oppressor.

How more opressing can you get than gunning them all down because you just feel like it because its cheap because you imagine you wouldnt be responsible?

You are the worst opressor of them all

[The_Weirdo]

Quot erat demonstratum - all dwarfes will rest easy in their coffins now knowing that star trek was involved so it was probably all ok

what bigotry or idiocy?? stupidity??? naivity???
Did I miss something?? is this even a legitimate test ?? What would the United Federation of the Planets think??
What would they do? Eradicate the entire dwarfen race for not abiding by their societal standards??

Gott im Himmel steh mir bei

Okay, one, they have no coffins. Unless Rich draws said coffins.
Two, I never claimed we (or the in-comic humans) should kill them. I claimed Hilgya had a right to. And I claimed their society should fall.
Three, do you really think the Federation would shed many tears should Bajorans or even Maquis blow up Cardassia Prime?

How more opressing can you get than gunning them all down because you just feel like it because its cheap because you imagine you wouldnt be responsible?

You are the worst opressor of them all

And what if it were Hilgya, then? She didn't want to marry Ivan. She's a dwarf, has actually been harmed by their society and so on. Would she be an oppressor for wanting her pound of flesh?

[The MunchKING]

My headcanon: 1 soul-power, or something similarly banal
GW

It was implied to be a LOT of soul power, as she mentioned it IN ADDITION TO the 10 million dwarf souls that would push her up to above Odin.

[3WhiteFox3]

Quot erat demonstratum - all dwarfes will rest easy in their coffins now knowing that star trek was involved so it was probably all ok

what bigotry or idiocy?? stupidity??? naivity???
Did I miss something?? is this even a legitimate test ?? What would the United Federation of the Planets think??
What would they do? Eradicate the entire dwarfen race for not abiding by their societal standards??

Gott im Himmel steh mir bei

Not to mention they talk about both the Federation and the Maquis, who literally fought over whether or not the federation was assisting in their oppression by the Cardassians. So even their examples are self-contradictory. And the Federation is not the be-all, end-all of what a good society is either. Remember, they are a-ok with condemning billions to die in order to follow the federation's prime directive (seems pretty lawful for a self-proclaimed chaotic person).

And even Picard, the mouth-piece for Federation philosophy admitted that sometimes they had to allow people to do bad things because they have no right to interfere. Does he go in and set up assassination attempts against the Klingons? No, he works with them to try and improve their broken, oppressive system through peace. One of the recurring conflicts on that show is where to draw the line of when you shouldn't interfere with the business of others!

I really don't understand The_Weirdo's position.

[Kish]

My view on oppression is pretty much the view on oppression to which, oh, I don't know, the United Federation of Planets in Star Trek or the Maquis in the same franchise ascribe.

Considering one of the two organizations you just named defines the other as a criminal organization while the second organization defines the first one as an oppressive government, I think there may be something off in this one of your theses.

Also, say what you like about the Prime Directive, it's pretty close to the exact opposite of a mandate to annihilate any oppressive government, though I can think of a Star Trek galactic power dedicated to that end (it's the Borg, prior to the stupid "instead of them being a true collective they're all slaves to an evil queen" retcon).

[The_Weirdo]

Snip.

I used the Federation as a shorthand for the kind of moderate societal norms most of us in this forum presumably believe in - no forced marriages, everyone gets pursuit of happiness and so on.

Basically, the standards for societal freedoms to which, presumably, most of us are accustomed.

[The MunchKING]

Three, do you really think the Federation would shed many tears should Bajorans or even Maquis blow up Cardassia Prime?

Yes? Because they aren’t evil, and see extermination of a semi tent people as horrifying and abhorrent.

[The_Weirdo]

Yes? Because they aren’t evil, and see extermination of a semi tent people as horrifying and abhorrent.

I can think of quite a few Federation citizens going "well, at least now they won't attack us" and of quite a few others, especially among those with Bajoran or Maquis friends, going couldn't have happened to a nicer people. It's perfectly reasonable not to really mind if the Fascist, aggressive state with a history of invading others for slave labor gets blown up.

[Jasdoif]

I really don't understand The_Weirdo's position.

I believe it's rationalization of serial killing; the oppression part is just an implementation detail.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It was implied to be a LOT of soul power, as she mentioned it IN ADDITION TO the 10 million dwarf souls that would push her up to above Odin.

I don't remember that. Link?

I believe it's rationalization of serial killing; the oppression part is just an implementation detail.

More like massively parallel killing, given that it seems this is the second time that they've derailed the conversation into trying to justify annihilation of an entire species.

GW

[The_Weirdo]

I believe it's rationalization of serial killing; the oppression part is just an implementation detail.

HEY!

Didn't I eat you in previous threads?

[3WhiteFox3]

I used the Federation as a shorthand for the kind of moderate societal norms most of us in this forum presumably believe in - no forced marriages, everyone gets pursuit of happiness and so on.

Basically, the standards for societal freedoms to which, presumably, most of us are accustomed.

Right, but one of those standards for societal freedoms is that other cultures will do things that make you very uncomfortable, but in the interests of peace you have to pick your battles. Know what is worth fighting over and what isn't. I follow that standard because I believe it is the best way to allow people to live free. I'd rather convert through words and benevolence than violence (even if violence is sometimes a necessity).

[Jasdoif]

HEY!

Didn't I eat you in previous threads?

I recall you saying you ate a banana; that may have been true. I'm not privy to (all) your hallucinations.

[The_Weirdo]

Right, but one of those standards for societal freedoms is that other cultures will do things that make you very uncomfortable, but in the interests of peace you have to pick your battles. Know what is worth fighting over and what isn't. I follow that standard because I believe it is the best way to allow people to live free. I'd rather convert through words and benevolence than violence (even if violence is sometimes a necessity).

And I'm not advocating for us to invade the Dwarven lands, even because there'd be too many of us to stand on poor Rich's computer...

I'm just saying that, well, if Hilgya rained Hel on the Dwarves, can't really blame her.

I recall you saying you ate a banana; that may have been true. I'm not privy to (all) your hallucinations.

>_>

<_<

*Eats you*

[schmunzel]

Okay, one, they have no coffins. Unless Rich draws said coffins.
Two, I never claimed we (or the in-comic humans) should kill them. I claimed Hilgya had a right to. And I claimed their society should fall.
Three, do you really think the Federation would shed many tears should Bajorans or even Maquis blow up Cardassia Prime?



And what if it were Hilgya, then? She didn't want to marry Ivan. She's a dwarf, has actually been harmed by their society and so on. Would she be an oppressor for wanting her pound of flesh?

You claimed they dont deserve to exist - I fail to see a difference

sch

[3WhiteFox3]

And I'm not advocating for us to invade the Dwarven lands, even because there'd be too many of us to stand on poor Rich's computer...

I'm just saying that, well, if Hilgya rained Hel on the Dwarves, can't really blame her.

I can blame her because using the tools of the oppressor to fight oppression just creates collateral damage and casualties of war. What happens when children who survive, who did nothing wrong see the pain caused by Hilga and decide to rain Hel on her? When does it end?

[The_Weirdo]

I can blame her because using the tools of the oppressor to fight oppression just creates collateral damage and casualties of war. What happens when children who survive, who did nothing wrong see the pain caused by Hilga and decide to rain Hel on her? When does it end?

They can take it up with the clans. The clans started it.

[schmunzel]

I used the Federation as a shorthand for the kind of moderate societal norms most of us in this forum presumably believe in - no forced marriages, everyone gets pursuit of happiness and so on.

Basically, the standards for societal freedoms to which, presumably, most of us are accustomed.

So there are societies not believing in these values ??? who would have thought!!
They all probably didnt pass The Weirdos right to existance test.
poor them. Didnt they know he is the one and only moral compass??

All hail The Weirdo!

[3WhiteFox3]

They can take it up with the clans. They started it.

But why is it the clan's responsibility and not the people who started the clan's oppression? After all, the clans don't exist in a vacuum, there's some reason they exist the way they do. Why is Hilga free from all responsibility for the evil she commits (which is just as bad as the evil inflicted on her) but the clans aren't?

Let's assume that the clans are all dead and no one can take responsibility for their actions any more, but Hilga has still harmed millions. Now the oppressed will have no clans to destroy, and Hilga has now oppressed them.

[The MunchKING]

I don't remember that. Link?

Huh, she didn’t say that exactly, at least not where I thought she did.

Here she talks about the winnings in addition to all the dwarf souls in the context of “then there will be Hel to pay”. But not specifically that those would be what pushed over.

[The_Weirdo]

So there are societies not believing in these values ??? who would have thought!!
They all probably didnt pass The Weirdos right to existance test.
poor them. Didnt they know he is the one and only moral compass??

All hail The Weirdo!

Somehow, not only do I think you're being ironic, I also do not think you're preparing my room in the Bundeskanzleramt.

Look, I have to do some work for a while. I'll be back in a few hours.

[The MunchKING]

*Eats you*

AAAAAAAAAALL NIGHT LONG!

[Kish]

Someone did start to blow up Cardassia Prime, or at least the occupied parts of it. It was the series finale of Deep Space Nine and the Federation was unambiguously and wholeheartedly on the side of stopping the horrific atrocity being committed.

Would she be an oppressor for wanting her pound of flesh?

Anyone who wants to carve pounds of flesh out of innocent* people is an oppressor, yes.

*"Innocent" here defined as "they didn't directly and personally do anything," not "no one anywhere near them** did anything."
**No, I will not "take it up with the clans"; a dwarf who responds to oppression with serial or spree killing is a monster who needs to be stopped, and can tell their tale of woe to the prison therapists once they are in a straitjacket.

[schmunzel]

Somehow, not only do I think you're being ironic, I also do not think you're preparing my room in the Bundeskanzleramt.

Look, I have to do some work for a while. I'll be back in a few hours.

Actually I do think that you are evil and just looking for cheap justification of the violence you want to inflict
Angela has many flaws but a malfunctioning moral compass is surely not one of them
sch

[The_Weirdo]

Actually I do think that you are evil and just looking for cheap justification of the violence you want to inflict

So long as I'm not Lawful...

[schmunzel]

So long as I'm not Lawful...

You do not have to be lawful to be honest
You do not have to be lawful to be a good person
You do not have to be lawful to respect other people
You do not have to be lawful to work for the betterment of your peers and society

You have to be a sadistic ass to think its ok to kill innocents as long as you can shift the blame elswhere

I realize you play the part - it still is abhorrent to me

sch

[The_Weirdo]

I realize you play the part - it still is abhorrent to me

Okay, that's not really how it works. I should know; many people, even here, would have said it if your interpretation of the things I said were correct...

[schmunzel]

Okay, that's not really how it works. I should know; many people, even here, would have said it if your interpretation of the things I said were correct...

What interpretation is there for the dwarf apart from being dead due to unrelated reasons??

sch