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Thread: Avengers: Infinity War
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2018-06-20, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Just a reminder that the lost page of the spellbook was in a sanctum and thus may have different rules of reality than other places on Earth. This may be the case or this may not be the case, it depends entirely on the writers.
What I am saying rules with rewinding time either in how far you go back, or the fact will rewinding time have effects on the rest of reality may be different when the place you are rewinding is a self contained marble that is an anchor in protecting earth from external threats from other dimensions / other planets.Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2018-06-21, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War
That channeling MULTIPLE INFINITIES - the exact purpose it was designed for by the awesome space dwarves - only makes it a bit worn off.
1. So Groot is basically super powerful because he didn't die from touching the awesome space dwarves' super hot weapon? What are you getting at here??
2. War axe doesn't break when used as an war axe. Big news. I used to cut wood for my grandma with her old axe. Didn't break either. Sometimes I even swung it down to the ground, just for the kicks. Sadly, no lightning powers emitted, because unfortunately axe not produced by space dwarves, or maybe I'm no god of thunder. Either way, axe not break from hitting earth.
At which point in the movie should we have expected the axe to break, if it had been of lesser quality??
When Thor hit the ground?
When Thor threw the axe, and the TOP part of it - i.e. NOT the handle made of wood - hit Thanos in the chest?
3. Axe is magic. I get it. It is super powerful because super awesome space dwarves are super awesome at making super awesome magic weapons for thunder gods.
But I certainly miss the logical jump where this automatically implies that the handle - made of living wood - is automatically immune to being aged or turned back by time MAGIC. Time magic which comes from an INFINITY STONE, which the movie tells us are the most awesome stuff in the universe.
Why should Thanos, with all SIX Infinity stones, which put a dent into the gauntlet which was designed to hold them and channel their power, not be able to age or de-age a wooden handle into dust? Even if it's magical, so what? Vision with the Infinity Stone was magical as well, and Thanos turned them back as well.
The gauntlet with the time stone dusted half the universe but couldn't handle a wooden handle, because it was designed by space dwarves, and we have seen a thunder god hitting the ground and one enemy with it?
I would have no problem if IW2 would TELL us that, but at this point in time, I just don't see any of that as a given.
When Strange first plays with the time stone, he plays with the apple. And he dials it back and forth at least many hours, possibly even days.
A small object - many hours. With the very first try he ever got his hands on the stone.
So, naturally, we expect he learns to harness this power more, because this is how stories go, right?
And, sure enough, later, when he needs to, he handles a muuuuuuuuch bigger "object", an entire city block with houses and people and stuff, and dials those back a couple minutes.
Even later, in infinity war, he looks at a bazillion different outcomes for the story. How long do you think that takesß
I'd argue this is more advanced than the play with the apple.
So when the next movie picks up with Thanos fighting Thor, it might have been hours, or maybe days, after the wooden handle has been merged with the axe's head, and you would cry FOUL if Thanos dialed that thing back in time?
Sorry, I really don't see it.
And, luckily enough, someone else even remembered the Strange movie better than I did, and even found an in-story example - the spellbook - where Strange dialed something back much longer than either the apple, or Thor's axe would need to be.
Or is it that the spellbook can be turned back because it was not written by space dwarves?
The source material is very much similar to the source material of the axe's handle - made out of plant fibers.
Turns out, you can create portals under someone, making them fall down, as other people nicely pointed out.
Thanks for the help.
And thanks for giving, finally, a good reason why Strange couldn't do it - I did have the feeling that I was missing something. Strange being elsewhere or unconscious is at least reasonable.
Re: time stone
I'd think that if you actually had the TIME to watch 14 million different timelines, you'd at some point consider a tactic that you did earlier in the movie (or was it his friend?), especially if your character stick is "genius with magical powers".
That said, I find this a real clever trick the authors did there. By having Strange looking at all possible futures, we are being told that whatever we come with as possible solutions, it would not have worked, for some reason, in the long run.
It is a cheat, but is a good one.
Still, even if you use this technique as a writer, you have to make sure that basic bases are covered. If there are very basic, logical opportunities for the characters, you still need to explain why those exactly would not have worked. That way the story becomes much more believable.
I think they overall did a reasonable job with that, with only a couple minor nitpicks.
Yeah, sure, monk magic ain't no Tesserakt. STILL, even planet-wide portal magic would have sufficed for cutting the gauntlet off, which was the basis for our discussion.
Turns out, once you throw Magic into your story, you can do everything you want.
Like, turning axes of lightning gods back in time so they crumble.
Or, making axes of thunder gods invincible to time magic.
Your choice, basically.
It should be noted, though, that better stories usually come out when the writer focusses more on the limits of the magic, than on the possibilities it offers. Clear and consistent restrictions make for more plausible and more tense stories, at least in my opinion.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-06-21 at 03:11 AM.
Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2018-06-21, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Avengers: Infinity War
2. War axe doesn't break when used as an war axe. Big news. I used to cut wood for my grandma with her old axe. Didn't break either. Sometimes I even swung it down to the ground, just for the kicks. Sadly, no lightning powers emitted, because unfortunately axe not produced by space dwarves, or maybe I'm no god of thunder. Either way, axe not break from hitting earth.
At which point in the movie should we have expected the axe to break, if it had been of lesser quality??
When Thor hit the ground?
When Thor threw the axe, and the TOP part of it - i.e. NOT the handle made of wood - hit Thanos in the chest?
3. Axe is magic. I get it. It is super powerful because super awesome space dwarves are super awesome at making super awesome magic weapons for thunder gods.
But I certainly miss the logical jump where this automatically implies that the handle - made of living wood - is automatically immune to being aged or turned back by time MAGIC. Time magic which comes from an INFINITY STONE, which the movie tells us are the most awesome stuff in the universe.
The argument is that its immune to age. Not to being aged. At least get that right instead of swinging at strawmen.
Why should Thanos, with all SIX Infinity stones, which put a dent into the gauntlet which was designed to hold them and channel their power, not be able to age or de-age a wooden handle into dust? Even if it's magical, so what? Vision with the Infinity Stone was magical as well, and Thanos turned them back as well.
The gauntlet with the time stone dusted half the universe but couldn't handle a wooden handle, because it was designed by space dwarves, and we have seen a thunder god hitting the ground and one enemy with it?
I would have no problem if IW2 would TELL us that, but at this point in time, I just don't see any of that as a given.
You have also been given the answer to this a few times already.
Because using the time stone to rewind an object very clearly takes concentration.
Its to start with only you who insist that its possible to do so in combat.
But we have never the stone used there. IW2 cant be expected to come up with answers to super powers you invent on your own.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-06-21, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War
1. I'm not moving any goal. I said that Thanos might try to age or de-age Thor's axe in the next movie.
This probably means he has access to all six stones, no?
Because that's how Infinity War ended, no?
2. Also, are you saying that anything Thor touches should break?
Why should the handle break when the head of the axe crashes into Thanos?
3. It doesn't break because MAGIC. And it could AGE because MAGIC. Or NOT AGE because MAGIC.
There is nothing in the movies declaring that Thor's axe is immune to aging by an INFINITY STONE, so why should we assume it is immune?
4. And nothing about strawmen, whatever that means.
5. There is no indication that the wooden handle is immune to regular aging. Nothing at all unless you tell me a scene where potential aging of the axe is shown or told, and I forgot that scene - it might have been, I didn't remember all details of the fight on Titan either.
Even if I buy your argument that the axe is exceptionally robust when wielded as a war axe - which makes sense as a weapon for a thunder god - there is no indication that it is immune to aging. Because we don't see it being exposed to age.
5. It could even be a huge plot point in later movies that Thor's new axe is unfortunately NOT immune to regular aging, and now Thor has to repair it or get yet another one.
How could that possibly be?
Because originally, the awesome space dwarf weaponsmiths HAD NOT PLANNED TO USE GROOT'S BRANCH. They had planned to use a handle made of molten Neutronium or what have you. But the awesome space dwarf weapon smiths couldn't get their stuff together and misplaced the damn handle, so Groot IMPROVISED.
So, while the head of the axe will stand the test of time and survive the heat death of the universe, unfortunately the handle will not, because it was made of a mortal part of a mortal being, with the magic of the awesome space dwarves enabling it to work for at least long enough for the next movie(s).
6. You can explain EVERYTHING you want with MAGIC.
So either you don't discuss anything it all, because it is not leading anywhere anyway, or you use what is established in the movie, and don't make up additional stuff to justify why stuff involving MAGIC can't possibly happen.
Unless I'm missing something, the axe was not shown to be immune to aging, so it can either be immune or not be immune, as long as a future movie decides on that.
7. And all of that discussion doesn't even explain why de-aging wouldn't have worked.
8.Time Stone in combat: Strange in the end of his movie.
Also, even if it requires concentration, in the Titan battle there were a couple people who could distract Thanis long enough for Strange to concentrate.
In my hypothetical Thanos vs Thor's axe scenario, we have Thanos, who killed half the universe with a snap of his gauntlet fingers. I find it incredibly easy to believe that a snap of his fingers is enough to de-age Thor's axe.
Wasn't shown to need much concentration for wiping half the universe, was he?
9. Done. This has wasted enough of my time, and it doesn't even count as guilty time wasting pleasure anymore, since it doesn't lead anywhere. You want to believe what you want to believe, fine. I see no reason at all why my idea CAN'T HAVE WORKED, but I see no use trying to convince you. Next movie, Thanos will likely NOT use my idea, and you might consider it proof that it wouldn't have worked. Don't care. This discussion doesn't bring up interesting points, and it isn't funny, so I will stop arguing about Thor's axe and space dwarves.
10. So, back to other stuff about infinity war, if people want.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-06-21 at 04:26 AM.
Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2018-06-21, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Avengers: Infinity War
And what would cutting Thanos's hand have bought them? That was probably a whole branch of possible futures that all ended in eventual failure. (probably some variant of Ironman flies off with the gauntlet, thanos activates his homeworld's planetary defenses, ironman dies, game over)
The ONE successful path was keep thanos talking, stall, put thanos to sleep long enough to stall more but not long enough piss him off by making him get the gauntlet back, fight defensively to stall the fight more, until the last possible instant before Ironman is killed, then offer thanos what he wants (in a way that stalls the confrontation more). This not only keeps Ironman alive, it also stalls for Thor to get his ax and bifrost to earth, to keep thanos from killing Steve Rodgers before activating the gauntlet.
The REST of the one successful path, we get to see next movie. But it's going to require the all the heros who didnt get ashed, which means Thanos cannot be allowed to kill anyone important BEFORE the Snap.Last edited by Rakaydos; 2018-06-21 at 10:26 AM.
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2018-06-21, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Thor exerts a rather ridiculous amount of force, and he's capable of breaking rather a lot. Anything he can't break is pretty tough. Imagine being in the position the axe is in, being used by a ridiculously powerful god to smash opponents of a similar caliber. The forces exerted would be immense.
3. It doesn't break because MAGIC. And it could AGE because MAGIC. Or NOT AGE because MAGIC.
There is nothing in the movies declaring that Thor's axe is immune to aging by an INFINITY STONE, so why should we assume it is immune?
Note that none of their weapons appear visibly marred by age. It appears that, so far as we can see, despite extreme age, the dwarves make stuff that just lasts. Because something metal, forged in the heart of a dying star(just as his hammer was).
5. There is no indication that the wooden handle is immune to regular aging. Nothing at all unless you tell me a scene where potential aging of the axe is shown or told, and I forgot that scene - it might have been, I didn't remember all details of the fight on Titan either.
Even if I buy your argument that the axe is exceptionally robust when wielded as a war axe - which makes sense as a weapon for a thunder god - there is no indication that it is immune to aging. Because we don't see it being exposed to age.
5. It could even be a huge plot point in later movies that Thor's new axe is unfortunately NOT immune to regular aging, and now Thor has to repair it or get yet another one.
Additionally, it is heavily foreshadowed that this particular axe is a necessary part of Strange's single successful path.
6. You can explain EVERYTHING you want with MAGIC.
So either you don't discuss anything it all, because it is not leading anywhere anyway, or you use what is established in the movie, and don't make up additional stuff to justify why stuff involving MAGIC can't possibly happen.
Judging by the results of what Strange actually fought for, he was not aiming to maim Thanos. He doesn't seriously try to do that by any means. He aims to stall Thanos. Turning back time would be counter-productive in this, so he doesn't use the time stone, instead hiding it to bargain and further stall. Look at how he fights. Mirrors thrown that Thanos has to shatter, cool. That's not a lethal threat, that's a stalling tactic. A bunch of mirrors preventing the gauntlet from closing? Again, stalling tactic.
He's keeping the necessary people alive, and buying time. The former is obvious. Stark is somehow important to Thanos's defeat, and they are set up as having a connection. So, he needs to live. Nebula also needs to live, because otherwise Tony is stuck on Titan with no way home. Neither of those things explain why he's stalling, however, and stalling Thanos a few seconds more or less would make pretty much no difference to the earth fight otherwise. That's already in motion without Thanos's arrival(since he portals there directly from Titan). So, it's also not that.
The big arrival mid-fight, shortly before Thanos, that matters to the outcome is...Thor with the axe. Thus, it absolutely has to be important. Cutting off a hand, win or lose, would likely not have accomplished the above objectives. Thanos, down a hand, might not be willing to spare Stark, for instance.Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2018-06-21 at 12:38 PM.