OOTS #1116 - The Discussion Thread

[h0m3st4r]

Fun little attention to detail here... Hylgia has to explain herself to Minrah, not Roy. Apparently the guy's seen it all at this point.

Given all that's happened in OOTS so far, it makes sense.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agreed, but to nitpick here, I wouldn't say 'polar opposite'. I mean, we've seen the comic comment about the idea of evil opposites as being a bit arbitrary anyway, but it seems more like vampires are supposed to be the embodiment of their vessel's darkest urges and resentments. Durkon* isn't Durkon's polar opposite, but the (un)living embodiment of the part of Durkon that always chafed as Suffering For Duty and Being The Side Character In His Own Life. That seems polar opposite in some ways, particularly because Durkon is so staunchly about duty and law and is generally solidly good, but I feel like 'polar opposite' implies that he's going to be the opposite in all ways. Heck, Durkon* is even still Lawful - aside from having summoned the devil, indicating a LE alignment, he's still going about things in a Lawful Evil way - organizing and leading a team, going through complex machinations, rules lawyering and enjoying it, etc., etc.

I'm not trying to be overly finicky here, honest, and I know you don't mean to imply that Durkon* is opposite in every way, but I feel like I see a lot of commenters who think that vampires are Helm of Opposite Alignment spirits, despite the comic being fairly clear that it's more complicated than that, and I'm using this as a blatant excuse for this spiel.

That aside, however, you're right that arrogance definitely seems to be one of Durkon*'s biggest potential downfalls, and that he has it precisely because Durkon himself is so passive and he's the embodied resentment that Durkon's held about it.

You're right, and in my defence, I wrote the post quite late and rushing before going off to bed. I could nitpick that I don't feel that polar opposite means opposite in all ways (after all, the two actual poles have a lot in common: freezing temperatures, 6 months of day followed by 6 months of dark [although altering between each other], etc), but I suspect that is not what is meant by the phrase in English, so I'm happy to chalk it to "I was tired, should've done my research, but instead I picked the wrong word".

So what I did mean is that I'd expect Greg to be very different in some ways (one of which I described), but much more similar to Durkon than he'd be happy admitting in others, and with relatively few characteristics in the "middle distance" (although I'd also expect that Durkon will see how some of those extremes are negative and he will change to become more moderate). If that doesn't fit into "polar opposite", then by all means mentally replace with whatever the appropriate English concept does.

In any case, sorry 'bout that - I should know better than posting while tired.

Grey Wolf

[Reboot]

Check my logic guys - is it possible those small rodents are not actually from Roy's Bag of Tricks at all?

When I noticed that rat saying "wooooo" my first thought is that it's obviously Elan in disguise. He has the Ride skill, he loves animal rides, he would think this is the best thing ever, he has Disguise Self... Of course you can't use Disguise Self to look like something as small as a rat.

Then I thought that the other two could be Haley (sitting close to Elan), and Belkar, the other character that we've shown has the Ride skill and is good with animals.

Roy could have his bag out to clue in Durkula to think that's where they came from so as not to notice them. Can small rodents even ride other animals anyway? Surely normally they would just be charging on the ground, the fact that they're riding seems like more of a PC thing than a small animal thing.

It's definitely a stretch but there's just a number of things that seem off. Especially the rat screaming out "woooooo", I think at the very least that one is Elan. I don't know my 3.5e spells well enough to know what spells could be responsible for this though.

If those were Polymorphed (or even illusion'd) V & E, they would be at serious risk of being killed by the Symbol(s) of Death, since they're up there with the HP soaks, and closer than some.

[danielxcutter]

If those were Polymorphed (or even illusion'd) V & E, they would be at serious risk of being killed by the Symbol(s) of Death, since they're up there with the HP soaks, and closer than some.

Death Ward might help against the Symbol of Death, but it looks like there are other symbols too, which aren't blocked by Death Ward.

[Ruck]

If those were Polymorphed (or even illusion'd) V & E, they would be at serious risk of being killed by the Symbol(s) of Death, since they're up there with the HP soaks, and closer than some.

Yeah, I don't see the riders being polymorphed party members. What would the benefit be? It would waste spell slots and they'd be weaker in this form too. (I also think if Rich drew the bag of tricks there, it wouldn't be for Roy to fool Durkon; it would be for Rich to fool us.)

[Shining Wrath]

Or some if not all could have whatever reason to go with the intial plan if not told otherwise. (General personality types, focusing on their current target, possibly misguided sense of self preservation with the high level cleric) I think it would also depend on what Hilgya is doing.

As for the sword what do you mean by wot not? Is it about Durkon* assuming the sword has no tricks left or him thinking his situation is secure enough to handle any expected additional tricks?
But yeah I think the arrogance fatal flaw is pretty darn likely, though I'd say there could be a bit more to the cause(s) on Durkon's end.

This sword has the demonstrated ability to heal a high-level fighter of dozens of HP and restore several lost levels in a moment. Durkula ought to know that it's Roy's ancestral sword, and that he's been learning how to use it better. I would at least wonder, were I he, "is that total-heal effect the best it can do? Or is there more?"

Yeah, I don't see the riders being polymorphed party members. What would the benefit be? It would waste spell slots and they'd be weaker in this form too. (I also think if Rich drew the bag of tricks there, it wouldn't be for Roy to fool Durkon; it would be for Rich to fool us.)

It would only help if getting close to the vampires was somehow advantageous. That's not true for the 3 not-shown characters - V, Elan, and Haley all want to keep their distance.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This sword has the demonstrated ability to heal a high-level fighter of dozens of HP and restore several lost levels in a moment. Durkula ought to know that it's Roy's ancestral sword, and that he's been learning how to use it better. I would at least wonder, were I he, "is that total-heal effect the best it can do? Or is there more?"

Or maybe he does not know that ancestral weapons are a thing that can keep granting new powers to its wielder with help of a book that he doesn't know Roy has. In general, magic objects in D&D only have one or two effects, which Greg has already seen, so unless he is aware of the ancestral weapon class/ability/whatever it is, he has no reason to assume the sword will keep developing new powers.

GW

[DaggerPen]

You're right, and in my defence, I wrote the post quite late and rushing before going off to bed. I could nitpick that I don't feel that polar opposite means opposite in all ways (after all, the two actual poles have a lot in common: freezing temperatures, 6 months of day followed by 6 months of dark [although altering between each other], etc), but I suspect that is not what is meant by the phrase in English, so I'm happy to chalk it to "I was tired, should've done my research, but instead I picked the wrong word".

So what I did mean is that I'd expect Greg to be very different in some ways (one of which I described), but much more similar to Durkon than he'd be happy admitting in others, and with relatively few characteristics in the "middle distance" (although I'd also expect that Durkon will see how some of those extremes are negative and he will change to become more moderate). If that doesn't fit into "polar opposite", then by all means mentally replace with whatever the appropriate English concept does.

In any case, sorry 'bout that - I should know better than posting while tired.

Grey Wolf

No worries - like I said, it was mostly just nitpicking. "Polar opposite" tends to mean "reverse alignment along both the morality and ethical axes" in D&D contexts, or at least that's how I've always seen it used.

Or maybe he does not know that ancestral weapons are a thing that can keep granting new powers to its wielder with help of a book that he doesn't know Roy has. In general, magic objects in D&D only have one or two effects, which Greg has already seen, so unless he is aware of the ancestral weapon class/ability/whatever it is, he has no reason to assume the sword will keep developing new powers.

GW

Agreed. Even Roy seemed surprised that his sword could do that before Wrecan explained what was going on to him and gave him that book. It probably would have been smart for Durkon* to try to research it, but I get the impression it's pretty obscure knowledge. You could argue that Durkon* probably could extrapolate that if the sword has manifested one weird power, it might do so for another, but extrapolation doesn't seem to be Durkon*'s strong suit, and he seems generally pretty arrogant to boot.

[8BitNinja]

I'm going to be honest, I would have never thought of making that protection from law joke before reading this.

[DaggerPen]

I'm going to be honest, I would have never thought of making that protection from law joke before reading this.

Well, that's because you're a paladin! You're obviously a perpetuator of the oppressive pants ideology.

[Goblin_Priest]

Extra fodder summons can be useful against any effect that is single-targeted, affects a set number of targets, or targets low-HD creatures first.

I'm not sure what all the traps are, though. This has limited potential against Symbol of Death, but I guess wasting a bit of the HP total on these useless summons might be able to save a giraffe? After that, distractions?

[Ironsmith]

Extra fodder summons can be useful against any effect that is single-targeted, affects a set number of targets, or targets low-HD creatures first.

I'm not sure what all the traps are, though. This has limited potential against Symbol of Death, but I guess wasting a bit of the HP total on these useless summons might be able to save a giraffe? After that, distractions?

With as many vampires as there are in that room, I'd say distractions are a pretty viable combat technique. Durkon* has the numbers advantage; if the Order can deprive him of the chief benefits of that by denying them tactical cohesion (at least long enough to even the playing field), it's worth a shot, right?

[Devils_Advocate]

False positives would seem to be an excellent example of bad evidence, or false evidence. Not exactly the kind you want to hang your hat on.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bad", "false", or even "evidence" at this point. (Perhaps you consider "evidence" synonymous with "proof". The problem with that is that then we have two words for proof and no word for evidence, if you see what I mean.) But, that said, it sounds like you've got the basic idea: You don't want to hang your hat on false positives, and thus it's important to refrain from premature hat-hanging, because false positives exist.

I could nitpick that I don't feel that polar opposite means opposite in all ways (after all, the two actual poles have a lot in common: freezing temperatures, 6 months of day followed by 6 months of dark [although altering between each other], etc), but I suspect that is not what is meant by the phrase in English, so I'm happy to chalk it to "I was tired, should've done my research, but instead I picked the wrong word".

But the whole concept of "as different as possible in all ways" doesn't even make sense. E.g. the in-all-ways-opposite of a very hot object would be very cold, but also wouldn't be made out of physical matter at all (because the hot object is made out of physical matter), and thus not subject to the concept of temperature -- a contradiction. Similarly, two characters couldn't be "complete opposites" because one of them would have to be the opposite of a character to be the complete opposite of the other.

Opposites in the general sense aren't actually maximally different from each other, just the absence of each other, even when they're both relative: e.g. something is small to the same degree which it is not big and vice versa. Small equals not big and big equals not small. Two ______s being "opposites" is just shorthand for their relevant non-______ qualities being opposites, so it's entirely relative not only to what qualifies as "relevant" but also to what that blank is filled in with: e.g Durkon and Hilgya are both dwarven clerics and probably have a lot of other things in common too. All of which basically means that any two different things are "opposites" depending on how they're examined.

But DaggerPen did have a point in that vampires don't seem to be the opposites of their hosts in a formulaic way. It's just that in Durkon's case Durkon was and is strongly opposed to pretty much all of the Durkon-specific stuff that serves as a basis for his vampire. So you also have a point that the two of them are pretty much polar opposites in practice. Basically it's a matter of whether he's "supposed to be the polar opposite of Durkon" because he's a vampire or because he's an obvious foil. His role as the latter isn't inherently a function of the former, as revealed by his discussion with an underling.

Yeah, I don't see the riders being polymorphed party members. What would the benefit be? It would waste spell slots and they'd be weaker in this form too.

It would make more sense for it to be an illusion than an actual transformation, if that's what's going on.

(I also think if Rich drew the bag of tricks there, it wouldn't be for Roy to fool Durkon; it would be for Rich to fool us.)

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Obviously such trickery relies on the enemy not being aware of it, but in order to succeed, it must also surprise the audience, as Elan is well aware.

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't really expect it to be anything more than the bag of tricks. We've seen him use it before. And we've not seen the party ever use any illusions to make themselves pass as something else. Silent Image (I think?) is all I remember seeing.

[Snails]

Ancestral weapons are very far from a standard thing in D&D. As a D&D player I have imagined such things could exist and I have heard of some rules existing somewhere once. Never seen it at the gaming table. Never even read about a player whose PC saw one at the gaming table.

So there is no reason to be believe that Greg would have a clue about the Greenhilt sword. With time to research and time to cast divinations he could possibly guess a lot. But I think he has had more important things to do since the reveal with his time and spell slots, like build an undead army that could overwhelm the council of kings.

He expects that Roy will have trouble dealing with him solo, if only Roy can be denied the help of his allies. So building a vampire squad that can take out the rest of the Order is a pretty straightforward thing to (try to) accomplish.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure what you mean by "bad", "false", or even "evidence" at this point. (Perhaps you consider "evidence" synonymous with "proof". The problem with that is that then we have two words for proof and no word for evidence, if you see what I mean.)

Oh, I understand now. My bad. Sorry!

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't really expect it to be anything more than the bag of tricks. We've seen him use it before. And we've not seen the party ever use any illusions to make themselves pass as something else. Silent Image (I think?) is all I remember seeing.

Elan's also used Disguise Self during the fight with the ogres.

[Ruck]

It would make more sense for it to be an illusion than an actual transformation, if that's what's going on.

Agreed, though I think neither makes as much sense as them actually being animals from the Bag of Tricks, especially given that the Order wants to set off all those Symbols before they charge in.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Obviously such trickery relies on the enemy not being aware of it, but in order to succeed, it must also surprise the audience, as Elan is well aware.

See, there's a difference between surprising the audience by not revealing something, and revealing something solely to make the audience believe something that isn't true is. I find the latter to be bad writing and Rich hasn't engaged in it. (The closest I think he's come is by not making Malack's speech bubbles white on black initially, and there was a sufficient explanation for that.)

Again, though, I just don't see the point of fooling anyone into thinking the riders are critters from the Bag of Tricks when they're not.

[Fincher]

See, there's a difference between surprising the audience by not revealing something, and revealing something solely to make the audience believe something that isn't true is. I find the latter to be bad writing and Rich hasn't engaged in it. (The closest I think he's come is by not making Malack's speech bubbles white on black initially, and there was a sufficient explanation for that.)

I think not making the corpses outside of Thor's temple vampire-colored until partway through constituted that sort of narrative cheating.

[Keltest]

I think not making the corpses outside of Thor's temple vampire-colored until partway through constituted that sort of narrative cheating.

Actually, looking back, they do appear to be vampire colored, or at least corpse colored. The X eyes are the only thing I think could really be called cheating, since we've seen characters comment on how they can tell the difference between X eyes and closed eyes before, and even that's a stretch since the vampires are technically dead.

[Devils_Advocate]

"Vampire colored"? You mean significantly less red than normal? As one would expect a body drained of blood to look, whether or not it has risen as a vampire?

See, there's a difference between surprising the audience by not revealing something, and revealing something solely to make the audience believe something that isn't true is. I find the latter to be bad writing and Rich hasn't engaged in it. (The closest I think he's come is by not making Malack's speech bubbles white on black initially, and there was a sufficient explanation for that.)

Showing Malack unharmed in the sunlight seems to qualify. Sure, there was an explanation for that, but there's an explanation here, too: Roy and company want to fool Durkon*. So it seems pretty analogous; neither really qualifies as revealing something solely to make the audience believe something that isn't true is, but they both seem to me to kinda qualify to roughly the same extent.

[Fincher]

"Vampire colored"? You mean significantly less red than normal? As one would expect a body drained of blood to look, whether or not it has risen as a vampire?

No, normally the bodies don't have different skin tones from the living, and some of the ones at the beginning had the normal tone. Now that I've checked, though, Brother Sandstone was an exception, albeit one with a more natural skin tone than some of the vampires. So I guess the vampires did employ some degree of misdirection, putting the more natural looking vampires at the entrance while mixing them with ordinary dead bodies.

Edit: Okay, I see you're suggesting that draining victims look different from normal dead bodies, which is hard to disprove since I don't know that we saw any of the normal looking bodies be drained.

[Ruck]

"Vampire colored"? You mean significantly less red than normal? As one would expect a body drained of blood to look, whether or not it has risen as a vampire?


Showing Malack unharmed in the sunlight seems to qualify. Sure, there was an explanation for that, but there's an explanation here, too: Roy and company want to fool Durkon*. So it seems pretty analogous; neither really qualifies as revealing something solely to make the audience believe something that isn't true is, but they both seem to me to kinda qualify to roughly the same extent.

I don't know if you're just living up to your screen name or not, but anyway, my issue is always with storytelling devices that amount to "What you just saw didn't actually happen," or perhaps I could phrase it as, actions a character takes solely to deceive the readership, not other characters.

I don't think that's the case with any of the instances about Malack, as hiding his vampire nature was a necessity for him in the society in which he lived, as was having a way to protect himself from the sun in a desert kingdom.

Here, though, we see creatures like the ones who have come from Roy's Bag of Tricks riding the giraffes. We then see Roy holding the Bag of Tricks. (We even see Roy gesturing with what appears to be a throwing motion similar to one he's used before when pulling from the Bag.)

Since Roy's doing all this before he actually enters the room, it couldn't be for the benefit of fooling Durkula, who as far as I can tell can't see what he's doing. Thus, it would only be to fool us, the reader.

(Also, again, I don't see how it makes sense strategically or tactically for the riders to be anything but creatures from the Bag of Tricks.)

[Gusion]

Hypothetically, if Haley had a wand of glitterdust... would it outline the vampires in gaseous form?

I think it would. This slows them from escaping and potentially blinds them, although vampires have good will saves.

Also, I think I am going to guess that Durkon picked this room is... because he knows there are no cracks in the walls or floors. That he had to scrub the floors as a newbie, or something, and it is an extremely well cared for room. So the vampires can't run away - because there is also only one entrance/exit.

So V will use gust of wind when they try to leave, to keep them in the room...

[Fyraltari]

I don't really expect it to be anything more than the bag of tricks. We've seen him use it before. And we've not seen the party ever use any illusions to make themselves pass as something else. Silent Image (I think?) is all I remember seeing.

elan passed himself as an ogre and as attractive females of the same race as his interlocutor a few times.

Since Roy's doing all this before he actually enters the room, it couldn't be for the benefit of fooling Durkula, who as far as I can tell can't see what he's doing. Thus, it would only be to fool us, the reader.

(Also, again, I don't see how it makes sense strategically or tactically for the riders to be anything but creatures from the Bag of Tricks.)

Assuming they disguised themselves (to get closer to the vampires? I don't know that doesn't seem very useful with the traps and all) Roy would have thrown in additional actual critters from his bag to add to the confusion and help the disguise.

I think not making the corpses outside of Thor's temple vampire-colored until partway through constituted that sort of narrative cheating.

I think The Giant had written himself in a corner when it came to the difference in looks between dead and undead. He established from #1 that dead bodies looked identical to living bodies with X's in their eyes. However he couldn't use that for undead since it would have made reading their expressions impossible so he made them paler as another this "character is not alive" sign. However an undead that doesn't move is supposed to be indentical to a regular corpse. So basically the X eyes and the paler tone are actually visual representations of the same lack of live signs (breathing, pulse, moving eyes, warmer than room temperature body heat, etc). Of course the characters have commented on the Xs before ut they also have taken a shower during exposition scenes so whatever really.

In summary I don't think The Giant intended to cheat here, but his previous choices made it impossible not to without spoiling the surprise and making his characters look like idiots for not noticing the obvious vampires laying all around and had he known he would eventually pull this trick when he draw #1 hewould have given the dead goblins paler skin instead of X eyes.

[Kareasint]

I am fairly certain that the Order has not entered the room yet. They are using summoned creatures to discharge all of the Symbol traps first. With this many vampire clerics in the room, I suspect that they used every Symbol spell in the book. If I had additional Summoning spells, I would send another set into the room. More targets = drained Symbols.

This is a caster fight with both sides stacking as many buff spells as they can. Hilgya has the potential to be the main bomber here since the vampires are likely to have protected themselves from V's spells. This will be fun to watch unfold.

[Goblin_Priest]

True, there was disguise self. But that only targets... well, one's self.

As for narrative cheating, the only example I can think of is Malack's talk bubble color.

[Gusion]

Hilgya has the potential to be the main bomber here since the vampires are likely to have protected themselves from V's spells. This will be fun to watch unfold.

You know, I really hope so. I'd love for her to be the real bad ass here. Both her and V have used some of their spell slots today though, just to note.

But I would LOVE for Roy and Minrah to hang back, Hilgya to walk in and go "remember me? say hello to your son, but first I have a word for you. CHAOS" Which wouldn't hurt Greg at all but the spawn in the room would be in for a bad time. It would also be fitting given Durken cast Holy Word, so you know, there is that.

(I'm assuming V is one level higher here)

Battle ensues with the remaining vampires... with most of the OOTS focusing on the remaining spawn. V casts resilient sphere at Greg but Greg makes his reflect roll. Roy engages Greg; they battle and they smack each other around a little. Hilgya catches Greg with a Heal; V fires a quickened magic missle. End of Greg.

Greg assumes that Roy falls into the same role as the protagonist as always. That he's going to be the lead. Even if he recognizes V as the greater threat, it is still all about Roy. So Roy shows his intelligence and gives Hilgya her revenge by making it all about HER.

And she will be the bringer of (re)death, destroyer of undead.

[Riftwolf]

I don't really expect it to be anything more than the bag of tricks. We've seen him use it before. And we've not seen the party ever use any illusions to make themselves pass as something else. Silent Image (I think?) is all I remember seeing.

Nitpick: Elan used Disguise Self to fool some ogres. V used Veil to hide from Elan and Therkla.
But using illusions to send the lowest hp characters in to trigger the Symbols of Death along with the summon fodder makes negative sense.

[Snails]

Hypothetically, if Haley had a wand of glitterdust... would it outline the vampires in gaseous form?

By the RAW, yes, because gaseous creatures are still corporeal with physical forms, they are just harder to hit.

But The Giant has significantly fudged the rules on gaseous form, which I do not mind. The RAW is to make it not too easy to just wander around and scout the entire dungeon level while invulnerable to things that lack significant magical heft.

By the RAW, turning gaseous against Roy would have been near suicide. But narratively speaking, it is both convenient and less weird to non-rules wonks to have Roy swishing away.