The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[Covenant12]

I'll chime in for +0 on the Yowler.

It'd not be strongest, but it's easily playable as a decent beatstick with neat abilities and great survivability.

We've become far too used to "-0", I think. It was meant for things that are nigh on unplayable, or at least siginificantly weaker than their ECL.

The Yowler is neither.

I don't think anyone was claiming unplayable, I certainly wasn't. But compared to an orc barbarian tripper, or an uber-charger, or crusader with good maneuvers, or psychic warrior...its tanky but has real trouble contributing in a T3 environment.

It is a durable beatstick that has an underwhelming full attack, no pounce or improved grab. No reach, and as a non-humanoid (no enlarge person) without hands can't easily get reach. Its a mediocre scout, it can't compete with a halfling rogue or ranger there. And outside "do damage" or "scout" it brings nothing but its free trip. Even against a T3 benchmark it isn't terrible and is quite tanky, it just falls a bit short of +0. It is in real danger of being the dwarven defender, ignored to focus fire the casters and killed when nothing is left standing.

[ViperMagnum357]

I don't think anyone was claiming unplayable, I certainly wasn't. But compared to an orc barbarian tripper, or an uber-charger, or crusader with good maneuvers, or psychic warrior...its tanky but has real trouble contributing in a T3 environment.

It is a durable beatstick that has an underwhelming full attack, no pounce or improved grab. No reach, and as a non-humanoid (no enlarge person) without hands can't easily get reach. Its a mediocre scout, it can't compete with a halfling rogue or ranger there. And outside "do damage" or "scout" it brings nothing but its free trip. Even against a T3 benchmark it isn't terrible and is quite tanky, it just falls a bit short of +0. It is in real danger of being the dwarven defender, ignored to focus fire the casters and killed when nothing is left standing.

Oh Dwarven Defender, why do you hurt me so? I see the DR and the scaling Dodge bonus, and try to make you work in a Gestalt/Tristalt build, but you keep disappointing me with atrocious return on investment.

Relevant to the conversation-I stick by my assessment the Feral Yowler is only about 1 RHD too many to hit LA +0, but not quite up to snuff as is.

[Zaq]

The gerivar’s picture always reminds me of a combination of a cragnoc and a greater gargagnor.

Spoiler: Magi-Nation geekery

Show

The size fits, too. They’re freaking enormous creatures in every sense that matters.

Anyway yeah, obviously -0. Not even close to epic.

I'm pretty sure a 26th-level version of any PHB class would beat this thing into the ground.

How about a 19th-level version of any PHB class, since it’s allegedly CR 19? Note that I’m not saying that it’s playable at 19, mind you, because I’m not.

What’s the lowest-op Monk 19 (yes, 19 actual levels of Monk, nothing else) that can take this thing on in something resembling a fair fight?

[Jormengand]

What’s the lowest-op Monk 19 (yes, 19 actual levels of Monk, nothing else) that can take this thing on in something resembling a fair fight?

My first thought is to grab Word Given Form Mastery (because what would a low-OP build be without any truespeak?) and then enjoy total concealment from the Geriviar, which makes you untargetable to it, then rely on (improved) evasion and high reflex to avoid its grenade things if it actually manages to hit you with one.

[Inevitability]

Giants

As an apology for being a bit delayed, here's three entries at once! Don't expect too much of them, though.

Giant, Death

Death Giants are victims of an ancient curse that granted them great powers but left their souls tethered to the negative energy plane. Their abilities are flavorful, but are they competitive?

Ability scores are what you'd expect of a Huge 23-HD giant: impressive strength, high constitution, charisma, and wisdom, and small boosts to intelligence and dexterity.

Their abilities include the predictable Rock Throwing and Rock Catching (which are of zero use against most Epic monsters), as well as the very interesting Frightful Keening. It's not entirely clear whether this ability is a standard action to activate (after which it continues indefinitely) or whether it takes a standard action to use, but from a careful reading I am going to go with the first interpretation.

In other words, the giant can at-will force all living, non-fear immune beings within 100 feet to make a save or be Panicked (which presumably happens every turn?), and causing them to be Shaken even if they fail the save. That said, a sonic, mind-affecting fear abilities that doesn't work on nonliving stuff is easily protected against, and Panicking foes is strong but not encounter-winning.

The giant's SLAs are 3/day Greater Dispel Magic, Unholy Blight, and Inflict Critical Wounds, as well as 1/day Flame Strike. It's somewhat underwhelming, in my honest opinion.

Finally, there's the four 'Soul' abilities. Steal Soul allows the death giant to kill weak (<15 HP) creatures that are near it and capture the souls of anything that dies next to it. Guardian Souls is a very useful ability that grants Charisma to initiative, Spot, and Listen. Soul Healing allows the death giant to heal from negative energy in most situations, and finally Sold Soul is a flavorful but small disadvantage that doesn't impact LA.

Considering everything, I don't think the death giant is on par with anything above tier 5. -0 LA it is, though a less severe one than in many cases.

Giant, Eldritch

Giants: now with magic. They don't get spellcasting (which would be enough to make them competitive) but instead just get some moderate SLAs (at-will GDM and 3/day Dimension Door are most notable), the ability to use scrolls and wands as a wizard, and a +6 bonus on Will saves. Their chassis might give good ability boosts, but ultimately it's still a big giant that fails to be worth its 25 RHD. -0 LA.

Giant, Sand

15 RHD, Large size, and generally underwhelming stats. Continuous self-only Blur is fun, as are 1/day Meld Into Stone and Statue, but in the end it's not worth the giant amount of RHD. The only competitive thing in this statblock is the sandblaster, which is awesome and should be used wherever DMs allow it. The +4 LA currently assigned is crazy: -0 is the only appropriate value there.

[OgresAreCute]

I still find it confounding that some of the biggest, baddest creatures around have d8 3/4 BAB RHD. If Giants had d12 hit dice with full BAB and reduced hit dice bloat, some of them might have been playable.

[liquidformat]

I still find it confounding that some of the biggest, baddest creatures around have d8 3/4 BAB RHD. If Giants had d12 hit dice with full BAB and reduced hit dice bloat, some of them might have been playable.

That is more or less the story of 90% of monsters, less RHD, more hp/rhd, better BAB and they could be fun to play... As is they are -0

[OgresAreCute]

That is more or less the story of 90% of monsters, less RHD, more hp/rhd, better BAB and they could be fun to play... As is they are -0

Sure, but at least it makes some sense that vermin and humanoids have crappy RHD. Can't say the same for giants.

[Zaq]

Sure, but at least it makes some sense that vermin and humanoids have crappy RHD. Can't say the same for giants.

This isn’t exactly an edgy or controversial hot take or anything, but I don’t even see why we need the Giant type when we have Humanoid and Monstrous Humanoid.

I will grant that the actual stats associated with the three HD types differ just slightly more than I expected, but that isn’t necessarily enough justification.

[OgresAreCute]

This isn’t exactly an edgy or controversial hot take or anything, but I don’t even see why we need the Giant type when we have Humanoid and Monstrous Humanoid.

I will grant that the actual stats associated with the three HD types differ just slightly more than I expected, but that isn’t necessarily enough justification.

I agree with that. In pathfinder, giant is a subtype for humanoids. I think that's a good way to do it. Making Giant its own type and then giving it one of the crappiest types of RHD around, however, is not.

[ViperMagnum357]

Their abilities include the predictable Rock Throwing and Rock Catching (which are of zero use against most Epic monsters)

Au contraire! What if you are up against a Hecatoncheires?

More seriously, LA -0, -0, and -0. Giant RHD are pretty terrible, and having that many with no Spellcasting or worthwhile SLAs/Supernatural leaves you with just 3 more huge chunks of RHD with appropriately massive yet still inadequate piles of ability adjustments. There are individual abilities with potential, like the aforementioned Frightful Keening or the underrated Eldritch Mastery, but that is the same old story: a few gems embedded in way too much RHD of terrible typing to be salvageable as a character. If you want them, build a full caster and use Ability Rip.

[Covenant12]

Short version: -0 across the board, all by a fair margin.

Longer: At a glance it looks these are at least somewhat balanced around their CR, not their RHD. The death giant has lot of cool going with it, and I definitely think the fear effect lasts until a standard action is used to stop it, the wording supports that. With that damage, hit points, NA, specials, spell-likes it might get by in a 16th level party, 23rd there really isn't hope. Similar for the other two giants, LA is crippled purely by racial hit dice bloat. If you want them at +0/+N that needs to go way down.

[javcs]

Concur, -0 across the board.

[Nifft]

I still find it confounding that some of the biggest, baddest creatures around have d8 3/4 BAB RHD. If Giants had d12 hit dice with full BAB and reduced hit dice bloat, some of them might have been playable.

d12 HD and full BAB is just the start. They also ought to have wings, and some kind of breath weapon.

Seriously though, having a very high Str and large Reach was probably intended to compensate for their BAB.

Concur, -0 across the board.

+1 for the -0s.

[jindra34]

+1 for the -0s.

So are you trying to say these giant bags of HD are +1? Because thats what it looks like. Seriously probably a bad idea to use something that could be considered a recomendation as a means of supporting a vote. Though these earn their -0. Anything that doesn't have an HD more than 1 or 2 above their CR is probably going to get put into the dump.

[OgresAreCute]

d12 HD and full BAB is just the start. They also ought to have wings, and some kind of breath weapon.

Seriously though, having a very high Str and large Reach was probably intended to compensate for their BAB.

Having better hit dice doesn't necessitate them having higher BAB, just make the RHD more valuable and give them fewer. The only thing hit dice bloat really accomplishes is make them more resistant to hit die-based effects like sleep and dictum.

[danielxcutter]

Giant pile of Giant HD = Giant pile of fail. -0, -0, -0.

Next?

[Inevitability]

Glaistig

Bloodthirsty pond faeries: because pixies are boring.

6 fey RHD are not great, and the ability boosts aren't stellar either. However, DR 5/cold iron and resistance 10 to cold and fire make up for it some. The +4 bonus to Bluff and Sense Motive are welcome, but not incredibly useful.

The special abilities (the reason why fey are playable at all), are... okay. Blood Drain is near-useless on something with worse grapple than your average human rogue and Water Breathing is decent. Water Symbiosis is nothing but an annoying anchor to get rid of somehow (Acorn of Far Travel, Ability Rip, losing the ability to suffocate). Finally, there's the rather interesting Beguiling Song, which sadly only functions in a tiny area around the glaistig's bonded pool and is nearly useless in most campaigns.

Finally, the SLAs. At-will Hypnotism is okay-ish at ECL 6 and rapidly becomes weaker, Fog Cloud and Dancing Lights have some niche uses but are otherwise not much better. At-will Suggestion, however, is probably the most interesting part of this entire creature, even if it doesn't make it PC-worthy. 1/day Water Breathing is nearly useless in-game, unless your party has only one nonaquatic member.

Verdict: -0 LA*, with Water Symbiosis being the problematic ability one needs to get rid of for this to be playable. If your entire campaign takes place within 300 feet of a single river or lake, I guess you could assign +0 here.

[ViperMagnum357]

Glaistig: net ability modifiers and natural AC are below minimum for its RHD, which is a type on the second lowest RHD tier, just above Undead, Construct, and Ooze. 50 ft Swim speed at Medium is kind of interesting, but even combined with at will Suggestion this is not enough to salvage 6 Hit Dice worth of Fey. The rest of the package is pretty meh-Fog Cloud is a solid spell, and the DR and Resists are solid if low. Also, being capped at a 900 foot radius to a single body of water renders the PC unplayable until you find a workaround, such as a type change or special ability, likely costing you LA or class levels. On the other hand, if you were bonded to a large river or lake, that radius could well encompass a significant chunk of a plane and most/all of the campaign world, so it might not be quite as devastating as initially feared.

In any case, I do not think this justifies LA even if the Water Symbiosis is a non-issue: losing 3 BAB and sitting on garbage HP without another template to save you...means there is just not enough gain wrapped up in the too-numerous RHD of underwhelming typing to be anything but LA -0. Show me this chassis at around 4 RHD and then we might have a discussion.

[javcs]

Concur, -0*.

Even if you're doing a fixed location campaign, it still wouldn't be +0. Plus, there are options that are far better in such a scenario.

No meaningful scaling abilities, and 6 subpar RHD ... even with a decent Cha-based stat spread. I think your best bet is to do a Diplomancer-type build, but there are better options for a Diplomancer.

[Nifft]

Stats: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +8 Cha => net +22, that's quite good

At-will suggestion is pretty great and stays good for a while.

DR/5 + resistance to the two most common energy types in combo with their un-Fey-like +4 Con means these goatee girls are surprisingly tough.

The skill boosts are synergistic with their +8 Cha.

I could see them as +0 if they were allowed to travel... but they're not.

[liquidformat]

Stats: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +8 Cha => net +22, that's quite good

At 2-4 hd that is quite good at 6 that is right around average, doing a count of creatures with 6 hd I am getting an average of ~18.

So with middling ability scores, bad hd, mediocre sla, and a su that is between crippling to kind of bad if I am in the perfect campaign I will have to go with -0 LA.

On a side note if a Acorn of Far Travel was refluffed for the glaistig and functioned with Beguiling Song they could almost be +0 if not for the fact that you need to be at least a level 3 druid and would need to go back and remake it every three days or die. So to me that says Glaistig is at least LA -3 as that is what it would take to make her playable and even then with major drawbacks (ie I can only travel 1.5 days away from home until I acquire some sort of teleportation).

Spoiler

Show

Achaierai 24
Barghest 24
Basilisk 0
Bearded Devil 10
Bralani 32
Cloaker 34
Dire Wolf 18
Dragon, Blue Wyrmling 4
Dragon, White Very Young -4
Dragon, Bronze Wyrmling 16
Formian Taskmaster 32
Hound Archon 10
Howler 18
Hydra 8
Janni 22
Nymph 28
Succubus 32

[OgresAreCute]

There's a lot of similar location-bound fey like this scattered around in different monster manuals and folios. Most of them are not given a playable LA (the glaistig being one of the exceptions) despite being upright and possessing thumbs, presumably because of their fluff limiting their mobility. Suppose WotC never thought anyone would think "I wanna play a Dryad, but without that stupid tree!". Since we have a few more brain-cells to rub together in this thread, we'll naturally remove that limitation, but the Glaistig still seems pretty bad without it. The stat boosts are good, but the physical boosts are too low to make up for the 6 RHD with half BAB, and the mental boosts can never make up for 6 lost casting/manifesting levels. DR 5/Cold Iron is nice, and so is Resist Cold and Fire 10. Swim speed and water breathing are alright if you're playing a campaign where it's relevant, but it's probably not. Beguiling song is incredibly underwhelming for something that took half a page in the book to explain, blood drain is useless with that strength/BAB, non-scaling spell-likes will lose their luster in about 2 levels.

Conclusion: If you want to be a pretty woman with pointy ears, play an elf or something. -0, both with and without the asterisk.

[Morphic tide]

I'll actually give it +0-*, as a rather significant variety of aquatic campaigns can take place near-entirely within 300 ft. of a single lake or river. The things are huge, when you start talking cave systems and three dimensions, which any good aquatic campaign should. And the asterisk is a detriment, unlike all the others, and we usually judge by ignoring the condition. As-is, due to a lot of extraneous mechanics (such as the nature of point-buy), it makes a decent Totemist and great Crusader. And doesn't have quite enough RHD to completely rule out use as a Sorcerer in a pseudo-halfcaster spell spam capacity at high levels in a comfortably t3 role.

To explain my reasoning, broad bonuses are frequently better than large bonuses, in point buy for multi-stat characters. There's a pretty simple reason for this: If you're going for 16 Dexterity to maximize the value of a Breastplate, you save 4 points in point buy from a measly +2. It's a big game changer for Martials to get a small bonus to everything, because it chops off the cripplingly-expensive peaks.

A Totemist cares not for lost BAB if they can get the Strength to match it (Natural Attacks are independent of it for the number you get) and can benefit greatly from the 10 points saved to reach 18 Constitution, and benefit pretty well from the possibility of getting 20 Constitution for 10 points. Saving 6 points on getting 18 Strength? Pretty big, in point buy. All those little bonuses make you able to save a lot of points on a broadly-investing build, when you're getting a number of scores above 14.

At 28 point buy, a Glaistig can have modifiers of +4 Str, +3 Dex, +5 Con, +0 Int, +2 Wis and +3 Charisma. That seems like a damn good start for a frontliner. Is it worth 6 levels? For Incarnum and ToB, perhaps. A very, very firm "maybe", for these multiclass-friendly subsystems, and the classes in need of many, many stats like Paladin. And even a Charisma-based full caster is actually workable, as they're getting an extra +4 modifier, but only losing two or three spell levels. Sure, you need to be rather high level for this to work, but a huge number of low-level spells, all of them getting a +4 to the save DC, can very much keep up with higher-level spells of far greater scarcity. Going to be inferior... But still comfortably t3. At, like, level 14, but still, it can work.

Because it's not hopelessly behind, I give it +0, as -0 is reserved for unworkably behind. You can very much build around its downsides enough to keep up. And a negative asterisk for DM caution being needed for it to be functional in a meaningful capacity, rather than caution being needed for it to avoid snapping campaign worlds and plots alike in half with a buggy mechanic.

[Inevitability]

Gnoll, Flind

I was tempted to use the much more intimidating 5e art but decided to go with the official picture in the end.

Regular gnolls were terrible, and to this day remain one of the rare monsters not just deemed too weak for their RHD, but too weak for any amount of RHD. Even orcs (regular orcs, not water orcs) had considerable advantages that made it hard to pick gnolls over them.

The flind gnoll is stronger than its regular cousin, if nothing else. The stat adjustments (+6 strength, +2 dexterity, and +4 constitution, no penalties) are pretty good.

...sadly, aside from that there's very little that justifies playing a flind gnoll. The +2 bonus on charisma checks to influence gnolls is so situational that it might as well not exist, darkvision is common, and +2 natural armor is hardly special either. The only thing that might be interesting is weapon familiarity with flindbars (fantasy nunchucks).

This weapon, rarely mentioned in optimization discussions, is an exotic 2d4 bludgeoning weapon with an expanded crit range (19-20), the flail's bonus to disarm attempts, and the ability to make free AoO-less disarm attempts on a crit. Note that disarms can also be used to make an opponent drop their spell component pouch, holy symbol, or handheld magic item, making it useful against casters too.

Consider the following numbers:

Spoiler: Some numbers

Show

The following assumes starting scores of 16 strength, 14 dexterity, and 16 constitution, as well as 10 in all mental stats (so, 32 point buy). The flind gnoll has a single level in barbarian, the other races have three, making all of them ECL 3 characters (because it's obvious flinds don't deserve +1 LA). Damage calculations assume all characters are power attacking for max damage and use a greatsword. If the characters are using a one-handed weapon with a shield, or not power attacking, the flind's advantages only grow because power attack is a comparatively smaller part of its damage output. I didn't run any numbers on two-weapon fighting, but can only assume the flind has an edge there too.

HP:
Flind: 34 (8+4.5+6.5+3x5)
Human: 34 (12+6.5+6.5+3x3)
Orc: 34 (12+6.5+6.5+3x3)
Water orc: 37 (12+6.5+6.5+3x4)

AC:
Flind: Armor + 5 (+2 natural, +3 dex)
Human, orc, water orc: Armor +2 (+2 dex)

Skills:
Flind: 14 (8+2+4)
Human: 30 (20+5+5)
Orc: 18 (12+3+3)
Water orc: 18 (12+3+3)

Damage:
Flind: 20 (2d6+9+4) at +6 (2+6-2)
Human: 17 (2d6+4+6) at +3 (3+3-3)
Orc: 20 (2d6+7+6) at +5 (3+5-3)
Water orc: 20 (2d6+7+6) at +5 (3+5-3)

Alternatively, the flind can use a two-handed flindbar build which deals 2 less damage per hit, grants occasional free disarm attempts, and deals bludgeoning rather than slashing damage.

Furthermore, the flind gets longer rages (though the others will have more starting next level) and has better Fortitude saving throws.


As can be seen here, even when compared to something like a water orc the flind holds up relatively well. It lacks certain tasty racial feats (something something headlong rush) and has less skill points and HP, but hits more often and enjoys superior AC. The flindbar build sacrifices damage for utility against equipment-using foes and is not without merits either.

At higher levels, the flind's HP and skills begin to catch up with the water orc's, which hopefully compensates for the latter getting class features earlier and having an easier time entering PrCs. The human is obviously still a prime pick thanks to its free feat.

Considering all of this, I think the flind gnoll is balanced at +0 LA. It's playable and makes certain interesting playstyles slightly more viable.

[ViperMagnum357]

Flind Gnoll: if you are playing this, it is almost certainly to play a medium Humanoid with good physical abilities, 30 ft speed and no penalties. Water Orc gets you good abilities with no adjustment, and there are other races with better natural AC or Dex, so the draw is having a nice package with no penalties, while remaining available for Humanoid shenanigans and being viable for Half-Minotaur.

Net +12 abilities with no penalties would break even on 3 RHD, and make up a solid bonus on 2 RHD. +2 natural AC is on par, Darkvision is expected, Gnoll bonus is negligible, and Flindbar familiarity is nice if niche. Not much else to say-the net abilities with no penalties + some natural AC on medium Humanoid with no speed penalty is the draw, and there are no bells and whistles to speak of.

I am looking at a weak to solid LA +0. Certainly playable, and possibly attractive to a brawler, but not balanced at extra LA and certainly not worth the 2 assigned by WOTC.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I concur with -0* for the glaistig, and +0 for the flind gnoll.

[liquidformat]

unlike all the others, and we usually judge by ignoring the condition.

But we don't normally ignore the condition, we look at how easy it is to overcome the condition. In the case of not being able to speak it takes one item from MC that is 500gp. For no hands, we have arguments all the time since there are straight forward ways to overcome, grafts and magic items, but none of them are cheap or easily come by. For strange body shape we often note it but mostly ignore it since we are rarely talking more than 500gp. In the only real case similar to this one, which was the dryad we chose +1 because it had powerful sla but gave it a * since even with acorn of travel you have a major hurdle to overcome.

In this case of Glaistig, even without the issue of being within 300' of a specific body of water that is not an ocean or in your example a location that is within that listed space; they are still rather under powered. Suggestion is their only sla that isn't a throw away in a level or two and beguiling song while having a potentially crazy radius doesn't scale so drops off in usefulness quickly and is only useable if you never leave 300' of your water source. Altogether I don't see Glaistig being +0 without some major improvements...

Gnoll, Flind

So conclusion, get rid of regular gnoll and make Flind Gnoll the regular one? They sound like a solid +0, though taking gnoll ferocity actually gives them a bit of an advantage in the damage department over the water orc...

An interesting point for both Gnoll Ferocity and Centaur trample is that they specifically call out adding them to other similar creatures.

[No brains]

What if a glastig puts its pond in a portable hole?

[InvisibleBison]

What if a glastig puts its pond in a portable hole?

I think once you've removed it from the ground it's not really a pond anymore.