Diablo III: 4 - Necros Aren't Just for Posts Anymore!

[Kadesh]

That's not at all what I said, and its not a direct quote? If somebody wants to play that, its fine, but once you start hitting higher g-rift levels you simply cant take the time to sit there doing scratch damage waiting for your resource to generate.

So play lower ones. What do you gain by playing higher Grifts?

[Keltest]

So play lower ones. What do you gain by playing higher Grifts?

Is this a trick question?

[Psyren]

Is this a trick question?

At the risk of repeating myself, there are multiple resourceless/Aquila builds that are GR100+ viable.

[Keltest]

At the risk of repeating myself, there are multiple resourceless/Aquila builds that are GR100+ viable.

… Yes. That's what im saying. Using resource generators is a trap.

[Rynjin]

… Yes. That's what im saying. Using resource generators is a trap.

But you're...wrong. And don't seem to understand the words you're saying, or what anyone else is talking about. Resourceless builds use resource generators. They're not a trap, because there are quite a few good builds that use them. There's at least one Monk build that uses Crippling Wave as its primary damage dealer, as well as the aforementioned Roland's Crusader, which literally just sits in a crowd of enemies and holds the button for your resource generator of choice and occasionally taps the iron Skin button to victory as enemies kill themselves attacking you.

So I don't get what you're saying. You don't seem to get what you're saying.

[Keltest]

But you're...wrong. And don't seem to understand the words you're saying, or what anyone else is talking about. Resourceless builds use resource generators. They're not a trap, because there are quite a few good builds that use them. There's at least one Monk build that uses Crippling Wave as its primary damage dealer, as well as the aforementioned Roland's Crusader, which literally just sits in a crowd of enemies and holds the button for your resource generator of choice and occasionally taps the iron Skin button to victory as enemies kill themselves attacking you.

So I don't get what you're saying. You don't seem to get what you're saying.

Yes, I think there are several people in this thread who don't understand what im saying, and aren't making an effort to.

[Psyren]

Yes, I think there are several people in this thread who don't understand what im saying, and aren't making an effort to.

Could you try saying it a different way then? Because if three people are this confused by you - especially people who disagree on other topics in this thread - I'm guessing the problem isn't with them.

Resourceless builds use resource generators.

To clarify - some do use generators, but others use spenders that don't drain the resource faster than it naturally accrues, usually from items (Impale DH, TR Monk and Whirlwind Barb would be examples of this kind.)

[Keltest]

Could you try saying it a different way then? Because if three people are this confused by you - especially people who disagree on other topics in this thread - I'm guessing the problem isn't with them.



To clarify - some do use generators, but others use spenders that don't drain the resource faster than it naturally accrues, usually from items (Impale DH, TR Monk and Whirlwind Barb would be examples of this kind.)

I am greatly disinclined to go out of my way to try and communicate with somebody who led with a strawman and then tried to claim they were directly quoting me.

[Rynjin]

I am greatly disinclined to go out of my way to try and communicate with somebody who led with a strawman and then tried to claim they were directly quoting me.

*scratches head*

Is that me? I don't remember replying to you at any other point during this thread. Doesn't look like it's Psyren either.

I'm just confused by the current line of discussion.

[Keltest]

*scratches head*

Is that me? I don't remember replying to you at any other point during this thread. Doesn't look like it's Psyren either.

I'm just confused by the current line of discussion.

Sorry, Kadesh was the one who specifically used a strawman. But the point is, Im not going to make an effort to explain myself to people who aren't making an effort to understand me.

[Kadesh]

Yes, I think there are several people in this thread who don't understand what im saying, and aren't making an effort to.

'Everyone else is wrong because they clearly can't understand my higher intellect.' is what I see when I read between the lines here. Might want to crawl down there buddy, or learn to explain yourself what you mean better.

Generator Builds are fun. So I play them. Let's say I reach a nominal GR, let's call it GRX. I'm at a plateau, but having fun with my build. What about if I get to GRX+30 with another build, but am at a plateau, yet I hate the gameplay.

Literally nothing has changed apart from adding a few zeroes to your numbers on enemy defense.

Unless you think someone running Sebor's Belt and Goldwrap or whatever should be able to compete at the bleeding edge, which is an interesting thought.

Sorry, Kadesh was the one who specifically used a strawman. But the point is, Im not going to make an effort to explain myself to people who aren't making an effort to understand me.

'Strawman' : you mean the part where I said doing 1% damage to an enemy at GR70 is exactly the same gameplay as doing 1% damage at GR130?

[The_Jackal]

Most of the builds that depend on this can achieve near 100% uptime on these effects, which has its own warping effect on what 'viable' builds are - one of the ones that most annoys me is Demon Hunters with Vengeance, because there is a generic artifact that cuts its base cooldown by more than half, and another one that gives it its 'Reduce damage by 50%' rune.. and when you can have 80 - 100% uptime on a buff that is both a huge damage bonus, a major defensive buff, and can significantly reduce any resource management issues you might have by slotting it with the 'bonus Hatred per second' rune.. there's basically nothing else that is as good as that, so not doing it is self-nerfing. So nearly every top Demon Hunter build has two cube slots taken up with those artifacts and a mandatory skill slot for Vengeance.

Yes, with the right gear, but this doesn't make the mechanic any less cumbersome and infurating for me. I put it to you that a 'push this button to keep this button pressed' is not gameplay, by any reasonable measure. Yes, then there's the question of build diversity, where, again, a handful of overtuned items wind up creeping their way into every viable build.

The bolded is in direct contradiction from start to finish. You don't begrudge what someone else finds exciting, and yet when that build gets a higher GR than you, you find it irritating?

The builds exist, the builds play. The fact that some build can do 10million DPS, and another 100million, so what, when the boss you fight has 100billion HP or 1000billion, depending on your chosen difficulty level?

Yes, yes, I dispensed with this like 10 posts ago: The solution to crummy design is to declare victory, quit playing, and move onto other, better games. Believe me, I'm way ahead of you. The whole topic of this particular subthread was "Why The Jackal stopped playing Diablo III". If you like playing Simon or Dance-Dance Revolution or Guitar Hero, I salute you. I, however, was hoping for Diablo.

[The_Jackal]

Yes, I think there are several people in this thread who don't understand what im saying, and aren't making an effort to.

This is why the GiantITP forums need an upvote function.

[Keltest]

'Everyone else is wrong because they clearly can't understand my higher intellect.' is what I see when I read between the lines here. Might want to crawl down there buddy, or learn to explain yourself what you mean better.

Generator Builds are fun. So I play them. Let's say I reach a nominal GR, let's call it GRX. I'm at a plateau, but having fun with my build. What about if I get to GRX+30 with another build, but am at a plateau, yet I hate the gameplay.

Literally nothing has changed apart from adding a few zeroes to your numbers on enemy defense.

Unless you think someone running Sebor's Belt and Goldwrap or whatever should be able to compete at the bleeding edge, which is an interesting thought.



'Strawman' : you mean the part where I said doing 1% damage to an enemy at GR70 is exactly the same gameplay as doing 1% damage at GR130?

No, I mean the part where you falsely attributed a quote to me and then tried to argue against it.

If theres no difference in the rifts, why should I even play? Ive beaten GR 70, ive seen everything there is to see and killed it. Whats even the point?

[Kadesh]

I literally quoted you. And now you're getting into existentialism. Whst is the point in doing anything? Nobody is forcing you to play, nobody is forcing you to play bleeding edge tier D3 Ladder with builds you categorically hate.

[Keltest]

I literally quoted you. And now you're getting into existentialism. Whst is the point in doing anything? Nobody is forcing you to play, nobody is forcing you to play bleeding edge tier D3 Ladder with builds you categorically hate.

No, if you had literally quoted me, the words you put in quotes would have matched the ones I typed. That's what quoting somebody means.

And now youre making my point for me. If the 0s don't matter, D3 has no endgame. If they do matter, then I cant actually play the way I want, I have to play according to whatever the flavor of the patch is.

[Psyren]

Sorry, Kadesh was the one who specifically used a strawman. But the point is, Im not going to make an effort to explain myself to people who aren't making an effort to understand me.

If literally asking you to repeat what you said isn't "making an effort to understand you," then GG I guess?

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If theres no difference in the rifts, why should I even play? Ive beaten GR 70, ive seen everything there is to see and killed it. Whats even the point?

The point is to stop wherever you feel like stopping. Not to lament that other builds can go 130 while yours can only go 115, and call that a design failure because you personally don't find the 130 build fun to play.

If you like playing Simon or Dance-Dance Revolution or Guitar Hero, I salute you. I, however, was hoping for Diablo.

I'm increasingly convinced that very few people here have actually played Diablo, or at least remember the core gameplay loop of the first two titles in anything approaching detail.

[Keltest]

If literally asking you to repeat what you said isn't "making an effort to understand you," then GG I guess?

Spoiler

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The point is to stop wherever you feel like stopping. Not to lament that other builds can go 130 while yours can only go 115, and call that a design failure because you personally don't find the 130 build fun to play.



I'm increasingly convinced that very few people here have actually played Diablo, or at least remember the core gameplay loop of the first two titles in anything approaching detail.

And what if I can only make it to 50? 30? Where is the cutoff point for where my "play how I want, not how the pros play" build needs to be viable? What if I want to take it higher but cant because it isn't supported by the "add five more zeroes to your numbers" gear?

Also, im literally playing D2 right now (waiting for my friend to get a drink while posting) so...

[Winthur]

That stuff was needed in D2 because its own RNG was far worse. In over a decade of play I never once saw a rune above Gul drop; without duped runes, some builds would simply be things I read about online, never getting to try them myself, perhaps never even seeing them in game even on other people. And before you ask, yes, I did countless Countess runs, sent multiple alts to the Hellforge, and all kinds of other face-melting grind that I had time for as a teenager but don't anymore.

Bruh, the highest rune you can get from Hell Hellforge (what a mouthful!) is Gul. Likewise, the chance for Countess to drop anything above Gul is much, much lower than for Gul, and it stops on Lo. This is probably why. These are good methods for either slowly but steadily cubing up to Ber or gearing up low-mid tier characters (Barbarians are already ridiculously strong with just a humble Oath berserker axe, for example), but the stuff you're mentioning is a mere stopgap.

Because I'll tell you what "profoundly hampered" me - having to nerf all my output by stacking Magic Find to have any hope of getting decent gear. Yet another thing D3 does better.

Runedrops are unaffected by MF. There's plenty of MF builds that, ironically, run ideally on exactly 0% MF and focus on gathering a ton of white drops (diadems for imbues, Phase Blades, Mage Plates, Monarchs), runes, perfect gems and keys. If you were running Countess and Hellforge primarily, your character needs precisely no MF. That means D2 lets you do

1) Hell Cows
2) Hell Lower Kurast ("superchests" can drop up to Ber)
3) keyrunning
4) Ubers themselves (in your later post you mention that there's a "narrow amount of builds" that can do this arguable "endgame", but you're forgetting D2 also had PvP, which, due to how insane rares and sc's could go for, as well as the scene around it, was a goal of its own; you weren't touching PvP without truly high-end gear whereas, as I mentioned, Uber Tristram can be cleared by a Smiter with gear available in Normal Difficulty. Same can be done by kicksins and necro summoners.)
5) Hellforge rushing
6) literally just killing a whole bunch of dungeons because you feel like doing so and maybe something drops a Vex or whatever

with precisely 0% MF. If you did as much of all that stuff, you're very liable to find something decent in Hell Act IV by sheer accident (River of Flame is an a85) and you can cube up in the HF until you get your coveted item.

Bonus points - you can throw whatever you just got on every character in your possession because nothing is soulbound, so that Enigma stays there. Additional bonus points - while doing all that crap you'll probably have received plenty of low-level items that your typical d2jsp accepts for a few pgems while there's an entire wealth of decent low-mid end builds that can clear hell of their own and enjoy a change of pace.

MF exists for
1) untwinked single-pass runners who want the RNG impact on getting any decent loot minimized so they can progress faster because they're not going to, and they compensate for lost stats with personal skill
2) people who are already running farm content that they have no problem killing (hello, Moat Trick) because it's better to have 100% MF less than to keep dying and slowing yourself down because you're not meeting FCR thresholds or don't have CBF.
It's been figured out a long time ago that killing speed >>> MF, and the only reason your typical 4 soc P.Topaz gothic plate + 3soc P.Topaz crown sorc with Rhyme + Spirit + generic +3 ammy is working is because Andariel and Mephisto are extremely easy to kill for this build. This extends itself to those lucrative high MF area runs where slamming more FCR and more +skill into your gosu Pit Strafer / CS Hammerdin / WSK Hybridzon / Ancient Tunnels Blizzsorc doesn't matter anymore (stuff still dies in a few seconds), so you can start getting MF.

Even so, you can easily farm any area 85 with a summoning Necro wearing fully Topazed Charsi food and keeping a Staff of Teleport on weapon switch, just not at a high player count (Corpse Explosion stops being an insane screen clear at /p5+ or so) and much slower, but at least you're really not actively gimping yourself by equipping MF% on Necro in any way since that build barely scales with gear.

I'm increasingly convinced that very few people here have actually played Diablo, or at least remember the core gameplay loop of the first two titles in anything approaching detail.

Don't even bother mixing the "first" title into this discussion, there was very little endgame or competitive focus to speak of, any child could dupe items to max out stats at level 1 because the trick was well-known and really easy to perform, it was way more slow paced and the focus on AoEing down entire screens was only descended on the one flawed-by-design class that was the best, (in spite of Hell having 100% immune monsters to any damaging magic, PvE Sorcerer was still the most dominating class at any level and the fastest levelling was achieved by equipping mage stuff on your Warrior/Rogue and just CLing everything... but very few actually played like that and Hell/Cata stops being that efficient at levelling past level 42, where you certainly weren't even obliged to progress at all), BiS gear for Hell could likewise be found as early as Normal or Nightmare (particularly Sorcerer, whereas the Warrior BiS weapon could be easily bought at Griswold of all places), and the only real amusement left after 3-dotting was the PvP, clan scene, or levelling to 50. Not sure what attributes are you giving to the first two games, but they had way, way more substance than "endless loot treadmill" and I'd rather if we argued about D3 on its own merits (what works and what doesn't) instead of arguing D3 is better at being D3 than D2 or D1. Many people never even touched the MP mode in that game, and D1 is even distinctive because SP and MP is a different experience and not just a cosmetic difference like in D2.

[Psyren]

And what if I can only make it to 50? 30? Where is the cutoff point for where my "play how I want, not how the pros play" build needs to be viable? What if I want to take it higher but cant because it isn't supported by the "add five more zeroes to your numbers" gear?

I've answered this numerous times already, but I'll do it again: GR70 is the highest GR that gates content. The season journey conquests require this level, as well as unlocking Primal Ancients. Nothing above this level matters for anything tangible.

Also, im literally playing D2 right now (waiting for my friend to get a drink while posting) so...

I'm literally playing D3 right now, on Switch. Bf and I just unlocked the S16 wings actually.

Bruh, the highest rune you can get from Hell Hellforge (what a mouthful!) is Gul. Likewise, the chance for Countess to drop anything above Gul is much, much lower than for Gul, and it stops on Lo. This is probably why. These are good methods for either slowly but steadily cubing up to Ber or gearing up low-mid tier characters (Barbarians are already ridiculously strong with just a humble Oath berserker axe, for example), but the stuff you're mentioning is a mere stopgap.

Bruh, the point is there's nothing you can do to affect the droprates of those higher runes. Nothing, it's all RNG, and bad RNG at that. At best you can spam a lot of low/mid runes and cube them up.

Runedrops are unaffected by MF.

The stuff you can trade for runes is though. I traded a full set of Tals for my first Jah rune.

Will read the rest later, have more rifts to run.

[Winthur]

Bruh, the point is there's nothing you can do to affect the droprates of those higher runes. Nothing, it's all RNG, and bad RNG at that. At best you can spam a lot of low/mid runes and cube them up.

setting the game to a higher /players setting (or doing your farming in crowded pubs or trade games) is a decent way to go (outside of Countess, that is, as Countess' rune drop is actually worse on /p8 because her loot table is skewered towards producing items instead of runes if you crank the /players setting up), and even though LK chestpopping isn't a guaranteed way to get a Ber it's still one of the more statistically likely if you don't care about how boring this approach is and just want a Ber over just playing your character in whatever content you like.

The point of my post is that if all you care about is HRs then you wouldn't need to "nerf your damage" by diluting your important stats with MF. MF is there for finding Uniques and Sets; for everything else, you just want to go to a saturated area and kill everything as fast as possible. A proverbial Javazon with a cracked Javelin can easily do Hell Cows without even risking the Cow King kill. Your droprate of whatever it is you're looking for is affected by how fast you kill something. without insane gear even a Lightning Sorceress doesn't compare (I'm talking about a 200 Faster Cast Rate capped Light Sorc) because even budget Javas tend to get high Pierce, even higher if the relatively easy to find Razortail is in play.

So yeah, your best bet of getting HRs is to either pop chests or kill a lot of highly densely packed stuff really fast, maximize amount of mobs per kill. Compare to other builds which might be good only at AoE clearing but take a long while on bosses (Summoner Necro) or vice versa (budget MF Berserker Barbarian /w Find Item and +3 Warcries statsticks on switch).

This is why the Meph sorc gets outdated by a85 runners when you get gear. Without gear you're either stacked on MF and farm easy bosses and areas (e.g. Blizzsorc can run Andy / Meph / AT / and I think Eldritch/Shenk) or you go 0% MF and go for drop volume instead (cow Javazon). With gear you can balance your MF and killspeed until you get the best of both worlds (e.g. MF Hammerdins in CS / WSK teleporting around and receiving a ton of uniques including ones Meph doesn't drop). And then there are people who build their economy exclusively on market expectations and instead sell Baal grand charms, gosu small charms, gosu rares gambled from horking for gold in Travincal or ridiculously good rolls on Crafted items.

And none of this stuff even matters because if your criterium for "end-game" is Hell Ubers, there, again, are builds that do this fight with Normal-grade items and some others that take just a tiny bit of gear more. I named three that work on a budget, belong to three different classes, and I will add that Frenzybarb can also do this on a moderate budget, a far cry from the high-rune builds (the Frenzy build can probably be "bought" for a price of Um, Lem, and a few pgems). If the zdps meta was more prominent in D2 than the occasional multiboxed barb lackey for bo's, the entrypoint would be even lesser.

The truth is most Diablo players set their own end-game, whether it is getting a character through Hell on solo self-found (perhaps with a deliberately gimped build), completing a Holy Grail, killing Ubers, going into PvP or just making a character you like and would enjoy revisiting every so often. You can even have a Hell-viable D2 romp without repeating previously visited areas!

Even D3 lets you maintain this experience. I bought it recently for a friend after being a massive Blizzard North fanatic and honestly, for what it is, it's pretty damn good, I'm enjoying it, and I'm not anticipating I'm going to push GRifts too hard. I just want to complete a set, get excited over a drop if it shows up, do some Paragons. It doesn't have to be an endless loot treadmill and the nature of the game doesn't have to be that of endless, joyless grind if that's not what you find fun. D3 gives you an end-game with a more discernible ceiling, I can admit. But the D2 gameplay that included botting, farming the same crap over and over was still a minority. D2 even had leaderboards for who levelled the fastest, and do you think that the rush to level 99 (or even attempting to complete it) was attempted by anyone but a small subset of the playerbase?

The other day I saw a Youtube personality who claimed he set up an "untwinked" bowazon through Hell, and then in the video the first thing he did was twink it. His rationale was he thought that "untwinked" = "twinked with low-end gear". Some people can't imagine solo self-found being doable in D2, but it very much is, even with the underpowered - but still fairly safe and even entertaining - bow builds.

[Psyren]

Okay, I have more time for a detailed reply now.

Bruh, the highest rune you can get from Hell Hellforge (what a mouthful!) is Gul. Likewise, the chance for Countess to drop anything above Gul is much, much lower than for Gul, and it stops on Lo. This is probably why. These are good methods for either slowly but steadily cubing up to Ber or gearing up low-mid tier characters (Barbarians are already ridiculously strong with just a humble Oath berserker axe, for example), but the stuff you're mentioning is a mere stopgap.

(Bruh,) There's nothing good about Countess runs, Hellforge or any of the other mindless farming that was mandatory in D2. We did it so that we could unlock the thing that was actually fun (trying new builds) and because we had no other noteworthy games to play at the time, not because the farming itself was engaging. This is why I vastly prefer D3 - rifts and GRs give you a much more varied layout, and when you combine that with elite affixes, mob placement, shrines/pylons, and random events like goblins and assassins, it makes for much more engaging gameplay. Add in the bad luck protection of crafting and in my view, it's head and shoulders above its predecessor.

Runedrops are unaffected by MF. There's plenty of MF builds that, ironically, run ideally on exactly 0% MF and focus on gathering a ton of white drops (diadems for imbues, Phase Blades, Mage Plates, Monarchs), runes, perfect gems and keys. If you were running Countess and Hellforge primarily, your character needs precisely no MF.

I spoke to this above, but because of the horrendous droprates, often the best way to "farm runes" was to do anything but. Trading perfect or UNID uniques/sets/charms/jewels for high runes is the only way I even got to see most of them. Farming and cubing up runes directly to get all the runes I wanted to try would have taken me months of spamming mostly unchallenging content.

And yes, farming eths and whites to socket was also an option - but even at 0 MF, those were rarer than blues (from bosses anyway) so your best bet for those was killing hordes of trash - boring, tedious, mind-numbing trash. At least a boss fight can somewhat stimulate.

That means D2 lets you do

1) Hell Cows
2) Hell Lower Kurast ("superchests" can drop up to Ber)
3) keyrunning
4) Ubers themselves (in your later post you mention that there's a "narrow amount of builds" that can do this arguable "endgame", but you're forgetting D2 also had PvP, which, due to how insane rares and sc's could go for, as well as the scene around it, was a goal of its own; you weren't touching PvP without truly high-end gear whereas, as I mentioned, Uber Tristram can be cleared by a Smiter with gear available in Normal Difficulty. Same can be done by kicksins and necro summoners.)
5) Hellforge rushing
6) literally just killing a whole bunch of dungeons because you feel like doing so and maybe something drops a Vex or whatever

with precisely 0% MF. If you did as much of all that stuff, you're very liable to find something decent in Hell Act IV by sheer accident (River of Flame is an a85) and you can cube up in the HF until you get your coveted item.

There are plenty of places to farm high runes, sure. But the rune droprates are still terrible in each one, they're just not as terrible as they are everywhere else.

Concerning point #4, you mentioned exactly three builds that can clear Ubers without needing high-end gear. I believe the summon necro because nothing can hit you to make your gear matter while you're afking in the corner, and I somewhat believe the smiter since paladins can get their resists high almost effortlessly, but every Uber list I've seen for the kicker includes crap like Last Wish, Ber'd SS and upped Gores. Even if you're right though, that's still far fewer D3 builds than can clear GR70/T15.

Bonus points - you can throw whatever you just got on every character in your possession because nothing is soulbound, so that Enigma stays there. Additional bonus points - while doing all that crap you'll probably have received plenty of low-level items that your typical d2jsp accepts for a few pgems while there's an entire wealth of decent low-mid end builds that can clear hell of their own and enjoy a change of pace.

The ability to trade is the one point I'll give you, and I did move my Enigma around until I got a second one. As I said previously, I wouldn't complain if trading came back to D3. Of course, that also throws your PvP point out the window, since I could jump back into D2 right now with my credit card and have a full set of high-end gear from a botter in less than an hour without putting any of the work in.

*snip*

Not sure what attributes are you giving to the first two games, but they had way, way more substance than "endless loot treadmill" and I'd rather if we argued about D3 on its own merits (what works and what doesn't) instead of arguing D3 is better at being D3 than D2 or D1.

By "Diablo" I actually meant the series, but I agree with you that the first game doesn't really merit discussion with all the duping and hacking that was going on making the itemization/loot loop pointless.

As for D2 having more substance, I quite frankly disagree for reasons mentioned numerous times earlier in this discussion, but I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on that. But that doesn't mean I think D2 is bad, I think both games have their place, but for me the decisions made and the evolution from 2 to 3 needed to happen, even if they stumbled at launch.

[Winthur]

(Bruh,) There's nothing good about Countess runs, Hellforge or any of the other mindless farming that was mandatory in D2.

It isn't. You don't need to do any of this if you want to play in Hell. You don't need to do any of this if you want to roll multiple characters that are viable in Hell. Your dedicated Meph sorceress, if you even bothered to have one, can vomit out a ton of budget uniques that easily carry most builds you can think of. High-end optimization isn't necessary to make a competent CS/WSK runner. You argued for Hell viability earlier being a massive roadblock in D2 because it kills interesting build ideas, but in truth, solo self-found characters have at least 3-4 viable builds per character class. The only characters that need twinking are stuff like Wolfbarb or Passion Sorc who understandably want to unlock their build's core feature as early as possible, otherwise what's the point. (Note that D2 actually allows for such oddball builds to happen, and in some cases they're ridiculously strong, e.g. the Whirlwind Assassin.)

We did it so that we could unlock the thing that was actually fun (trying new builds) and because we had no other noteworthy games to play at the time, not because the farming itself was engaging. This is why I vastly prefer D3 - rifts and GRs give you a much more varied layout, and when you combine that with elite affixes, mob placement, shrines/pylons, and random events like goblins and assassins, it makes for much more engaging gameplay.

If you hate bossrunning or killing trash over and over, roll a character optimized for a85 and play those at your leisure. Your typical cowrun amazon is also pretty decent at clearing Eldritch, Pindle, Baal and Diablo. Those are all pretty varied areas. If you want to just run around Act 5 and enter random dungeons, you can. Hell Mephisto sorceress is the fastest at gathering low-mid uniques that consist the core of typical twinked characters, but there's no use to playing that if you simply can't be bothered.

And yes, farming eths and whites to socket was also an option - but even at 0 MF, those were rarer than blues (from bosses anyway) so your best bet for those was killing hordes of trash - boring, tedious, mind-numbing trash. At least a boss fight can somewhat stimulate.

Most areas where HC characters meet their demise aren't act bosses or super uniques (outside of Nihlathak, who demands the player to walk into the area with a minesweeper kit) but random trash fights caused by player mistake or Minions surrounding a particularly nasty boss pack that also drop all sorts of stuff. This has been the case since D1 - The Dark Lord himself wasn't nearly as scary as the Blood Knight / Advocate hordes that littered his chamber. Baal is generally less of a threat to most characters than Lister the Tormentor and pals.

There are plenty of places to farm high runes, sure. But the rune droprates are still terrible in each one, they're just not as terrible as they are everywhere else.

Yes, but you're still running a high-level area on top of that, so you're also going to receive a fairly steady flurry of uniques, rares, charms and all sorts of other stuff. Valuable items for a player at low wealth level can include anything as simple as a +3 skill amulet with lightning resistance thrown in.

Concerning point #4, you mentioned exactly three builds that can clear Ubers without needing high-end gear. I believe the summon necro because nothing can hit you to make your gear matter while you're afking in the corner, and I somewhat believe the smiter since paladins can get their resists high almost effortlessly, but every Uber list I've seen for the kicker includes crap like Last Wish, Ber'd SS and upped Gores. Even if you're right though, that's still far fewer D3 builds than can clear GR70/T15.

I also added Frenzybarb as an addendum to another post, who genuinely can do this challenge with just a source of Life Tap, Crushing Blow, and a few budget runewords. You can also do this with a Fury and/or Feral Rage druid, for that matter, due to insane proccing of lifesteal and CB. Pretty much every single one of these builds can rely on budget gear, stuff like Fleshripper, War Travelers, Dracul's Grasp, runeword armor like Treachery (for Fade proc) or Duress, Guillaume's Face, Crescent Moon runeword, Goblin Toe boots (probably the Holy Grail of all the budget Normal shoes, these are unique Light Plated Boots and people give them away for free in pub games), Duriel's Shell, Stormlash.
Kicksin in particular doesn't really care for stats on her primary weapon, so you can even get away with stuff like Black and Strength runewords or even a Crushflange.
Note that I'm not talking about the neutered PlugY version of the Ubers which doesn't have adds; these builds come from as early as the patch was introduced. All you need is Crushing Blow, Life Tap (available from Wand) and high resistance count. Otherwise, it's all about lifestealing as fast as possible while isolating the trio from one another through exceptional footwork and careful pulling. You don't need high gear to do this.
Frankly, I'd be certain that this is the main area in D2 that melees have an advantage over casters (due to massive amounts of life leech needed to outlast the bosses, as well as mods like Open Wounds and Crushing Blow), and that most melee builds can do this cheaply. Depending on expenses. Kicksin, Druid, Barb, Smiter and Necromancer can do this with budget gear. But so can a melee Sorceress (with Enchant and Meteor spam), she just needs higher gear. Or an Amazon with the right gear (still nothing outlandish) focusing on Jab (could probably even do it with the standard issue 1 point Jab, to be honest).

The ability to trade is the one point I'll give you, and I did move my Enigma around until I got a second one. As I said previously, I wouldn't complain if trading came back to D3. Of course, that also throws your PvP point out the window, since I could jump back into D2 right now with my credit card and have a full set of high-end gear from a botter in less than an hour without putting any of the work in.

Oh, you could, but that's just on you. Meanwhile, if I really wanted to reach even the PvP ceiling that I posit to be D2's true endgame, I could probably just roll a Trang-Oul necro or a 105 fcr fire sorc with wizardspike and Spirit monarch. Most of what is actually expensive is charmsets or enigma, and I doubt I will need that to pubstomp trade games.

By "Diablo" I actually meant the series, but I agree with you that the first game doesn't really merit discussion with all the duping and hacking that was going on making the itemization/loot loop pointless.

And also the concerns with the fact that Sorcerer can get most of his BiS gear in Normal difficulty while the other classes could shop for their best weapons at Griswold or (much less so) Wirt. Sometimes you can just feel like popping into the game, slaying some monsters, and identify every blue Ring or Ammy that drops. D1's thresholds on successful Hell/Hell clearing also aren't nearly as prohibitive, and most people played it because desperately setting up a kill room against a pack of Vipers and Balrogs chasing you was simply fun.

Let me just ask - do you care about being competitive? Because if you don't, D2 doesn't force you into those hardcore competitive measures and nobody needs to set up dedicated farming characters and be endlessly bored. I understand D3 allows the ceiling of the competition to be more easily perceived, but I might as well complain about having to adhere to the strict meta to reach this perceivable end-game, whether it is by following the FotM sets or playing the zDPS lackey for my friend. But you don't have to roll solo DH or zDPS Monk if you want to enjoy what the game has to offer!, you might say. And you don't need to roll 2x ebotd coh frenzy barb to have fun with D2, either.

If you wanted more excitement out of your D2 journey, you rolled HC where making a pure MF cheese sorc is going to get you killed without great care, full Rejuvs at all times, quick reflexes, good planning and high FCR and FHR, and, in fact, any mundane MF run can get you killed.

I also see that the "bruh" was out of line / sorta douchey, and I apologise.

[Psyren]

I also see that the "bruh" was out of line / sorta douchey, and I apologise.

Now that's refreshing - I'll make an effort to moderate my tone too, thank you

Let me just ask - do you care about being competitive? Because if you don't, D2 doesn't force you into those hardcore competitive measures and nobody needs to set up dedicated farming characters and be endlessly bored. I understand D3 allows the ceiling of the competition to be more easily perceived, but I might as well complain about having to adhere to the strict meta to reach this perceivable end-game, whether it is by following the FotM sets or playing the zDPS lackey for my friend. But you don't have to roll solo DH or zDPS Monk if you want to enjoy what the game has to offer!, you might say. And you don't need to roll 2x ebotd coh frenzy barb to have fun with D2, either.

I think the fundamental disconnect among all of us is defining what "competitive" even means for these games. For me, it means a build that can both see and clear all the unique content the game has to offer and can access all the loot drops, which is why I consistently hold up Ubers and GR70 as my standard for that term. For someone else, it might mean wanting to see their name show up on a solo leaderboard. For someone else it might mean having a high winrate in PvP.

Speaking personally I have no desire for the latter two. I PvPed in D2 purely because there wasn't much else to do with all the supergear I had amassed over time except to see how I did in public duels, due to the utter lack of PvE endgame. I don't enjoy PvP for its own sake,certainly not now that I don't have hours and hours to sink into perfecting my gear anymore and will get creamed by those who do even if they are not actually that much more skilled. And I certainly don't care about a scoreboard, where the folks on top are the ones with oodles of free time to pour into making their builds as OCD-perfect as possible, plus have a decent helping of luck with getting good randomized layouts getting them to the pinata quickly.

Last point, concerning off-the-wall "oskill builds" like Whirlsin and Wolfbarb - Yeah, they existed, but as you noted they came online so late that they were gimmicks more often than not. I won't deny some found them fun, but I consider them to be novelties at best. Part of what I enjoy about D3 isn't just the variety of builds for each class, it's how each of them still feels like they belong with that class, because they are built from class sets or from LoN legendaries designed for those classes. When I make a ranged monk in D3 for example, it's using stuff like LTK and WoL, not Multishot or Firebats that belong to other classes.

If you wanted more excitement out of your D2 journey, you rolled HC where making a pure MF cheese sorc is going to get you killed without great care, full Rejuvs at all times, quick reflexes, good planning and high FCR and FHR, and, in fact, any mundane MF run can get you killed.

Sorry, but HC is a complete non-starter for me in any game that has aspects like latency and crashes that can ever be outside my control.That goes for every game in the genre, never mind this franchise.

[Winthur]

I think the fundamental disconnect among all of us is defining what "competitive" even means for these games. For me, it means a build that can both see and clear all the unique content the game has to offer and can access all the loot drops, which is why I consistently hold up Ubers and GR70 as my standard for that term.

Technically you could make a case that "accessing all the loot drops" would involve making a character that's of a high enough level to craft great gear with the best mods or something, but in general, I find that even low-budget characters don't have a problem accessing your personal brand of end-game content in D2. I've already talked about killing Ubers being more or less within reach of most characters. Remember that most of the "competitive" UT builds are focused on clearing it in a few minutes rather than a longer standoff, too, but as long as you don't die and keep being persistent, you will kill the boss. Lifesteal and maybe full rejuvs can keep you up for an indefinite amount of time.

I think that originally the extremely low drop-rate on certain items was meant to ensure their rarity, so that you could have some very unique playthroughs even when following a standard build. This is one of the reasons I never really cared much for progressing gear into the "godly" levels - it's more fun to get through Hell with a low-mid tier powered character.
I do understand the desire to completely wipe the floor with everyone with a godly character, as that can be a fun, cathartic experience. I'm just not sure I buy the argument where it's a necessity. I wouldn't mind adjudicating the drop rates so that higher-level gear would be more accessible (in fact, neither did Blizzard considering that the latest patch increased the rune drop rate), but I also don't think the design of the game ultimately suffers because of this. If you don't want to be competitive, you don't have to be - and that would be the core of my argument.

Last point, concerning off-the-wall "oskill builds" like Whirlsin and Wolfbarb - Yeah, they existed, but as you noted they came online so late that they were gimmicks more often than not. I won't deny some found them fun, but I consider them to be novelties at best. Part of what I enjoy about D3 isn't just the variety of builds for each class, it's how each of them still feels like they belong with that class, because they are built from class sets or from LoN legendaries designed for those classes. When I make a ranged monk in D3 for example, it's using stuff like LTK and WoL, not Multishot or Firebats that belong to other classes.

This is a valid way to look at it, but I think of it more as a "huh, this item gives me access to a completely different skillset outside of my class? Let's see if I can build around it", which extends the lifespan of the game if you enjoy a variety of builds. I thought it was a nice thing about D2 itemization. D3 did get a lot of criticism pre-RoS about the stats on the weapon not mattering nearly as much as its DPS stat, for example, and there being virtually no point to any stat other than your class stat.

Sorry, but HC is a complete non-starter for me in any game that has aspects like latency and crashes that can ever be outside my control.That goes for every game in the genre, never mind this franchise.

You could do this on Single Player, I suppose.

Also, on that note: I think D1 and D2 were built with the idea of preventing homogenization by ensuring that the drop rates on items would be affected by massive disparity so you couldn't just have everyone run around with BiS gear. However, by the time they hit D2, they didn't count on the sheer amount of dupes and botting that would arise around this game. I wouldn't be surprised if their original intent wasn't to allow characters that can easily solo all of the content without a whole lot of effort within the span of a single ladder season. That said, I still think that D2's original design (if Blizzard's explicit non-endorsement of muling is to be believed) can hold up and you don't need top gear to succeed.
I think D3 embraced this homogenization somewhat with a greater emphasis on sets and whatnot, which ties up to my comments about "more perceivable end-game ceiling" earlier.
Thanks for the discussion, I'm not sure if we can add more to it, but maybe.

[The_Jackal]

I think the fundamental disconnect among all of us is defining what "competitive" even means for these games. For me, it means a build that can both see and clear all the unique content the game has to offer and can access all the loot drops, which is why I consistently hold up Ubers and GR70 as my standard for that term.

I think that's a fair bar, and I would describe my own goals as fairly similar. I like to grow my power and collect loot, I don't particularly feel the need to participate in the leaderboards, as they're really just an expression of time investment anyway.

The problem with saying that GR70 is "enough" is when we start dipping into the drop rate mechanics inherent in Diablo 3's loot system. Simply put, the higher difficulty you clear, the more quickly you will get the legendary drops from which your endgame gear supply is coming. If you're running an off-standard build that can clear Torment 3, for example, and a cookie cutter build can run Torment 4 at a comparable rate, you're effectively paying a ~40% tax in your rate of progression by running a non-cookie-cutter build. It doesn't matter where in the progression timeline you are, it doesn't matter what your goals and aspirations for what you intend to achieve in game: An off-meta build costs you time, and quite a lot of it.

[Psyren]

Apologies for not quoting you, as the passages are quite lengthy and I want to keep this a bit more digestible. Let me know if I miss a point you wanted addressed.

Concerning viability - I know that you can technically succeed with a weak but very survivable character that whittles the boss down, or even a less survivable one that just goes in and dies repeatedly. That's not really what I'm after though. This is another bit of design I thought D3 did better - by preventing their story bosses from being taken down in this way, and by using timers on GRs to gate the content. It's not just beating GR70 that gives you the unlock, it's beating it solo within the time limit. It gives you a very clear standard of what constitutes "viability" to shoot for.

Not really talking about the godlike characters here since we're discussing minimum standards and build diversity.

Concerning itemization: Not much to say here, as stated I'd rather modify a skill that fits my class than just be handed one from somebody else's. The latter to me is just lazy - much like how they didn't make or balance movement abilities for most of the classes in D2 and instead gave everybody the sorc's teleport, with said lack of balance leading to some classes (like Hammerdin and Summonecro) being able to put it to much, much better use than others.

Concerning Hardcore: Doing it on singleplayer means no ladder and therefore no ladder-only rewards or enemies, which takes it right back to the issue I noted earlier of missing out on content. And yes, you can play Ladder games solo, but those still require server connectivity and therefore your character you sunk hours, days, or even weeks into can die forever through no fault of your own. No, just no.

I agree with your categorization of the ceiling.

[Psyren]

I think that's a fair bar, and I would describe my own goals as fairly similar. I like to grow my power and collect loot, I don't particularly feel the need to participate in the leaderboards, as they're really just an expression of time investment anyway.

The problem with saying that GR70 is "enough" is when we start dipping into the drop rate mechanics inherent in Diablo 3's loot system. Simply put, the higher difficulty you clear, the more quickly you will get the legendary drops from which your endgame gear supply is coming. If you're running an off-standard build that can clear Torment 3, for example, and a cookie cutter build can run Torment 4 at a comparable rate, you're effectively paying a ~40% tax in your rate of progression by running a non-cookie-cutter build. It doesn't matter where in the progression timeline you are, it doesn't matter what your goals and aspirations for what you intend to achieve in game: An off-meta build costs you time, and quite a lot of it.

And again I say to you, if you're trying to farm loot on GRs, you're doing it very wrong. One small set of drops from the end boss, no matter how high the droprate is cranked due to difficulty (at the expense of clear speed, I'll remind you), just cannot be compared to the piles and piles of loot you can get from a T13 speedrun. Not to mention the fact that goblins and Breaths can't even spawn in GRs. The loot from a GR is a nice bonus, but trust me when i say most people would be doing them even if they gave you absolutely nothing but leggem levels and shards.

The GR70 bar is only there so that you can get primals to start showing up in T13. Try to farm them (or any other loot except leggems) in GRs, and you will only find yourself way behind everyone who is doing it the sensible way.

[Winthur]

I think we have exhausted the other two subjects, so I'm going to just touch on these:

Concerning viability - I know that you can technically succeed with a weak but very survivable character that whittles the boss down, or even a less survivable one that just goes in and dies repeatedly.

This entire time I am proposing characters who are self-sufficient and do not suffer from crippling clear speed or require you to go glass cannon in order to proceed. All of the items I am recommending that are guaranteeing your survivability or damage are either low-tier uniques, crafts / gambles / found rares (possibly upped) or magic items with good prefixes (+300+% Enhanced Damage etc.). Or low-tier runewords that any character can assemble. Considering there are speedrun playthroughs that go by on the lowest necessary amount of repeating areas and they still beat the entire game (all 3 difficulties) in like 6-7 hours, imagine any solid build played by a player who understands how much they can push the envelope facing off against Diablo, Ancients, Baal and all sorts of nasty uniques.
The solutions I'm proposing are very realistic for a solo self-found character who doesn't want to push himself to the limit. And if you're playing a caster of pretty much any type (including "melee casters" like Elemental Zealot or Lightning Fury Amazon), your gear dependency already shrinks.
I honestly think that a lot of players are too used to the really late game as something mandatory and then are utterly surprised when a WW barb wearing budget gear and whirling with the venerable upped Bonesnap ends up doing content safe and fast.
This is my preferred style of play because I enjoy playing a character who may have to retreat sometimes or keep a steady finger on reds / rejuvs and might have to think carefully about positioning, but proper implementation of these skills still makes them look like a god of war.

[Psyren]

I didn't meant to imply that your suggested builds were weak - just stating a general preference for my own. Though I will point out that the runes you need to "up" cheaper uniques are themselves not too common, e.g. Um/Ko/Lum/Pul etc. And upping that gear has costs too - the armor and damage values increase, but other stats like resists usually don't, plus upping means higher Str/Dex requirements which can hurt your build. Granted if you're a martial build that sort of thing is necessary to deal with, but it's worth noting.

As for being "god" - honestly I've never played a hell build that didn't need potions of some kind or that could just ignore gloams and whatnot. On even the most humdrum and monotonous of Baal runs I found wipes to be possible, to say nothing of harder content. That may have been on me not having bleeding edge though.