Are the demigods stuffed?

[thereaper]

Given that The Dark One doesn't have enough worshippers to survive into the next world, would that also imply that the Demigods are in the same boat? By their very nature, they almost certainly have fewer worshippers than The Dark One.

[Whispri]

Maybe not, they may be short on worshippers in comparison to the Dark One, but they do have more believers, on account of being part of a pantheon. Whether or not that's enough is another matter, but the Dark One stands alone.

[Mad Humanist]

Thor seems to be referring to stores of fat more than anything else.

Still I wonder if it also depends on whether they harvest the souls or not. Maybe some Gods who want to destroy the world would specifically want to deprive the Dark One (and perhaps Hel) of their souls from this world.

[Anymage]

This is admittedly unsupported headcanon, highly specific versions of existing gods might merge into the larger, more general case during the downtime between worlds. The god of runecraft and other dwarven magic might merge with Odin once the concept of dwarves and their related concepts stops being a distinct thing.

The fact that the demigods we have seen haven't included any clear throwbacks means that any ones based on world specific ideas are indeed stuffed, and the fact that Thor explicitly mentioned gods not making it through the downtime means that getting stuffed has happened. And even in my headcanon version, having your memories and personality only exist in a small part of someone else's head isn't exactly a good outcome.

[factotum]

I'm pretty sure the Dark One's problem is that he hasn't had *time* to build up belief, not that he doesn't have enough worshippers. The demigods have presumably been around for a lot longer than he has, and are also sponsored by an existing pantheon, so they don't have to "go it alone" during the transition to the new world.

[Zholvar]

Given that Thor says Gods have faded away even with more worshippers than TDO, i would guess some of them are in trouble, others not. Mostly depending on "time" to be established as given in the "Nutrition" explaination. I would say that demigods that started before Stickworld should be better of than those who have ascended.

Furhter we don't know what (if any) benefits are there in being a (demi)god that belongs to a pantheon, for example Thor worshippers know of Odin, Loki and the others. Particulary interesting would be to get more info on the 12 Gods, which we only see as pantheistic worhsip so far, or have we seen a "rat only" worshipper?

Another question is if "endangered (demi)gods" know of that danger.

[D.One]

I believe maybe some demigods might die out with this world and some might survive, given that some of them (Dvalin being my first bet) might be from this world and thus might not have enough "god nourishment" to survive.

That said, I don't really believe it's a matter of being a full god or a demigod, because I see that as "god levels", and I see Thor's remark about surviving this world or not as "god's stock of godly food".

The demigods have fewer god levels, and that's why they are called "demigods". They are gods, just weaker in terms of power. DnD 3.0 Deities & Demigods had a systen of Divine Rank, that went from 0 to 20, and the ones with 1 to 5 ranks were called "demigods" because they were less powerful, but they were still gods, with clerics and granting spells and a divine domain and all that god stuff. It was just that their "god level" was low. That said, they might still have accumulated more "god food" or "god fat" to survive the transition beetween worlds.

[Synesthesy]

Being a demigod and being a newly ascended god are two different unrelated situations, for what we know.

[Mad Humanist]

Being a demigod and being a newly ascended god are two different unrelated situations, for what we know.

Yeah it's possible some of the demi-gods go right back to the beginning. So many details are elided over. The text is not a technical text. It's a story.

[Goblin_Priest]

From what I gather, all the ascended gods would wither away. The world is too young, still.

[Rrmcklin]

I've been assuming they wouldn't, but who knows. Of course, for the purposes of the story (and meta-wise, knowing this world won't be destroyed) it doesn't actually matter what would happen to them.

Being a demigod and being a newly ascended god are two different unrelated situations, for what we know.

Davlin is both a demigod and ascended mortal god. I would assume most if not all of the demi-gods were the same, because there has been absolutely no mention of them when discussing the Snarl. Or phrased another way all ascended gods might not be demi-gods, but all demi-gods are probably ascended mortals.

From what I gather, all the ascended gods would wither away. The world is too young, still.

You can't say that, either. All we know for sure is that the Dark One, specifically, probably won't make it. It tells us nothing about how the elven gods, or any others would do.

[D.One]

I've been assuming they wouldn't, but who knows. Of course, for the purposes of the story (and meta-wise, knowing this world won't be destroyed) it doesn't actually matter what happens to them.

Quite that.

You can't say that, either. All we know for sure is that the Dark One, specifically, probably won't make it. It tells us nothing about how the elven gods, or any others would do.

The key point seems to be recently ascended or previously ascended. TDO seems to be young, even by this worlds standards, and has the disadvantage of not having the "shared belief" of a pantheon.

Davlin is both a demigod and ascended mortal god. I would assume most if not all of the demi-gods were the same, because there has been absolutely no mention of them when discussing the Snarl. Or phrased another way all ascended gods might not be demi-gods, but all demi-gods are probably ascended mortals.

We can't be sure of that. In fact, the status as demigods only says that they are not very powerful and/or influential among the gods.

[Rrmcklin]

Quite that.



The key point seems to be recently ascended or previously ascended. TDO seems to be young, even by this worlds standards, and has the disadvantage of not having the "shared belief" of a pantheon.



We can't be sure of that. In fact, the status as demigods only says that they are not very powerful and/or influential among the gods.

The key point seems to be having enough of a following that a good gets enough of the four things to last the "drought". Time is a factor in that, but what actually matters.

See the point above, if Thor has seen gods with more followers than the Dark One not make it, it seems very unlikely that someone like Davlin or any of the other demigods who by their very nature have very little following and power would be able to make it, even if they've been around longer.

[RelentlessImp]

It's somewhat explained but you gotta reach for it. Basically, being part of a Pantheon allows Belief and Worship to be shared, generally, among other members of that Pantheon, thus newly ascended Demigods could possibly survive on the dregs of a multi-million worshiper Pantheon that they receive as overflow. The Northern and Twelve Gods seem to be worshiped as a whole, as a multitheistic pantheon, while The Dark One is a pantheon of one, and thus can only survive on the Belief and Worship of the individuals who worship him. Any Demigods that are an accepted part of the Northern or Twelve Gods Pantheon are likely receiving a good amount of worship from those who don't directly worship them, but do worship the pantheon.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Given that The Dark One doesn't have enough worshippers to survive into the next world, would that also imply that the Demigods are in the same boat? By their very nature, they almost certainly have fewer worshippers than The Dark One.

Surtur and Thyrm I could see being demigods powerful enough to go to each new world. The rest no

[Windscion]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

[Rrmcklin]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

That assumes they know how the process works and/or only care about themselves.

[Snails]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

My Bardic Knowledge skill says The Giant cheated fair and square.

Because this logic requires a god to stand up in the moot and say "What a minute! Before we get on to that dramatic vote which will propel the protagonists forward, let me gab for 15 minutes of exposition about stuff you do not know, we never told you, and will confuse the Readers."

So, yes, your argument makes a great deal of sense in hindsight. But it would have Turned Up The Suck on the story in the moment where it mattered.

[RatElemental]

Thor seems to be referring to stores of fat more than anything else.

Still I wonder if it also depends on whether they harvest the souls or not. Maybe some Gods who want to destroy the world would specifically want to deprive the Dark One (and perhaps Hel) of their souls from this world.

The fact that they do 'harvest' the souls is the entire reason Heimdall voted the way he did (to protect them from annihilation) and the entire point of Hel's plan, the central conflict of this book, as well as an extra bit of stakes added on top of the whole world being destroyed thing.

I think it's safe to say that they do claim the souls.

[The Pilgrim]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

It depends on the Demigod.

My headcanon on the issue is that Belief is the basic thing that grants Gods survivality. Worship keeps them mentally stable, Dedication grants them Power, and Souls are needed to keep the Outer Planes going. But the key point is that everything on the Outer Planes is made on ideas, so the basic thing you need to keep existing is that people have ideas about you. Belief.

The Dark One gets a lot of Worship and Dedication, which makes him powerful. But is lacking in Belief, as he is barely known outside goblinoid societies. Therefore, his prospects for survivality are lower than Demigods from the Three Pantheons, who may have less Worship and Dedication than The Dark One, but have a lot more Belief as everybody knows them. As soon as the world is destroyed, the idea of The Dark One existing is not powerful enough to survive on it's own until a new world is built and populated and production of Belief is resumed.

Then take, for example, Dvalin. While Dvalin belongs to the Northern Pantheon and gets more Worship and Dedication than Thrym or Surtur (on account of there being more dwarves than Fire or Ice Giants), he gets far less Belief because he is barely known outside dwarven lands. While Thrym and Surtur, as members of Thor's Rogues Gallery, are widely known everywhere, dwarven lands included, and have more presence in popular culture, even though as villains. Therefore, Thrym and Surtur have greater prospects of survivality than Dvalin, and probably have been around for several worlds, if not all, while Dvalin was ascended at the begining of this World and might not survive the transition to the next one. Likewise, the Elven Gods, even though being part of the Western Pantheon, do get way less Belief outside of Elven Lands than any "proper" deity or demigod from the Western Pantheon.

(But this is just my interpretation from Thor's description of the process)

[Zholvar]

That assumes they know how the process works and/or only care about themselves.

Yes, but given that Hel & Thyrm talk openly about the last World, and the future in the next, seems to indicate that at least some of them have knowledge/asume they make it. But yeah if you're shure you will make it, why not vote on destruction.

[Windscion]

That assumes they know how the process works and/or only care about themselves.

Knowing how the process works is iffy, but could easily be part of the orientation process for newly ascended mortals. We know, for example, that the "new" elven gods vote with the western gods, which presumably means as full members. So ascended mortal does not automatically mean demigod.
Care about themselves? Thrym and Surtur are unlikely to give a toss about anyone else. Also, Thrym could hardly stand as Hel's consort in the next world if he didn't expect to survive. (Yeah, Hel might be lying her spectral trailing hindparts off, so not exactly definitive.)
The rules of the moot are almost certainly very very old, at least in the basic outline. Use of demigods to break ties is part of those rules, even if it doesn't come up very often. This suggests to me a stable supply of demigods. (Also, except for Dvalin, they seemed tied to roles rather than being exalted mortals.)
My main point is, I expect the demigods are going to be okay whenever the world ends.

[KorvinStarmast]

Are the demigods stuffed?

The Snarl, a god eating abomination, sure hopes so. It will make them more tasty.
(It's sorta near Thanksgiving, so stuff/stuffing triggers my salivation for that full meal on Turkey Day ... )

[Rrmcklin]

Knowing how the process works is iffy, but could easily be part of the orientation process for newly ascended mortals. We know, for example, that the "new" elven gods vote with the western gods, which presumably means as full members. So ascended mortal does not automatically mean demigod.
Care about themselves? Thrym and Surtur are unlikely to give a toss about anyone else. Also, Thrym could hardly stand as Hel's consort in the next world if he didn't expect to survive. (Yeah, Hel might be lying her spectral trailing hindparts off, so not exactly definitive.)
The rules of the moot are almost certainly very very old, at least in the basic outline. Use of demigods to break ties is part of those rules, even if it doesn't come up very often. This suggests to me a stable supply of demigods. (Also, except for Dvalin, they seemed tied to roles rather than being exalted mortals.)
My main point is, I expect the demigods are going to be okay whenever the world ends.

I never said ascended mortal automatically meant demigod. That's clearly not the case given the Dark One.

Davlin and the other demigods of the North vote with the Northern Pantheon, as a part of the Northern Pantheon, even if they're only the tie breaker. Them being demigods doesn't somehow mean they aren't a part of the Northern Pantheon, and it tells us nothing about the Elven Gods status (I imagine some are full gods, but others might not be so).

You also talk about the Godsmoot as if the rules are unchanging, even though we know that's untrue. Hel mentions keeping up with procedural changes, and Loki mentions regretting that "no-backsies" rule. Yes, a demigod tie breaker rule exists, but it's existence by no means implies that it was one of the original rules. It could have been, or it could have been demigods eventually appeared and that rule was created to factor them into the Godsmoot's procedures.

And my main point is that we can't actually be sure what would happen to them, but it also doesn't matter because this world isn't going to end.

[Windscion]

You also talk about the Godsmoot as if the rules are unchanging, even though we know that's untrue.... Yes, a demigod tie breaker rule exists, but it's existence by no means implies that it was one of the original rules. It could have been, or it could have been demigods eventually appeared and that rule was created to factor them into the Godsmoot's procedures.

Nope, I sure don't talk as if the rules are invariant. I talk as if the rules are of unknown age, but:

#1 Any given rule is likely, during a run of a million worlds, not to be super recent. I simply considered this obvious fact too obvious to belabour. But feel free to assume that all but a few rules are recent innovations while I explain why that's a really bad asssumption.
Let K be the number of worlds elapsed since a given rule was put in place. The range of possible values of K is 0 to at least 1 million. The expected value of K much more than one. In fact, it's much more than 1000. Close to a million, in fact, since rules were more likely to change early rather than later as they found what worked and what did not.

#2 Even if the demigods-as-tiebreakers rule is brand spanking new (K=0 from above), it still implies an expectation that demigods are available, which is more likely if, in fact, the demigods usually persist.
Since this statement carries a background of mathematical logic, I guess I have to belabour this point as well. Let N be the # of demigods.
If N=0, rule is useless. If N=1, rules turns the demigod into the designated tiebreaker, a symbolically prestigious position. Only if N>1 does the rule make sense. Therefore the assumption is that multple DGs are available, which argues toward the persistence of demidivinities through transitions.

And the demigods vs ascended mortals was brought up by others, so I took a shot at that.

PS: I should also note that the gods talking about stuff doesn't imply it is recent, since Thor remembers everyone who ever worshipped him. Gods have perfect memories, so Loki regretting "no backsies" doesn't mean this is only the 1st ... or 57346th ... time it has come up.

[Rrmcklin]

Nope, I sure don't talk as if the rules are invariant. I talk as if the rules are of unknown age, but:

#1 Any given rule is likely, during a run of a million worlds, not to be super recent. I simply considered this obvious fact too obvious to belabour. But feel free to assume that all but a few rules are recent innovations while I explain why that's a really bad asssumption.
Let K be the number of worlds elapsed since a given rule was put in place. The range of possible values of K is 0 to at least 1 million. The expected value of K much more than one. In fact, it's much more than 1000. Close to a million, in fact, since rules were more likely to change early rather than later as they found what worked and what did not.

#2 Even if the demigods-as-tiebreakers rule is brand spanking new (K=0 from above), it still implies an expectation that demigods are available, which is more likely if, in fact, the demigods usually persist.
Since this statement carries a background of mathematical logic, I guess I have to belabour this point as well. Let N be the # of demigods.
If N=0, rule is useless. If N=1, rules turns the demigod into the designated tiebreaker, a symbolically prestigious position. Only if N>1 does the rule make sense. Therefore the assumption is that multple DGs are available, which argues toward the persistence of demidivinities through transitions.

And the demigods vs ascended mortals was brought up by others, so I took a shot at that.

PS: I should also note that the gods talking about stuff doesn't imply it is recent, since Thor remembers everyone who ever worshipped him. Gods have perfect memories, so Loki regretting "no backsies" doesn't mean this is only the 1st ... or 57346th ... time it has come up.

The point isn't that the demigods rulings are "brand new" the point is your argument of "The Godsmoots rules are old, and they have rules for demigods, so the same demigods must have existed in the beginning" doesn't hold water. We know they can and have added rules so your can't reasonably argue for a point of age.

For that matter, they can have rules for demigods without it implying anything about the chances of demigods surviving. They can make rules for demigods because they consider it reasonably likely a given world will create some new demigods that they'll have to integrate into the system. It doesn't necessarily imply any given existing demigod has existed before, or will survive until the new world.

But, you seem intend on arguing against things I never said, and misinterpreting my points, so I think I'm done discussing this with you.

[Riftwolf]

Are the demigods stuffed?

The Snarl, a god eating abomination, sure hopes so. It will make them more tasty.
(It's sorta near Thanksgiving, so stuff/stuffing triggers my salivation for that full meal on Turkey Day ... )

Thrym, Demigod of Frozen Turkeys in Snackworld, certainly had the threat of stuffing looming over him. His Stuffing was in fact part of the Doggy-Bagnarok, where Thrym was transformed into Surtr, Demigod of Cooked Turkeys. The transformation was difficult at first as none knew which God could stuff a frozen turkey, but it was much easier once they left it to Thor.

[D.One]

Thrym, Demigod of Frozen Turkeys in Snackworld, certainly had the threat of stuffing looming over him. His Stuffing was in fact part of the Doggy-Bagnarok, where Thrym was transformed into Surtr, Demigod of Cooked Turkeys. The transformation was difficult at first as none knew which God could stuff a frozen turkey, but it was much easier once they left it to Thor.

And now we have a glimpse of how this guys might have been seen in Movie-Snacks-World.

[Goblin_Priest]

You can't say that, either. All we know for sure is that the Dark One, specifically, probably won't make it. It tells us nothing about how the elven gods, or any others would do.

Well, it's a hypothesis. Might be wrong, but seems at least plausible to me.

After all, one of the main contributions of the lore about not being able to survive this world, other than "raise the stakes by eliminating the [next world] solution", is to address the question: "if mortals can ascend and many are known to have ascended in this world, why aren't the pantheons flooded with ascended gods from previous worlds?". "Because they couldn't gather enough reserves and they withered away before new followers could be made".

Since there's no reason to believe that they've made any more reserves in this world than any of the previous ascended gods did, then I'm inclined to opt for the "they aren't any different than the previous ascended gods, and thus they will probably wither away after this world is destroyed".

No, there's no proof that these gods are following the norm, but without proof of deviation from the norm, assuming the norm is pretty fair in my opinion.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Given that The Dark One doesn't have enough worshippers to survive into the next world, would that also imply that the Demigods are in the same boat? By their very nature, they almost certainly have fewer worshippers than The Dark One.

I assumed that part of the issue with TDO's survival chances was that he didn't have a pantheon. Perhaps having worshippers of your pantheon gives you a little bit of Belief and Worship by extension.

Also, aside from the goblins, most people don't even know TDO exists at all. The demigods and ascended elven gods are recognised, even if they don't get as much worship as the primary gods. So TDO is lacking in Belief as well.

Belief and Worship seem to be the strongest long-term sources of power for gods- Dedication goes away too quickly and you need a lot of Souls for Souls to do anything meaningful. So it makes sense that TDO would have trouble if the world was destroyed.

If that's true, the demigods and ascended gods don't have AS MUCH to worry about as TDO, although there's a good chance some still won't make it. I doubt any of the demigods would have voted to destroy the world if it meant they'd die, though.