OOTS #1114 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

They are not her problem. She didn't start it and she deserved freedom.

Seriously, dude. "He started it" is kindergarten-level sense of justice.

Moreover, she didn't even force her brother to gamble.

Arguable. She disguises herself as someone she knew he would trust, told him to bet more than he normally would and then fixed the race.
Add to that te fact that ded parent telling you they have foresight of the future is a perfectly plausible scenario in this universe. Hel, the mother already made a correct prediction once apparently.

You really can't say that the brother only has himself to blame for his loss.

It's all the clan's fault. They can deal with it. And, again, given the pattern, they will likely do so by forcing their women into prostitution.

One point of data is not a pattern.
"Vimes always thought it unfair to call his ancestor kingslayer. It only happened once, it's notlike it was a habit!"

Revenge is arguably a Neutral motivation. Hoar, god of revenge in FR, is Lawful Neutral, for instance...

Yeah and Tzeentch, Warhammer's god of Hope is evil. Justice is a good motivation. Making sure it doesn't happen to oneself again is a neutral motivation, revenge is an evil motivation.

[KorvinStarmast]

Nothing there actually compels the dreamer to act on their dream that I can see, they could just shake it off as a weird dream - it's not the Mindrape spell. And yet, he seems to be getting a free pass in this discussion

But it's kind of like how Haley convinces people to do a variety of things that goes beyond magic. The dream spell would appear to give a huge boost to provide a bluff check, with plusses for a good set up, right?

[The_Weirdo]

Seriously, dude. "He started it" is kindergarten-level sense of justice.

Not even discussing the worthiness of revenge here: in her place, what would you do to ensure your own freedom that is perfect, clean and harms none, bearing in mind that both clans would do everything in their power to ensure you stayed with Ivan? It very much was a problem caused by the clans.

"Vimes always thought it unfair to call his ancestor kingslayer. It only happened once, it's notlike it was a habit!"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ouScrewOneGoat

[Jasder]

Starting a fire doesn't involve noticeable smoke inhalation. Given that Hilgya probably has campfires when traveling or cooking fires at other times it is overwhelmingly likely that she starts fires with Kudzu around and doesn't worry about his lungs from such fires.

Poor the oil, light it, run, no noticeable smoke inhalation. D&D even has cheap flasks of alchemists fire that you can throw from a distance and will reliably light the highly flammable oil they also have in D&D land.

It's not hard at all to escape smoke from starting a fire.

But, start a fire, stand around to kill anyone escaping, THEN smoke inhalation is a thing to worry about.

Additionally, I see no indication in Hilgya walking up and announcing her intent to Murder Durkon (a priest of Thor) that she is in any way worried about the reaction of dwarven society to her acts or about escaping dwarven justice.

True, but waiting to see if the fire doesn't just go out, if it actually works, and just in general any fire that is presumably underground and thus fills the entire place with smoke, might be a bit more severe than just a cook fire.

Her odd blase-ness about killing Durkon is kind of strange when you think about it. I mean, imagine how the order would have reacted if Durkon had been with them as normal, and not trying to unmake the world as a vampire?

[Anarion]

I appreciate the attention to detail in the cube race panel. I think you can even tell that Hilgya is pregnant there. Plus all the neat little bits of jockey clothing that the cube jockeys are wearing.

[ti'esar]

I seriously just cannot stop smiling at everything about the gelatinous cube races.

Also, it's kind of interesting (though it might just be an OOU visual cue) that Hilgya seems to be wearing her clan colors even though she hates them?

[Basement Cat]

Gelatinous Cube racing....

Now that's one I wouldn't have come up with if I had a thousand years.

[The_Weirdo]

I seriously just cannot stop smiling at everything about the gelatinous cube races.

Also, it's kind of interesting (though it might just be an OOU visual cue) that Hilgya seems to be wearing her clan colors even though she hates them?

"My helm is still mine, especially if it's magical. Screw the new destitutes, I'm free and, now, I won anyways, so I decide what the helm means."

[Dragolord]

They are not her problem. She didn't start it and she deserved freedom.

Okay, that's... a point of view, to be sure.
Let's reduce this down to base principles: if Hilgya had stabbed some random woman to death, possibly for trying to pick her pocket to feed her starving baby, when she could have just as easily turned her over to the law... would you think that the baby's slow, painful, death from starvation was the mother's fault?

[Themrys]

I am glad Hilgya isnt married anymore. Not exactly the best way to do it but no reason to stay with someone if you really dont want to.

How is cheating the family who force-married (ie. attempted to rape you by proxy) you, with the explicitly mentioned used of crossbows and padlocks, no less, out of their entire fortune, and using their money to pay the divorce lawyers NOT the best way to get out of a marriage? I cannot see the flaw in this. Those who deserve punishment get it, the woman walks free. And apparently her mother is dead already, so won't suffer from it.

Admittedly, men who rape women, or cause women to be raped by a third party deserve death, but I am willing to settle for destitution. Also begins with a D, after all.

And she is right, setting fire to the clan hall would have been terrible for her son's lungs. Priorities. Sure, setting fire to a clan hall, possibly after slaughtering all the offending males, may look flashy and awesome, but someone gotta think of the child.

(Nice reference to Kriemhild there, by the way.)

[Fyraltari]

in her place, what would you do to ensure your own freedom that is perfect, clean and harms none, bearing in mind that both clans would do everything in their power to ensure you stayed with Ivan? It very much was a problem caused by the clans.

Too many variables here, what were the reasons for the wedding? Can the same objectives be met without the wedding? What is my relationship with my family? How high is my position within the clan? Ditto for Ivan. Are forced marriage closer to be the norm or a statistical abberation? Are there pre-existing groups fighting against it? Can I afford a divorce procedure? How likely is it to work in my favor? Can I sustain myself without my family's support (any political clout ?)? Do I have a particular life-goal? Do I know someone whose couch I could crash? Can I gather support for my cause?

I can tell you what I absolutely would and wouldn't do (or would not consider doing right, I'm not gonna pretend I have never failed my own moral standards):
-Explaining the situation to Ivan is a must. If only to keep him out of my air while I act. MaybeI couldmake an ally out of him.
-Harming innocents is no-no. This is my ****, I'm not dragging anybody else into it.
-Securing whatever advantage the wedding was supposed to bring would be ideal. My family would have no reason to force the wedding anymore and it would add to my standing within the clan thus lessening the likelihood of it happening again.
-Getting a divorce seems like the best option. If it isn't doable separation remains (I could probably get Ivan to agree to an open marriage). If producing an heir was the intended outcome. Well they would know it's my baby, but nothing more.

[The_Weirdo]

Okay, that's... a point of view, to be sure.
Let's reduce this down to base principles: if Hilgya had stabbed some random woman to death, possibly for trying to pick her pocket to feed her starving baby, when she could have just as easily turned her over to the law... would you think that the baby's slow, painful, death from starvation was the mother's fault?

Do you really think there's no difference of, one, proportion, two, gravity of the crime, three, concept *of* crime, four, consequences, five, just about anything else here?

Is the mother trying to get Hilgya raped, repeatedly?

Did the clan try to get Hilgya raped, repeatedly, so that it could feed a baby?

And yes, let's please stop pretending that this isn't what the clans tried to do; Hilgya happened to be lucky that Ivan isn't a rapist and/or didn't want sex, etc., but you know what does usually happen in forced marriages? They are usually consummated. And you know the word for having sex with someone you don't want to have sex with under threat of force, right? It starts with an "R" and rhymes with another word for "Monkey".

But okay: your point was my principle, no matter how utterly out of whack with Hilgya's actual situation it is.

Answer one: for a petty theft such as this? No, she doesn't get to kill the mother, and reasonable people among us would say she doesn't get to kill the mother; these same reasonable people would point out that Hilgya does get to do whatever is necessary to get out of a forced marriage.

Answer two: yes, in that the mother started it. The baby would, at this point, be entitled to haunting Hilgya and/or haunting the people that created a system that allowed such a scenario in the first place.

Pick whichever one you like, because their application to the situation at hand is VERY limited either ways.

Snip.

So, basically, if push truly came to shove, you'd be willing to cede your right.

By all means, that is very much your call, but I am very much against condemning Hilgya for choosing not to.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, as excited as I am for this thread to slowly devolve into a thinly veiled morally justified debate over Hilgya's arranged marriage, the comic itself was great.

Well, that didn't take long at all.

[The_Weirdo]

Well, that didn't take long at all.

And she didn't even kill anyone. More and more, I get the feeling that some people here wouldn't be happy unless she decided to stay with Ivan and be miserable. I wonder what they'd say if Ivan wanted to consummate it too...

[Kish]

And she didn't even kill anyone. More and more, I get the feeling that some people here wouldn't be happy unless she decided to stay with Ivan and be miserable.

1) You're still the one who keeps starting these arguments.
2) Apes aren't monkeys.
3) Ook.

[The_Weirdo]

2) Apes aren't monkeys.
3) Ook.

2) Wellll, one of the definitions in Wikitionary is any primate other than a human, I checked...

3) Ooh-ah-ah.

4) So, I cannot help but notice that we got to the point where we are typing monkey noises at one another. This may have gotten out of hand.

[Fyraltari]

It starts with an "R" and rhymes with another name for "Monkey".

Spoiler: Bad idea.

Show

So, basically, if push truly came to shove, you'd be willing to cede your right.

Different threshold for different things. I would trade my right not to be raped for a much higher price than my right to stay home and that one for a much higher than my right to say a few words at an altar.

And I would still not trade that last one for anything less than "it's the only way to stop [person I like] from being a beggar".

But yes the fundamental difference between our world views is that I don't consider anyone has the moral imperative to do anything to defend their rights. Sometimes there are no easy solutions. Sometime life just sucks. Deal with it.

By all means, that is very much your call, but I am very much against condemning Hilgya for choosing not to.

The only thing I am condemning hilgya for are:
-being an accomplice to murder.
-being an attempted murderer.
-Making the wrog assumptions about a sexual/romantic partner.

Until we (and if we ever) learn more about the Firehelms I remain undecided about wether or not swindling them of their money was the right call.

[The_Weirdo]

Different threshold for different things. I would trade my right not to be raped for a much higher price than my right to stay home and that one for a much higher than my right to say a few words at an altar.

And I would still not trade that last one for anything less than "it's the only way to stop [person I like] from being a beggar".

But yes the fundamental difference between our world views is that I don't consider anyone has the moral imperative to do anything to defend their rights. Sometimes there are no easy solutions. Sometime life just sucks. Deal with it.

Well, deal with it she did. And now life sucks for other people.

But yes, we do have said fundamental difference.

The only thing I am condemning hilgya for are:
-being an accomplice to murder.
-being an attempted murderer.
-Making the wrog assumptions about a sexual/romantic partner.

Until we (and if we ever) learn more about the Firehelms I remain undecided about wether or not swindling them of their money was the right call.

Oh, well, even she seems to regret the Ivan thing. As for Nale, dittoish. And the wrong assumptions aren't exactly a huge moral failing.

As for the Firehelms... They oppressed. That seals what they are: they are oppressors. So they deserve it and worse.

[D.One]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be one The Giant's points to show that evil doesn't need to be unlikable (as in, we don't need to have all villains be a bastard no one identifies with). Many of the villains so far had some redeeming or excusing situation or characteristic. And yet, good and evil, at least for the mortal characters, has been emphasized as being one's choise.

Hilgya choose to try to murder her husband before running away (not kill in self defense, murder)
Hilgya choose to go after Durkon with the intent to kill him, even before knowing anything about the vampire.
Hilgya choose to bankrupt her entire clan as revenge (not to get the funds to sue for divorce, she admits that was a colateral benefit), and she only didn't burn Ivan's clan to death because it could endanger the one only person she cares about.

She choose evil. She might repent, she might redeem herself at some point and become a better person. But, for all she've shown, she hasn't yet.

Making excuses to try to make her not evil dimishes her as a character, because all she's done is part of the construction of her persona. We are allowed to like her, even if she's evil. We don't have to make her not evil in order to be legit to like her. Please. Embrace liking an evil character. That doesn't mean the one who likes her is evil. Only that, evil or not, she's interesting as a character.

[The_Weirdo]

Hilgya choose to bankrupt her entire clan, you know, the one that set her up to be raped, as revenge

I kinda figured I should add that part. You know, for the sake of fairness.

[Fyraltari]

"Humans" was Elan's fourth answer. I'm guessing
1)Pupeteers
2)Bards
3)Adventurers.

Any idea?

[Shining Wrath]

"Humans" was Elan's fourth answer. I'm guessing
1)Pupeteers
2)Bards
3)Adventurers.

Any idea?

Puppeteers, right handed people, blond men.

[JumboWheat01]

This is how you do a Trickery Cleric. I love it.

[Leirus]

So I understand that Hilgya´s plan had two steps:

1.- Steal all the money her family had to pay for the lawyers (and becoming rich besides, one would think)
2.- Torch Ivan´s family clan hall to avoid them contesting the divorce

But she did not need to take the second step because the relatives of Ivan were too ashamed of their newly destitute politic family to contest the divorce.

But then she mentions the arson plan as "her first idea" as if it was an alternative to the bankruptcy plan, so I am a bit confused here. Did she plan to burn her own clan hall instead? To what end would that serve?
Am I overthinking this?

[The Extinguisher]

They're doing it in the worst possible manner, and also probably being far too hyperbolic and extreme about it, but The_Weirdo does have some good points. Again, they're surrounded by layers of over the top aggression, but they're there. Sometimes you gotta break some eggs to make omelettes, and complacency is cooperation. Sure maybe not everyone in her clan agrees with forced marriage, but they certainly aren't doing anything to stop it.

Also:

Let say you work for Ecks Incorporated a globe-spinning company than currently provides 1,000,000 peoplewith steady well paying jobs and good working environment in these times of crisis. They do this by selling (for a reasonnable price) a delicious but healthy food that has become their trademark and nobody else knows the recipe. Then your direct superior fire you to protect his nephew who made a mistake that cost the company money. Jobless and pennyless you cannot afford to go to court. However by pure chance you stumbled upon the recipe sometime before and could now send a copy of it to the competition. As Ecks' entire business modelis based on this one recipe you know that doing so would cripple them maybe even bankrut them. The one who fired you would lose his job but so would most of your 1,000,000 former colleagues.
Since selling the recipe to the competition would be industrial espionage, you would have to give it anonymously and not be rewarded in any way shape or form.

Would you call doing it your right?

Dont do this. Dont compare rape and violence against women to losing a job if you cant think of things beyond economical terms then you need to try harder.

(anyway the correct answer here is share that recipe with the million people that work for the company and let the workers take over the company)

[Fyraltari]

Dont do this. Dont compare rape and violence against women to losing a job if you cant think of things beyond economical terms then you need to try harder.

I purposely avoided crime because it was the principle of harming the non-guilty party that I wanted to challenge, the nature of the wrong is here irrelevant. It is extremely hard to keep a cool head when talking about rape which is why I chose a more "mundane" kind of misdeed.

The intent of the example was not to compare joblessness to rape.

[Jasder]

Too many variables here, what were the reasons for the wedding? Can the same objectives be met without the wedding? What is my relationship with my family? How high is my position within the clan? Ditto for Ivan. Are forced marriage closer to be the norm or a statistical abberation? Are there pre-existing groups fighting against it? Can I afford a divorce procedure? How likely is it to work in my favor? Can I sustain myself without my family's support (any political clout ?)? Do I have a particular life-goal? Do I know someone whose couch I could crash? Can I gather support for my cause?

I can tell you what I absolutely would and wouldn't do (or would not consider doing right, I'm not gonna pretend I have never failed my own moral standards):
-Explaining the situation to Ivan is a must. If only to keep him out of my air while I act. MaybeI couldmake an ally out of him.
-Harming innocents is no-no. This is my ****, I'm not dragging anybody else into it.
-Securing whatever advantage the wedding was supposed to bring would be ideal. My family would have no reason to force the wedding anymore and it would add to my standing within the clan thus lessening the likelihood of it happening again.
-Getting a divorce seems like the best option. If it isn't doable separation remains (I could probably get Ivan to agree to an open marriage). If producing an heir was the intended outcome. Well they would know it's my baby, but nothing more.

Sure, there are better ways you can deal with the issue, but there are also worse ways. I don't think Hilgya is Chaotic Good, (although she might get there before the end) I just don't think she's Chaotic Evil. Neutrality is as vast a range as Good or Evil, and if you don't need to be a Solar to be good or Xykon to be evil, then I don't see why Hilgya, despite some less than good acts, can't be Neutral. Neutral guys, it's a great alignment.

[Dragolord]

(anyway the correct answer here is share that recipe with the million people that work for the company and let the workers take over the company)

That isn't really how business works. You'd end up with more or less the same outcome as selling it to someone else, but more people would be ruined in the lawsuits.

Answer two: yes, in that the mother started it. The baby would, at this point, be entitled to haunting Hilgya and/or haunting the people that created a system that allowed such a scenario in the first place.

Jesus wept, man. Can you not read what you're typing?

Well, that didn't take long at all.

You know, you're right. I'm out of this argument.

Have fun insisting that murder is justifiable if it's against the patriarchy, or whatever you're getting at, you incredibly aptly-named Person Who Is Wrong On The Internet.

[The_Weirdo]

Jesus wept, man. Can you not read what you're typing?

See, now, I did give two answers. You chose the most violent one. But I did it to make a point: your comparison was out of whack.

Have fun insisting that murder is justifiable if it's against the patriarchy, or whatever you're getting at, you incredibly aptly-named Person Who Is Wrong On The Internet.

Funny how I never mentioned that and people keep bringing that up. It's almost as if Hilgya's situation has some relation with that...

And I aim to be aptly-named.

On the italicized part: Citation needed.

Neutral guys, it's a great alignment.

Your ad here.

[The Extinguisher]

I purposely avoided crime because it was the principle of harming the non-guilty party that I wanted to challenge, the nature of the wrong is here irrelevant. It is extremely hard to keep a cool head when talking about rape which is why I chose a more "mundane" kind of misdeed.

The intent of the example was not to compare joblessness to rape.

Cool but intent doesnt actually matter when what you did was compare joblessness to rape

like there are other ways to talk about this then making it about money

That isn't really how business works. You'd end up with more or less the same outcome as selling it to someone else, but more people would be ruined in the lawsuits.

i really dont care about how businesses get run honestly