Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

[Lord Raziere]

I do think thats a good way of putting it. I think in general i liked Batman a lot more before the internet really arrived.
But when Darkseid is crashing though town he should not be doing anything that got him into sight of a living god, or god forbid in melee range of him. He should he be whispering steps of plan "push Darkseid though a boomtube" to the members of the JLA busy fighting him, or discretely be busy sabotaging the portal enemy reinforcements were comming though.

Pretty much, if I were to write Batman as a guy who wheels and deals on a godly scale, it'd be as that shadowy stealthy guy whom everyone underestimates or thinks is some random human hero Superman let in for representation purposes and none of the godly beings would ever know Batman was the one who engineered their defeat, because the whole "strike fear into the hearts of criminals" thing works for thugs and such, but god-like beings who can teleport in and ruin your entire city is a different matter.

like his plan for defeating anyone who go toe to toe with Superman should not be "go up and punch them" but "let other heroes distract him while I do this thing to their machine or plot device that screws up their plan in a way they never saw coming." he should be The Doctor but instead of alien all-time knowledge and showing off, he has pure human skill and letting the enemy live in confusion wondering how they failed. and that is how he would keep winning: because no one would know he is there, screwing up their plans while Superman takes all the attention and punches. because since when did Batman care about fame? He is Mr. Sneaky Night I need to Protect My Identity And Be serious About it. Fame is actively detrimental to how he operates outside of Gotham. or at least it should be.

[Flying Turtle]

Well personally, my fondness for Batman comes from two sources.

1. He is an encouraging power fantasy. Yes, he is absurdly capable and yes there has probably never been a real person as capable as Batman but it is still conceivable to the audience that they could become as capable as Batman. No matter how hard I work out I will never be able to shoot heat beams out of my eyes, but I could learn to punch like Batman and that's meaningful. It encourages me to actually try. It inspires me to push myself. This is what they mean when they say he's more believable than Superman. Unlike Superman, Batman makes you want to believe in him because doing so helps you believe in your self.

2. He is a powerfully endearing father figure. This is a trait that tends to get glossed over in the movies but that the TV shows flesh out in detail. As much as Batman wants to terrify criminals he also wants to comfort children. When his costume scared a child he softened it up because making children feel safe is more important to him than scaring criminals. When he watches a boy lose his parents to criminals he adopts that boy, helps him confront the men responsible for his parent's deaths, and teaches him to spare them and in doing so helps the boy move on from the trauma. When he began his super hero career Batman was still a scared child inside. Crying for his parents and lashing out at the criminals responsible so that he could make them feel the way he does. But eventually he realized that he's not unique, he's not the only one whose lost parents and he's not the only one hurting. And while he'll never be able to heal his wounds, he can heal the wounds of others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZO5qgs4Px0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOooJW5SSDA

[Starbuck_II]

Well, the Dark Metal part of comics shows the reason Batman was a so awesome is he had a rare metal in him, Batrmanium.

It is part of reason his brother is immortal.

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, the Dark Metal part of comics shows the reason Batman was so awesome is he had a rare metal in him, Batmanium.

That sounds deeply, deeply stupid.

Now see, this is where I find a disconnect with Batman because he's 'human' in the same way that Superman is 'human'. Batman has done and is capable of things that actual people just aren't. The number of fields that Batman has 'mastered' is just baffling and the same might be done in crime shows and whatnot, but its just as baffling in those instances as well.

1. He is an encouraging power fantasy. Yes, he is absurdly capable and yes there has probably never been a real person as capable as Batman but it is still conceivable to the audience that they could become as capable as Batman. No matter how hard I work out I will never be able to shoot heat beams out of my eyes, but I could learn to punch like Batman and that's meaningful.

This. The fact that Batman pushes his development of human abilities to a point virtually no real human could sustain isn't really the point. The point is that he's using the only real superpowers- intelligence, tool use, self-discipline and investment- to solve fundamentally difficult problems. If you wanna become powerful and/or solve difficult problems for real, then these are the strategies you have to apply.

The Bat-meme is terrible and misses the point entirely. I can see arguments that the lone vigilante is something of a troublesome role-model at the moment. I'm not tremendously fond of the Arkham games. And he quite possibly shouldn't be playing in the same universe as Superman (though that's another discussion.) But when he's good, he's very very good.

[Peelee]

'm not tremendously fond of the Arkham games.

That's not an opinion I hear very often. If you don't mind, what did you not enjoy about them? Even if I don't always agree with you analyses, they tend to be really well thought-out, so I'm really interested in your thoughts on them.

[Delicious Taffy]

If you don't understand the appeal of Batman, check out a few episodes of The Batman. It's on Netflix, unless they recently took it off. I highly recommend it.

Also, read Year One, if you haven't yet.

[Sapphire Guard]

The weird thing about Bat-criticism is that he's simultaneously held accountable for being both too perfect and not perfect enough.

For someone that gets called out on mastery, he fairly regularly loses and is outwitted, and/or leaves blood all over the room. A classic Bat story is 'confront, lose, come back with plan'. He tends to win by cheating rather than beating the skilled person at their own game.

He's seen as 'brooding loner', but has an extensive backroom team and works more closely with the police than any other superhero I can think of. Open contempt for his allies is very rare, and the best depictions get to the compassion at his heart.

'Batman masters everything' is the cumulative result of every story, in an individual version he's rarely so skilled. Take any long running character, give them every ability they've ever shown, and they will be pretty powerful.

[Peelee]

The weird thing about Bat-criticism is that he's simultaneously held accountable for being both too perfect and not perfect enough.

For someone that gets called out on mastery, he fairly regularly loses and is outwitted, and/or leaves blood all over the room. A classic Bat story is 'confront, lose, come back with plan'. He tends to win by cheating rather than beating the skilled person at their own game.

He's seen as 'brooding loner', but has an extensive backroom team and works more closely with the police than any other superhero I can think of. Open contempt for his allies is very rare, and the best depictions get to the compassion at his heart.

'Batman masters everything' is the cumulative result of every story, in an individual version he's rarely so skilled. Take any long running character, give them every ability they've ever shown, and they will be pretty powerful.

A lot of these issues are why I really loved Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne getting hit by Two-Face in TAS seemed a bit off, since he was a deranged ex-lawyer vs. a martial arts master. Terry McGinnis getting hit seems perfectly fine, since he's a scrappy street kid who is good at fighting. Also, almost all of Batman's former support is cut off; Alfred is dead, the Robins are gone, Barabara Gordon is commissioner... McGinnis has only Wayne to rely on, which works great because Wayne gets to remain the brains behind the operation, while still leaving Terry room to figure things out himself at times, and also offer advice on things that Bruce may not have his finger on the pulse of. Also, Gordon has a very strong... if not dislike, then distaste, a very strong distaste of Batman, and explicitly warns Terry and Bruce to not interfere with her police force; so while she still tacitly accepts Batman's continued and rejuvenated existence, she also doesn't work with him nearly as well.

Great series, really.

[BWR]

If you don't understand the appeal of Batman, check out a few episodes of The Batman. It's on Netflix, unless they recently took it off. I highly recommend it.

Also, read Year One, if you haven't yet.

The Batman was decidedly inferior to B:TAS and B:TBATB. If serious Batman is not your cuppa, try the latter.

[Peelee]

The Batman was decidedly inferior to B:TAS and B:TBATB. If serious Batman is not your cuppa, try the latter.

Was BATB the one with the 80's hair metal Joker, or the prepubescent chin-ball Joker? Never gave either show a chance, since I hated the art, so I kinda feel bad about that if BATB was good.

[No brains]

Nolan's Batman isn't a psycho. When does he ever act psychotic?

We might be defining 'psychotic' differently. I'm probably using it wrong, since I mean Bruce acts obnoxious and Batman counts on falls breaking a guy's legs. Largely this is part of his adopted personae and not exactly true to his innermost self, so that's probably why I oversimplified my summary of him. He's certainly not on the level of Crazy Steve from ASBAR, but he's not a Batman I'd feel fully comfortable around.

You're probably right that I let the tone of the film skew my perception. Especially all those scenes of him tripping out in Begins.

[Mechalich]

One of the reasons for the appeal of Batman is simply that he gets around. The character is simply everywhere in the DC universe (his Marvel counterpart in this sense is Wolverine, and there are strong parallels between the characters). Batman is so heavily used because he helps to calibrate scale. As others have pointed out, while Batman has an unrealistic number of field masteries, each individual skill is generally calibrated to peak human performance. This makes the power fantasy at least hypothetically aspirational. While imagining oneself 'being Batman' is absolutely unreasonable, imaging oneself able to do one thing that Batman can do is not. By contrast, no human can imagine them doing anything that Superman can do.

This makes his character much more relatable than many of the other Superheroes he spends a lot of time associating with and makes Batman useful as a benchmark for how dangerous some person/scenario actually is to real people compared to Superman or Wonder Woman. That's why Batman is placed into something like Justice League Dark - a scenario in which he absolutely has no place otherwise. Given that Batman is utilized in this way it is natural for the audience to identify with him much more than any other of the far more bizarre characters he is associating with at a given time. As a result, large portions of the DC universe unfold through the eyes of Batman. This is not unique to the character. The CW has absolutely done the same thing with Arrow in the 'Arrow-verse' of their various TV shows and as mentioned Wolverine plays a somewhat similar role in Marvel comics (in the MCU Black Widow and Hawkeye, who are also Batman types, have played this role).

[BWR]

Was BATB the one with the 80's hair metal Joker, or the prepubescent chin-ball Joker? Never gave either show a chance, since I hated the art, so I kinda feel bad about that if BATB was good.

Chinball. I gave this one a miss first time around because of the art too. Then I actually sat down and watched it and loved it. What might help sell it to non-Batman fans is that he shares screen time pretty equally with the rest of the DC cast, mostly the less known/less popular ones. The eponymous hero is awesome but not perfect. Try something like "Journey to the Center of the Bat" if the first couple of episodes don't appeal to you.

[Lacuna Caster]

That's not an opinion I hear very often. If you don't mind, what did you not enjoy about them? Even if I don't always agree with you analyses, they tend to be really well thought-out, so I'm really interested in your thoughts on them.

I've only played Asylum and parts of City, but I don't think the villains were handled very thoughtfully, particularly given Rockstar's evidently encyclopaedic command of the canon and raging hard-on for B:TAS. Only Joker, Freeze and possibly Catwoman aren't reduced to moustache-twirling punching bags or hypersexualised eye-candy. (I gather that Ivy gets a redemption arc in Knight, but Knight has it's own problems.)

I also think the way that enemies are assumed to be alive and unconscious no matter how you finish them feels a little cheap. I'm pretty sure that punching someone off a 20-foot drop runs a significant risk of fatal spinal trauma, and that snapping femurs normally sees a person writhing in howling agony until the ambulance arrives. The detective-work and public philanthropy aspects of the gameplay were also pretty vestigial.

They're not bad games, in purely mechanical terms, even if beat-em-ups aren't generally my thing. I just don't think they're a great showcase for Batman's better angels.

A lot of these issues are why I really loved Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne getting hit by Two-Face in TAS seemed a bit off, since he was a deranged ex-lawyer vs. a martial arts master. Terry McGinnis getting hit seems perfectly fine, since he's a scrappy street kid who is good at fighting...

...Great series, really.

Chinball. I gave this one a miss first time around because of the art too. Then I actually sat down and watched it and loved it. What might help sell it to non-Batman fans is that he shares screen time pretty equally with the rest of the DC cast, mostly the less known/less popular ones. The eponymous hero is awesome but not perfect. Try something like "Journey to the Center of the Bat" if the first couple of episodes don't appeal to you.

I generally lean toward the 'dark and gritty', Batman-wise, but Brave and the Bold is fabulous.

Bruce only gets better and grumpier with age, and I like McGinnis well enough, but... I'm just not feeling the villains in Beyond. Freeze has a nice comeback, and Inque has one or two moments, but... the mastermind of the last season is a talking dinosaur who complains about the cold. Yeah, I'm just gonna watch Feat of Clay, thanks.

Everybody forgets Beware the Batman, because it starts with a roster of godawful waste-of-oxygen what-were-they-thinking antagonists and doesn't warm up properly until the second season. Katana, Gordon, Alfred and Metamorpho are all rather well-done, though, and Two-Face and Deathstroke eventually make a pretty strong appearance.

[Sapphire Guard]

A lot of these issues are why I really loved Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne getting hit by Two-Face in TAS seemed a bit off, since he was a deranged ex-lawyer vs. a martial arts master. Terry McGinnis getting hit seems perfectly fine, since he's a scrappy street kid who is good at fighting. Also, almost all of Batman's former support is cut off; Alfred is dead, the Robins are gone, Barabara Gordon is commissioner... McGinnis has only Wayne to rely on, which works great because Wayne gets to remain the brains behind the operation, while still leaving Terry room to figure things out himself at times, and also offer advice on things that Bruce may not have his finger on the pulse of. Also, Gordon has a very strong... if not dislike, then distaste, a very strong distaste of Batman, and explicitly warns Terry and Bruce to not interfere with her police force; so while she still tacitly accepts Batman's continued and rejuvenated existence, she also doesn't work with him nearly as well.

Great series, really.

They're not issues for me, I was trying to make counterpoints to the common criticisms.

Batman Beyond has my all time favourite Bruce moment, though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afqa6FJ5S0M, where even after everything else he's been through, including the heart condition, he's still willing to step in to save a random kid from thugs.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well personally, my fondness for Batman comes from two sources.

1. He is an encouraging power fantasy. Yes, he is absurdly capable and yes there has probably never been a real person as capable as Batman but it is still conceivable to the audience that they could become as capable as Batman. No matter how hard I work out I will never be able to shoot heat beams out of my eyes, but I could learn to punch like Batman and that's meaningful. It encourages me to actually try. It inspires me to push myself. This is what they mean when they say he's more believable than Superman. Unlike Superman, Batman makes you want to believe in him because doing so helps you believe in your self.

See, in me its the opposite. Batman doesn't make me want to stand up in part because you see the deep cost it has on him...and its mostly on Bruce for some of that but I don't want to BE Batman. I might want to be able to do the things Batman does, but I don't want to be him. I don't believe in Batman because Batman's war has cost him almost everything making a life worth living.

And while I can't become Superman and do the things he does, I can aspire to be like him and that would be a life I would look back when on my death bed and be proud of...y'know...assuming I was somewhat successful. Cause I will never be able to do the things Superman can do, and that's fine, focus on being the type of guy Superman is.

The Bat-meme is terrible and misses the point entirely. I can see arguments that the lone vigilante is something of a troublesome role-model at the moment. I'm not tremendously fond of the Arkham games. And he quite possibly shouldn't be playing in the same universe as Superman (though that's another discussion.) But when he's good, he's very very good.

I will dispute that the Arkham games don't do the Bat-villains justice. Especially considering it gets the important ones done right and their relationship to Batman very correct. And the side villains, are as good as they can be considering the situation the games take place in.

[Dr.Samurai]

For me it's important to remember that these are comic book characters, so they aren't really perfect ideals represented flawlessly. At the end of the day, you need a story.

I'd push back a little on the idea that Batman doesn't have anything to look back on, or has given everything up. He has the Bat Family. For all that he's an anti-social loner, he builds others up, relies on them, and develops deep relationships with them. He's a team player, no doubt about it. He cares for people, no doubt about it.

But the part about "being like Batman" is the idea that you can overcome things in life. You can overcome trauma and you can do the impossible. Not fight alien gods, but whatever it is you might think is impossible, you can actually do if you work at it and try. That's what he represents.

And when people say "I can never be like Superman", I think that kind of misses the point to. For me, Superman represents the hope that you can wield power and still be good. That you can resist the temptation to be a tyrant. Yes, he's an alien god and I can never be an alien god. But I can be the type of person that isn't corrupted by my power and uses it to help others.

So yes, I can never do half the things Batman can do on paper. But that's not really the point.

[Starbuck_II]

For me it's important to remember that these are comic book characters, so they aren't really perfect ideals represented flawlessly. At the end of the day, you need a story.

I'd push back a little on the idea that Batman doesn't have anything to look back on, or has given everything up. He has the Bat Family. For all that he's an anti-social loner, he builds others up, relies on them, and develops deep relationships with them. He's a team player, no doubt about it. He cares for people, no doubt about it.

But the part about "being like Batman" is the idea that you can overcome things in life. You can overcome trauma and you can do the impossible. Not fight alien gods, but whatever it is you might think is impossible, you can actually do if you work at it and try. That's what he represents.

And when people say "I can never be like Superman", I think that kind of misses the point to. For me, Superman represents the hope that you can wield power and still be good. That you can resist the temptation to be a tyrant. Yes, he's an alien god and I can never be an alien god. But I can be the type of person that isn't corrupted by my power and uses it to help others.

So yes, I can never do half the things Batman can do on paper. But that's not really the point.

What about Shazam? He is like Superman crossed with Batman.
He is powers similar to Supes, but he is truly a mortal like Batman: if trained a little martial arts he would be even better. Sure he has magic lightning bolts, but that doesn't solve every problem.

[Ramza00]

They're not issues for me, I was trying to make counterpoints to the common criticisms.

Batman Beyond has my all time favourite Bruce moment, though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afqa6FJ5S0M, where even after everything else he's been through, including the heart condition, he's still willing to step in to save a random kid from thugs.

Wait your favorite moment of Batman Beyond is not the Ember Island Players version of Batman?



It is Sway, God I love Terry!

[2D8HP]

What about Shazam? He is like Superman crossed with Batman.
He is powers similar to Supes, but he is truly a mortal like Batman: if trained a little martial arts he would be even better. Sure he has magic lightning bolts, but that doesn't solve every problem.

Oh boy, I get to be pedantic about a comic book superhero!



"Shazam" was the magic word said by*Billy Batson, a boy who, by speaking the magic word (an acronym of six "immortal elders": Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles and Mercury, yes all those names aren't in the same language, if it's Zeus not Jupiter shouldn't it be Hermes not Mercury?) would turn into Captain Marvel (in the 1970's I watched the TV show in which Billy travels with his grandfather in a Winnebago Motor home from place to place doing good).

[AMFV]

Oh boy, I get to be pedantic about a comic book superhero!



"Shazam" was the magic word said by*Billy Batson, a boy who, by speaking the magic word (an acronym of six "immortal elders": Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles and Mercury, yes all those names aren't in the same language, if it's Zeus not Jupiter shouldn't it be Hermes not Mercury?) would turn into Captain Marvel (in the 1970's I watched the TV show in which Billy travels with his grandfather in a Winnebago Motor home from place to place doing good).

Not anymore. Shazam is now the name of the character.

[Ramza00]

Not anymore. Shazam is now the name of the character.

Blame US Copyright for that one, actually it is more of a trademark issue. Copyright protects the characters, but Trademark protects things like the name you get to put on the cover of your comic book. This is the abridged tale. Fawcett owned Captain Marvel / Shazam and at one time was more popular than Superman in the 1940s. Its competitor DC comics owned Superman. These two comic companies got in a decade long legal battle for Superman and Captain Marvel were way too alike in not in power sets but DC tried to copyright the idea of a costumer superhero (they eventually lose due to them not doing the right paperwork) and they had a legal battle that lasted for years. Combine with the decline of sales and Fawcett Comics decided to shut down their superhero comic division in 1953 and settle with DC while still publishing other things (for example Dennis the Mennis was one of their properties).

There was another Captain Marvel superhero not owned by DC, Fowlett, or Mavel but this person only got 4 comics. This guy inspired Marvel to make the "Captain Marvel" male superhero in the 1960s and to trademark the name. Now Trademarks are different than copyrights, and since Fawcett COmics was not publishing Captain Marvel anymore and thus did not defend their trademark for 10 years, and did not file the paperwork for a trademark renewal (which requires you to have stuff you use the trademark in distribution) than Marvel Comics was able to get the name Captain Marvel trademark and now they are the only people who can use that in their name with the trademark signal on the front cover of their comics.

You can call your character Captain Marvel inside the comics, but you can't market him as Captain Marvel on the front of your comics. Thus when DC eventually buys many of the properties of Fawcett Comics and brings these characters into the DC verse they will now call Captain Marvel Shazam on the front cover of their comics. And they have been trying to rename the hero Shazam and use the Captain Marvel name less and less.

----

I hate lawyers, but there is some internal logic in some ways to this system even though it also kind of sounds silly.

[Lacuna Caster]

And when people say "I can never be like Superman", I think that kind of misses the point to. For me, Superman represents the hope that you can wield power and still be good. That you can resist the temptation to be a tyrant. Yes, he's an alien god and I can never be an alien god. But I can be the type of person that isn't corrupted by my power and uses it to help others.

Yeah... my problem is that Superman is only willing to help others as long as he can hold down a desk-job, spend weekends on the farm, and go on dates with Lois, despite the thousands of serious crimes that must statistically occur during this 'me time'. Relatable, human, understandable? Maybe. Morally perfect? No.

It would be fine if Superman inhabited his own little pocket universe where there really are only 3-5 real emergencies of any kind on the face of the planet every week. It's another matter when he inhabits a planet that contains Vlatava, Gotham City, and a bunch of real-world nation-states.

[Eldan]

Was BATB the one with the 80's hair metal Joker, or the prepubescent chin-ball Joker? Never gave either show a chance, since I hated the art, so I kinda feel bad about that if BATB was good.

The art wasn't great, but the animation is decent, the voice acting generally pretty great and the stories are a lot of silly fun. It fully embraces all the silliest ideas DC has ever produced. It's all about Clock King, alien amoebas and racing go karts.

[Lurkmoar]

Yeah... my problem is that Superman is only willing to help others as long as he can hold down a desk-job, spend weekends on the farm, and go on dates with Lois, despite the thousands of serious crimes that must statistically occur during this 'me time'. Relatable, human, understandable? Maybe. Morally perfect? No.

It would be fine if Superman inhabited his own little pocket universe where there really are only 3-5 real emergencies of any kind on the face of the planet every week. It's another matter when he inhabits a planet that contains Vlatava, Gotham City, and a bunch of real-world nation-states.

He needs it to maintain a healthy attitude. If Superman burned out, that would bad. And Supes and the JLA try to stay out of certain affairs. Human problems have to be solved by humans not "super humans".

[dps]

Something that comes up a lot when superheroes are being discussed but hasn't been mentioned in this thread (or if it was I missed it) is that Batman has the best rogue's gallery, or at least the best know one by far.

Even someone like my mom, who wouldn't recognize well-known comic book characters like Wolverine, probably could name at least half a dozen Batman villains. As far as the general public goes, Superman has Lex Luthor, and that's about it. Spidey has a bunch of villains that people posting in this thread are familiar with, but again, outside the fandom, they're not well-known. Same with most Superheros--we know their rogue's gallery, the general public doesn't.

[Ramza00]

Something that comes up a lot when superheroes are being discussed but hasn't been mentioned in this thread (or if it was I missed it) is that Batman has the best rogue's gallery, or at least the best know one by far...

Let me re-emphasize what you said earlier that I underlined. Batman has one of the best rogue gallery period. It is not just being well known, but his rogue's gallery are interesting from a human perspective, they are relatable, interesting, charismatic, and different.

[Lacuna Caster]

See, in me its the opposite. Batman doesn't make me want to stand up in part because you see the deep cost it has on him...and its mostly on Bruce for some of that but I don't want to BE Batman. I might want to be able to do the things Batman does, but I don't want to be him. I don't believe in Batman because Batman's war has cost him almost everything making a life worth living.

He needs it to maintain a healthy attitude. If Superman burned out, that would bad. And Supes and the JLA try to stay out of certain affairs. Human problems have to be solved by humans not "super humans".

But Superman gets involved in human problems all the time. Lex Luthor and Dr. Light are a human problem. Plane crashes and train disasters are a human problem. WW2 Nazis were a human problem. Whatever Lois investigates and needs rescuing from is typically a human problem.

I mean, there's this scene in All Star Superman where he alights briefly on a tall building to talk down this fragile teen from plunging to her death. That's nice and all, but are readers not aware that 42,000 people commit suicide every year in the US alone? How does this being of ostensibly boundless compassion even find time to sleep? I mean, he either ignores the vast majority of wrist-slashing depressives while he honeymoons with Ms. Lane, or he inhabits a world where suicide is just... not a problem. How does Gotham City fit in, exactly?

Batman doesn't have this problem of characterisation, partly because he's just less powerful, but also because he takes the absolute minimum amount of downtime needed to stay physically alive and keep his company in the black. Which certainly takes a toll on him, and you can even argue that he could be doing a more efficient job by focusing exclusively on social philanthropy and/or tech research while outsourcing street-level vigilante activities to younger bucks (or less capable minds.) But nobody said that Batman was morally perfect- he can be vengeful, stubborn, blunt and brutal, and there are plenty of stories that point out how this strains his relationships, weighs on his soul and puts him within an inch of death.

Whereas few people want to hear that Superman is basically a showboating tourist who shies in terror from controversy, doing the absolute minimum required to not be a monster of indifference. You can't drag North Korea into the same universe as this entity and honestly expect his response to be 'Welp, I guess there's nothing I can do' while expecting everyone to applaud this appalling political cowardice. Nothing? Really? There was absolutely nothing the most powerful entity on earth could do to alleviate the suffering of millions? Even if you think that intervening in NK would be a logistic and political nightmare, or that regime change and reconstruction are fraught with risk and moral complexity, it sounds like you could tell a pretty interesting story about that, given a being who can, say, vaporise artillery installations from high orbit.

But Superman isn't allowed to tell those stories. Because as soon as you enter the realm of moral complexity, some readers might actually disagree with his decisions. And goodness knows we can't have that.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being pleasant, or seeking to redeem and forgive one's enemies, or forging intimate connections, or holding your strength in check. So show me how those qualities can work for the common good in a real story connected to a real world. Don't tell me there's no productive middle ground between the Smallville-Metropolis-La-La-Land-Complex and belligerent proxy imperialism. We have to do better than that.

[Lord Raziere]

So......Superman: Red Son then? Cause that sounds like what you want, Lacuna. Its a pretty good one off story about Superman, but I wouldn't make it a main thing.

[Peelee]

I mean, there's this scene in All Star Superman where he alights briefly on a tall building to talk down this fragile teen from plunging to her death. That's nice and all, but are readers not aware that 42,000 people commit suicide every year in the US alone? How does this being of ostensibly boundless compassion even find time to sleep? I mean, he either ignores the vast majority of wrist-slashing depressives while he honeymoons with Ms. Lane, or he inhabits a world where suicide is just... not a problem.

Out of curiosity, have you ever seen the Dilbert animated show? It was actually incredibly good; great writing, excellent voice actors, much better than you'd ever expect from a newspaper strip adapted to TV. Anyway, there was this episode titled "Charity." I recommend it, if you can find it.