General Anime/Manga Discussion 15: The Beach Episode

[Pendulous]

Can't speak for Re:zero but yes, it might be dumb comedy but konosuba is fun. Also, I have fond memories of Ouran High (don't pretend reverse harem isn't harem) and I liked Seitokai no Ichizon well enough, despite it being a bit childish.

Edit: also, why do people never mention Digimon when talking about isekai?

Or Inuyasha.

For modern ones, I liked Problem Children Are Coming From Another World, Aren't They? Unfortunately, it is the quintessential example of "the anime just advertises for the manga/light novel", since it only lasts ten episode. But it's a fun ride.

[GloatingSwine]

While all your broader points are correct, it's not even the second harem series from that author- Urusei Yatsura (nearly as big as Ranma & Inuyasha) started almost a decade earlier, and Maison Ikkoku was at least popular enough to have an anime & a movie.

And although I'd hold the second Urusei Yatsura movie (Beautiful Dreamer, now on Amazon Prime!) up as one of the finest movies I've ever seen, sharing the rewatchability of Fifth Element/Airplane with the polish & quality of Amalie/Three Billboards; the series isn't much different from or better than modern harem shows. It's openly aimed at male Japanese college students, so I might just be too far off to appreciate it. I think I gave up after one episode of Maison Ikkoku.

Neither of those are harem comedies at all.

Maison Ikkoku is a straight romantic comedy with a slight love triangle (albeit completely one sided from the third point) to add some drama in the second half. There are no other recurring female romantic interests.

Urusei Yatsura is the prototype magical girlfriend series where even the love triangle element gets done with by the end of the first arc, and whilst there are lots of other female characters who show up for Moroboshi to be comically ineptly leering at, none of them are interested in him in the slightest.

Harem series aren't just "there are multiple female characters", but "there are multiple female characters with a shared, possibly unresolved, romantic interest in protagonist-kun".

In the early days (Ranma 1/2, Tenchi Muyo!) it was the basis of a joke, for some reason protagonist-kun could neither accept or escape this situation.

But now it's just wish fulfilment for otaku incels with a greater or lesser amount of pornification because every good h-game has a harem route and that's their only experience of women. And Isekai* is also very often about wish fulfilment, and so finds harems super-difficult to avoid. (Hey, you know that premise where the modern Japanese SDF has to defend against an invasion from a parallel magical world? It's a lolicon harem now, enjoy!)



* Modern Isekai is largely degenerate because of where a lot of it comes from. Publishers trawl what is essentially the Japanese equivalent of Archiveofourown (I can't remember what it's called) and scrape up anything that looks like they can shove it out as a light novel series.

Because most of the writers on there are very young with little real life experience and little to no editorial oversight, they produce a lot of, frankly, crap driven only by their knowledge of tropes of anime and videogames not real life. So they just repeat the anime tropes in a super wish-fulfilly way because that's their only frame of life reference.

(It's not just Isekai. Any time you see a laconic disaffected lone wanderer fantasy protagonist who is just so cool you guys, there's a really good chance he's not like that because there's a really good reason for the story to have him be like that, but because Guts is cool in the Black Swordsman arc**)



** The point of the story is that what Guts is doing is not cool and is actually really self destructive and it's only when he stops doing it and accepts others that his life starts getting better again.

[Aotrs Commander]

Dude, I get that you don't think much of the genre - not hugely fond of it myself - but the "incels" crack? Sweeping generalisation that anyone who likes that sort of thing is a bigoted male (white) supermacist?

Bridge too far, man; that's not cool. Really not cool.

C'mon, GloatingSwine, you're better than that.

[GloatingSwine]

Dude, I get that you don't think much of the genre - not hugely fond of it myself - but the "incels" crack? Sweeping generalisation that anyone who likes that sort of thing is a bigoted male (white) supermacist?

Bridge too far, man; that's not cool. Really not cool.

C'mon, GloatingSwine, you're better than that.

The pathology is different in Japan. Japanese otaku incels are a very different breed to the angry ones on Reddit (they call it sekkusu shinai shokogun, celibacy syndrome, and it's societally endemic in the under 40s). You can see it happening in a lot of fiction that panders to them.

Ever notice how romantic and especially moe anime has leaned more and more heavily on imoutocon in recent years?

It's because there's a significant market of young Japanese men who are so bad at meeting and speaking to women that they literally cannot buy into a romantic scenario coming out of anything other than a pre-existing familial relationship, because those are the only women they ever get to know well enough.

Bear in mind we're talking about a nation where 61% of unmarried men 18-34 are not in a relationship (49% of unmarried women) and one third of under 30s have never dated at all.

[Aotrs Commander]

Ever notice how romantic and especially moe anime has leaned more and more heavily on imoutocon in recent years?

I think this thread has established that I have very absolutely no clue about trends in anime, recent or otherwise.

I don't even know what "imoutocon" is, and I only have the vagueness clue that "moe" is something to do with "cute," but beyond that?

(Hell, I had to go look up "isekai?" to even have a clue what you folk were talking about.)

It's because there's a significant market of young Japanese men who are so bad at meeting and speaking to women that they literally cannot buy into a romantic scenario coming out of anything other than a pre-existing familial relationship, because those are the only women they ever get to know well enough.

Bear in mind we're talking about a nation where 61% of unmarried men 18-34 are not in a relationship (49% of unmarried women) and one third of under 30s have never dated at all.

Those statistics would be more meaningful if I had any idea how they relate to anywhere else in the world, as I have no clue how much that deviates from "normal" (sic).

Or how that impinges on things like, say, teenage pregnancy. (Which is one that is more important, one feels to keep under control.)

If I'm brutally honest, I don't necessarily immediately see those numbers as a problem; no-one, anywhere, should feel that they HAVE to be in a relationship, after all, so without further statistics on how much of those numbers pertain to "desire but inability" verses "lack of desire," they don't mean much to me.

[GloatingSwine]

I don't even know what "imoutocon" is, and I only have the vagueness clue that "moe" is something to do with "cute," but beyond that?

"Imoutocon" is a romantic or sexual portrayal of a (frequently underage) little sister or someone who is socially presented as one.

There is a lot of anime that leans on it as a primary driver.

Those statistics would be more meaningful if I had any idea how they relate to anywhere else in the world, as I have no clue how much that deviates from "normal" (sic).

Put it like this.

Japan has the second lowest birth rate in the world. They are not at it at all.

There's a real social problem with the breakdown of relationships among young people in Japan. (Not least because they tend to persist quite strongly because in Japan it's very very difficult to form new relationships outside of those you form via your employment because social forums outside of work and post-work socialisation with colleagues barely exist. So it's very hard to find new friendships or relationships in adulthood in Japan). With an otherwise long-lived society, much of which is outside of the workforce due to age, a demographic collapse resulting in fewer new entrants is going to be a serious problem sooner rather than later.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah on this topic: TFS has a series called Yes Yes Love Adventure Go, its all about going into these harem visual novels and looking at how screwed up they are, particularly the new version with Takahata101 and Gaijingoomba, they talk all about how the harem genre and particularly the "games" (its being very loosely used with harem visual novels) played encourages very unrealistic expectations, manipulative relationships and just screwed up everyone and the protagonist within them really are. Gloating Swine go look up YYLAG, that you share the same opinion as those two in that series tells me you'll like it, warning though its hilarious but in a "flaming trainwreck that I can't look away from" way while the two players suffer through it just as much the viewers. its kind some of the most out there of TFS content though. I don't recommend it for the faint of heart and certainly not while anyone else is around to judge you or at work. but if you have a taste for it, oh boy your in for a ride.

[Silfir]

I'll let you have Ranma.

And that's only because it's functionally the original from which all harem comedies are derived, and because Ranma hirself is aggressively uninterested in basically all but Akane anyway, whom ze is merely tsundere for so it's not the later more degenerate forms of the genre.

Just as an aside - I don't remember any indication that Ranma ever identified as anything other than male. What's wrong with "he" or "himself"?

[GloatingSwine]

Just as an aside - I don't remember any indication that Ranma ever identified as anything other than male. What's wrong with "he" or "himself"?

Mostly a joke.

But there are a fair number of times where Ranma is far more accepting of his feminine form than his usual protests indicate (usually when someone insults it or him for it).

[LaZodiac]

Or Inuyasha.

For modern ones, I liked Problem Children Are Coming From Another World, Aren't They? Unfortunately, it is the quintessential example of "the anime just advertises for the manga/light novel", since it only lasts ten episode. But it's a fun ride.

Kagome can go home whenever she damn well pleases Inuyasha is NOT an Isekai.

...

...

****. You're right. It is.

[Cozzer]

But there are a fair number of times where Ranma is far more accepting of his feminine form than his usual protests indicate (usually when someone insults it or him for it).

Well, Ranma is a massive narcissist . As much as he hates turning into a woman, he's still compelled to prove how better he his at everything - including being a woman - than everyone - including actual women.

[Silfir]

Mostly a joke.

But there are a fair number of times where Ranma is far more accepting of his feminine form than his usual protests indicate (usually when someone insults it or him for it).

Sure, but at the same time he aggressively pursues any opportunities or leads that could lead to him getting rid of his curse. He's always thwarted by outside forces in some way - either he has to give up the cure for the curse because he has to do the heroic thing, or it's snatched away by the author for the same reason Charlie Brown never gets to kick the football.

Ranma can be accepting of his female form - and even use it to his advantage - without giving up his male identity. Disdain for the feminine is not an integral element of masculine identity, even if a lot of men have been raised or otherwise led to believe otherwise.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's not as if frequently-contemporary-person-transported-to-new-world is not also a really common trope though, even well outside anime/manga/light novels et al. Hell, isn't stuff like Harry Potter or Buck Rogars pretty much falling into an example of this (let alone stuff like Narnia or dozens of other fantasy novels - e.g. the Thomas Covenant stuff, for example)?

(Never been hugely keen on the concept, I prefer something not quite so outside-the-context (as opposed to, y'know, Outside Context Problems) that can still serve as the reader viewpoint, but it's still really prevalent, isn't it?)

[tyckspoon]

It's not as if frequently-contemporary-person-transported-to-new-world is not also a really common trope though, even well outside anime/manga/light novels et al. Hell, isn't stuff like Harry Potter or Buck Rogars pretty much falling into an example of this (let alone stuff like Narnia or dozens of other fantasy novels - e.g. the Thomas Covenant stuff, for example)?

All the way back to classic fiction like Connecticut Yankee and The Dragon and The George, yeah. The core premise isn't a new thing at all, and I think that's part of why I've seen arguments that 'isekai' should be restricted specifically to 'protagonist is transported into a game or game-like world' when trying to define it as a genre; otherwise the setting/plot premise of 'somebody has been taken to another reality' doesn't really tell you anything about the kind of story/world you're going to be dealing with. It starts being like trying to establish a 'genre' of 'death books' where the common thread is somebody at some point dies.

[GloatingSwine]

All the way back to classic fiction like Connecticut Yankee and The Dragon and The George, yeah. The core premise isn't a new thing at all, and I think that's part of why I've seen arguments that 'isekai' should be restricted specifically to 'protagonist is transported into a game or game-like world' when trying to define it as a genre; otherwise the setting/plot premise of 'somebody has been taken to another reality' doesn't really tell you anything about the kind of story/world you're going to be dealing with. It starts being like trying to establish a 'genre' of 'death books' where the common thread is somebody at some point dies.

"Isekai" usually refers more to the way contemporary light novel authors tend to present the concept. Most of them are game or gamelike worlds (for reasons expounded above, the authors are young and dumb and don't know any better, and because SAO was popular so everyone wrote fanfiction of it).

Portal fantasy concepts are old as dirt, but there's a very particular modern Japanese presentation that earned the genre name there (and is very very very often bad).

[Lethologica]

While browsing around for genre definitions of isekai, I came across the following line on Wikipedia...

Spirited Away was the first world-wide known isekai anime film, although the term "isekai" was not commonly used at the time.

...and now I have a vested interest in any genre definition that makes this line false, because come on.

[Rynjin]

All the way back to classic fiction like Connecticut Yankee and The Dragon and The George, yeah. The core premise isn't a new thing at all, and I think that's part of why I've seen arguments that 'isekai' should be restricted specifically to 'protagonist is transported into a game or game-like world' when trying to define it as a genre; otherwise the setting/plot premise of 'somebody has been taken to another reality' doesn't really tell you anything about the kind of story/world you're going to be dealing with. It starts being like trying to establish a 'genre' of 'death books' where the common thread is somebody at some point dies.

Technically speaking "transported to a game or game like world" is an established sub-genre of Isekai (litrpg fiction) so the thinking that that's all Isekai is is especially wrongheaded.

[Kato]

I often feel like isekai requires being trapped, though I know it doesn't.
Also, on the issue of Inuyasha, does time travel really count? So is any long term time travel isekai? Is getting abducted by aliens to another planet isekai? Is discovering your world is actually very different from what you thought isekai?
What qualifies as another world, except the literal interpretation?

[Lethologica]

Technically speaking "transported to a game or game like world" is an established sub-genre of Isekai (litrpg fiction) so the thinking that that's all Isekai is is especially wrongheaded.

The term 'litrpg fiction' predates the term isekai by a fair ways. It's not that litrpg is an established sub-genre, rather, isekai came along recently and decided to lay claim to litrpg even though the typical stories in that genre may not feel at all like the stories that gave rise to the isekai designation.

[Rynjin]

The term 'litrpg fiction' predates the term isekai by a fair ways. It's not that litrpg is an established sub-genre, rather, isekai came along recently and decided to lay claim to litrpg even though the typical stories in that genre may not feel at all like the stories that gave rise to the isekai designation.

That's kind of complicated. Portal Fantasy BY FAR predates litrpg (and RPGs in general). Isekai is a "newer term" only for the reason that the Japanese language and media are relatively new to the world stage, since isekai is just the Japanese term for portal fantasy.

[Lethologica]

That's kind of complicated. Portal Fantasy BY FAR predates litrpg (and RPGs in general). Isekai is a "newer term" only for the reason that the Japanese language and media are relatively new to the world stage, since isekai is just the Japanese term for portal fantasy.

That's the dictionary meaning, sure - 'another world'. And a vast number of stories are romance in the sense of having romance in them. Most of them don't live in the romance genre, though.

The use of the word 'isekai' to describe a genre comes from the proliferation of light novels (and subsequent adaptations) with that word in the title. That is the root of the genre and the forms observed by works in the genre. Just because some of the most basic forms are shared with older work, or work in other literary traditions, doesn't mean that the other works belong to the genre.

[theMycon]

The only good Isekais are .Hack Sign and Log Horizon.

At least with regards to anime.

You just implied Log Horizon was a good anime*. As penance, you now have to provide a definition of Isekai that does not include The Devil is a Part-Timer.

Neither of those are harem comedies at all.

Harem series aren't just "there are multiple female characters", but "there are multiple female characters with a shared, possibly unresolved, romantic interest in protagonist-kun".

I'll give you MI, since I've watched like 2 episodes & read nothing, so it's prolly changed. I'm not agreeing "barely tolerated one way interest from a series of second women to the leading man" is more harem-esque than "barely tolerated one way interest from the leading man to a series of women", but doubt either of us are likely to budge on that, so I'll play devil's advocate.

There's no possible way you can claim Ranma fits your definition better than UY with a straight face- Ranma's mostly about the punching. There are 2 or 3 guys into girl-Ranma the way Moroboshi & Happosai are into every woman, but no-one else in the series has that deal of attraction to anyone.

Ranma has a lot of female characters, and one of them has a genuine relationship with the protagonist. Two or three women pop in occasionally to remind him they're technically engaged, but really just want to fight. Every woman in the main cast except Akane is rooting for Ranma & Akane as soon as they've got a set personality.
There's never any doubt in the viewer's mind that those two are The Power Couple. I didn't see Ranma as particularly sexually interested in any girl, though he got along alright with Akane, in a highschool romance kind of way. He just wanted to fight more & better.

There was at least a little lingering attraction between Moroboshi & Shinobu, and the Monster Woman Of The Week wanted his pants as often as they wanted his throat.


*They clearly put more though into world-building than any other series in the genre. There's also a clear love for & understanding of MMOs that's unfortunately rare. I stumbled through the first season on these strengths; but the writing is bad, the solutions to major problems are stupid, and Cat-husbandu is the only character I liked.

[Pendulous]

Devil's a Part-Timer is technically a reverse isekai. But I like the genre. That, Dragon Maid, even Gabriel Dropout in a way. The fish out of water type stuff. Fantasy characters in the real world provides good fun times. Looks like Anilist calls it "urban fantasy".

[Zalabim]

The term 'litrpg fiction' predates the term isekai by a fair ways. It's not that litrpg is an established sub-genre, rather, isekai came along recently and decided to lay claim to litrpg even though the typical stories in that genre may not feel at all like the stories that gave rise to the isekai designation.

Since from my perspective, the term 'litrpg fiction' was just invented today, I went and looked it up. The earliest examples of the genre are books like Tad Williams' Otherland (which I have read and did not present itself as anything outside of science fiction) and the term itself was made up by a Russion publisher in 2013-2014. Isekai as a term, and the stories it refers to, is definitely the elder. The two concepts are distinct, even if many stories include both. They can be separate as well.

I'd rather use more words to describe the concept than add in extra baggage to an already full definition. Just take the reaction to 'incel' earlier, which now apparently means "bigoted male (white) supermacist" on top of 'person no one wants to have sex with.'

[Lethologica]

Since from my perspective, the term 'litrpg fiction' was just invented today, I went and looked it up. The earliest examples of the genre are books like Tad Williams' Otherland (which I have read and did not present itself as anything outside of science fiction) and the term itself was made up by a Russion publisher in 2013-2014. Isekai as a term, and the stories it refers to, is definitely the elder. The two concepts are distinct, even if many stories include both. They can be separate as well.

I'd rather use more words to describe the concept than add in extra baggage to an already full definition. Just take the reaction to 'incel' earlier, which now apparently means "bigoted male (white) supermacist" on top of 'person no one wants to have sex with.'

Whoops, egg on my face there. I think we broadly agree, though.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'd rather use more words to describe the concept than add in extra baggage to an already full definition. Just take the reaction to 'incel' earlier, which now apparently means "bigoted male (white) supermacist" on top of 'person no one wants to have sex with.'

In fairness, that is exactly what the wikipedia entry says it is (first result in google), because I absolutely did even check before I responded to GloatingSwine, as the only time I have heard that term was in that context.

[Drascin]

Since from my perspective, the term 'litrpg fiction' was just invented today, I went and looked it up. The earliest examples of the genre are books like Tad Williams' Otherland (which I have read and did not present itself as anything outside of science fiction) and the term itself was made up by a Russion publisher in 2013-2014. Isekai as a term, and the stories it refers to, is definitely the elder. The two concepts are distinct, even if many stories include both. They can be separate as well.

I'd rather use more words to describe the concept than add in extra baggage to an already full definition. Just take the reaction to 'incel' earlier, which now apparently means "bigoted male (white) supermacist" on top of 'person no one wants to have sex with.'

Yeah, there is a difference in context between "dude who is a virgin because he doesn't really know how to land a date" and "dude who is in incel culture". Because yes, the whole incel thing is basically a subculture, mostly based around misogyny and male supremacism and born from entitled bitterness and a really weird of looking at the universe as a zero-sum game. It's a really toxic piece of internet culture.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah, there is a difference in context between "dude who is a virgin because he doesn't really know how to land a date" and "dude who is in incel culture". Because yes, the whole incel thing is basically a subculture, mostly based around misogyny and male supremacism and born from entitled bitterness and a really weird of looking at the universe as a zero-sum game. It's a really toxic piece of internet culture.

Hence why I took umbrage at GS' percieved usage. I have zero-tolerance for intolerance.

[gomipile]

Hence why I took umbrage at GS' percieved usage. I have zero-tolerance for intolerance.

Unless it's intolerance of intolerance. Or maybe you're completely fair and have zero tolerance for yourself as well.

...

I'll be over here in the corner for a while.

[Aotrs Commander]

Unless it's intolerance of intolerance. Or maybe you're completely fair and have zero tolerance for yourself as well.

...

I'll be over here in the corner for a while.

If people want to treat other sentient/sapients with intolerance, I'll happily return the favour, because treat others how they themselves treat others, right? Unfair's unfair, yes? I'm Evil; fair is for wargames, competative events (when the outcome is no actual cosmic importance) and MAYBE DMing sometimes. If the universe wants me to be fair outsdie those specific instances, when it is, I might consider it. Until then, I have a hoist and if people want to give me their petards, I'll gladly combine the two without hesitation. Before shanking them in the soul's organs with a blunt, rusty knife with excessive force. (Literally or metaphorically or both, I'm easy.) Human factionalism annoys the unliving FRACK out of me.



(Prob'ly shouldn't dwell on this much more, though; while I am quite happy to talk about me all day, everyday (my favourite subject apart from starships), but this isn't the shocking non-present "The Everything Appreciates How Bleakbane Is Clearly The Best Thing In Existance" thread.

We should really have one of those, y'know. Just sayin'.)