Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral? (Or Lawful Good?)

[Peelee]

Reiterating that a right not to be married is more important than a lawnmower, it still is your lawnmower and he stole it. When he did, he took the risk of you getting it back.

Yes, this is a very good representation of what an Evil character might say to justify their actions. Good job!

[Ironsmith]

Something to add to this whole lawnmower-wall thing... if it's a load-bearing part of his wall, then he likely didn't just steal your lawnmower. Taking into account the construction time alone, it's been months, at least, since he originally took your mower. That means you never bothered to go to court, can live without the mower, and probably don't really have much of a claim on it as property anymore... and if you did need a mower, you've probably already replaced it. What's more than likely happened now is that you've gone a long time without your mower, walked by this guy's house, and noticed a familiar piece of material. Guy's inside and could die? So's his family? Screw that, you've got a long-gone mower you want back. You jerk.

...

In other words, digging up old grudges to fit a petty need at some else's very significant detriment. Evil.

[D.One]

Nah.

I don't have currently-stolen load-bearing property. And the courts are Lawful.

Now, I have to leave for a while. You kids behave.

Don't know why we started talking about lawnmowers. Was Hylgia forced to marry one?

That said, go ahead and reinforce your headcannon that Hylgia is not Evil because she was wronged, despite the Flaming Letter-esque signs she gives she is Evil and was wronged (not mutually exclusive, you know). That's what headcannon is meant for: to rebuild only in our heads something of the original story that we disagree with.

[Fyraltari]

(10 years later:)

Kudzu: I didn't ask to be born, mom! *runs off with family fortune*

That is one precocious ten-year-old. Then again he is already tuhninh Undeh before turning 1 so he really is precocious.

Nor should they be. Corporate attorneys dealing with business law, state prosecutors in criminal law, criminal defense attorneys, and then divorce attorneys? They have many hats.
ETA:

I prefer their boot.

So, why don't we expand that view into other cases?

Guy steals your car; he'll starve if he can't sell it. You let him sell it or you're a murderer, then?

Never mind that a right to bodily autonomy is infinitely more important than a lawnmower and that bankrupting those neanderthals isn't really as serious as dropping a house on someone. Where does it end?

Those are dwarfs. Don't use Neanderthal as an insult they never did anything wrong to you.

Well, it's your car, it's your lawnmower, it's her body and right not to be married.

She doesn't have to care what it'll do to her clan - to the very clan that oppressed her or at least allowed it.

Yes she has. Since, you know, she's the one doing it. Her clan's failings do not excuse hers.

No, gravity did after you relocated an item that is very much yours and that shouldn't have been there by any rights in the first place.

"Your honor, I didn't murder that woman, I just lightly pushed her. That she fell 100 meters into the sea was not my oing but gravity's. I suggest your order gravity to be put under house arrest immediately."

Regardless, the other comparison is also inept, because the right not to be married is more important than a lawnmower.

That wasn't a comparison. A comparison would have been "It is just as bad as if she did it over a lawnmower."
That was an analogy: explain a your opinion on a principle by transposing it to another context and such keeping only what is germane to it. The point that Sgt_Dubie was making is that making someone who took something that belongs to you suffer when you alredy can get that something back without the suffering is evil. That is true for lawnmowers, right to celibacy and Xynhulpangs of XXVIIIth Mporknlu dynasty of the planet Looomrghhadu.

And if he had built a sturdier house or not used your lawnmower as construction material, he wouldn't be under the rubble, now would he?

"Your honor, when I saw the victim swimming up from a dive, I did held his head underwater but really if he had taken a longer breath before diving he wouldn't be dead, now would he? Surely this absolves me."

[Forum Explorer]

Inept comparison (aside from the wronging not being perceived by any measure, instead being very real).

The right includes living in the Dwarven Lands and, in order to see that right respected with certainty, she had to bankrupt her clan.

So it's more like:

You see that he's using your lawnmower as part of a load-bearing wall for his house (let's pretend this makes sense in engineering).

He and his family are in his house.

You remove the semi-load-bearing lawnmower and run away before the house collapses.

House goes down. Not your problem.

And it is your lawnmower.

And it's his own fault for using your lawnmower instead of some old pipes or whatever.

And that's 100% escalating theft to murder. Not only would literally every nation punish for this, but in all likelihood your neighbors or any survivors would seek to do so as well. Even random bystanders would.

And I think that's a big point in this. Just because someone has wronged you doesn't mean you're justified in doing anything back to them. At best, you're justified in taking whatever action needed (no needed doesn't mean expedient, easy, or quick) to correct the situation.

So you'd be justified in demanding your lawnmower back, even if it meant his house collapsing. But not immediately. It'd have to wait until after no one was inside, and even after they get a chance to get their stuff out of the house as well.

In Hilgya's case? She's justified in breaking off the marriage. She's justified in seeking the removal of her clan's power (as they are pretty Evil themselves), and if Ivan had ever tried to have sex with her, she'd be justified in using force to prevent that from happening.

And honestly, bankrupting the clan isn't a bad way to go about removing her clan from power. If that had been Hilgya's only act, I'd certainly think she's Chaotic Neutral. Her Evil comes from the rampant murder attempts/plots. There's even a good version of Bankrupting the Clan.

Good Version: She bankrupts the clan, but uses the money to support other innocents in the clan so they don't suffer from the fall of the evil relatives.

[Fish]

"He took my lawnmower, so I killed his whole family. Along with anybody else who happened to be in the building. Didn't check, really."

—totally not evil, per Weirdo

Riiiiight.

[Corneel]

Dear The_Weirdo,

The company I work for didn't pay my fees in time, making it difficult for me to provide for my family and house staff. Can I threaten to kill the daughter of their bookkeeper so she'll pay me in time?

Best regards,

Corneel

[hroþila]

At some point, we need to ask ourselves: would we engage e.g. Tarquin in a lengthy debate about ethics?

[GooeyChewie]

At some point, we need to ask ourselves: would we engage e.g. Tarquin in a lengthy debate about ethics?

On this forum? Probably.

[The MunchKING]

At some point, we need to ask ourselves: would we engage e.g. Tarquin in a lengthy debate about ethics?

If you were somewhere he couldn't "Win" by stabbing you or sending troops to round you up? Yeah people totally would.

[zimmerwald1915]

If you were somewhere he couldn't "Win" by stabbing you or sending troops to round you up?

For example, an online message board? I think the evidence speaks for itself.

[The_Weirdo]

At some point, we need to ask ourselves: would we engage e.g. Tarquin in a lengthy debate about ethics?

Now, now. How dare you call me Lawful? I never did anything to you!

Dear The_Weirdo,

The company I work for didn't pay my fees in time, making it difficult for me to provide for my family and house staff. Can I threaten to kill the daughter of their bookkeeper so she'll pay me in time?

Best regards,

Corneel

If you haven't been paying attention, I'd suggest taking a piece of work hostage and then double-crossing them. Morality is irrelevant in face of what the Thin Blue Line might do to you re: daughters, but you'd certainly not be arrested for tricking them the way I did the agency...

[The MunchKING]

For example, an online message board? I think the evidence speaks for itself.

That WAS the implication I was going for, yes.

[The_Weirdo]

That WAS the implication I was going for, yes.

Now, now. I'm not a tyrant.

[KorvinStarmast]

Morality is irrelevant in face of what the Thin Blue Line might do to you

I hope you are having fun, but you aren't making sense.

[The MunchKING]

Now, now. I'm not a tyrant.

You seem VERY willing to quash everyone else's freedoms in the name of yours and the characters you like.

[The_Weirdo]

You seem VERY willing to quash everyone else's freedoms in the name of yours and the characters you like.

Nah. Just the clans that started it.

To use Overwatch as a reference: think Junkrat, not Symmetra's bosses.

In short: Evil or not, Lawful I ain't (and I'm proud of it).

[Sgt_Dubie]

No, gravity did after you relocated an item that is very much yours and that shouldn't have been there by any rights in the first place.

I didn’t kill him. I just shot him. It was the massive blood loss caused by the bulletthat killed him...


Now let’s examine the part about her having the right to live in her Dwarven lands... no, she does not. Nations can and do exclude people from living in them all the time. Besides, even if she did have some weird right that allows her to settle In whatever place suits her fancy... did she accomplish this by bankrupting her clan for no other reason than revenge? I’d think that kind of act would make her even less welcome by the dwarves...

[The_Weirdo]

Now let’s examine the part about her having the right to live in her Dwarven lands... no, she does not. Nations can and do exclude people from living in them all the time.

For not wanting to marry someone?

And again: she needed to bankrupt them (they deserved it, anyways) in order to expedite her divorce.

[Peelee]

And again: she needed to bankrupt them (they deserved it, anyways) in order to expedite her divorce.

You keep confusing "need" with "want because it's easier."

Also, I can't help but not that you are very adamant about your very specific code. Close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to your belief, judgmentalness, lack of adaptability... that all sounds really, really Lawful to me.

[Keltest]

For not wanting to marry someone?

And again: she needed to bankrupt them (they deserved it, anyways) in order to expedite her divorce.

People don't have a right to expeditious paperwork.

[The_Weirdo]

You keep confusing "need" with "want because it's easier."

Also, I can't help but not that you are very adamant about your very specific code. Close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to your belief, judgmentalness, lack of adaptability... that all sounds really, really Lawful to me.

I'm Lawful about being Chaotic. Comes from an environment that is/was Chaotic about being Lawful.

People don't have a right to expeditious paperwork.

She always had a right not to be married to Ivan. Ergo, she has a right not to wait not to be married to Ivan.

[Jasdoif]

You keep confusing "need" with "want because it's easier."

I dunno...given that the two clans apparently had the means to force Hilgya into a marriage recognized by law in the first place, it's not that hard for me to believe they could trivially sustain that marriage in the face of legal proceedings if they so chose.

[The_Weirdo]

I dunno...given that the two clans apparently had the means to force Hilgya into a marriage recognized by law in the first place, it's not that hard for me to believe they could trivially sustain that marriage in the face of legal proceedings if they so chose.

The banana makes a valid point and I'm not hungry, so I won't eat it!

[Sgt_Dubie]

For not wanting to marry someone?

And again: she needed to bankrupt them (they deserved it, anyways) in order to expedite her divorce.

For not wanting to marry someone, for not having a red beard, for not filling out the right forms at the border crossing, for not buying a purple cowboy hat to wear on sundays... if your not willing to play by whatever rules the society you want to settle in makes, that society can exclude you. Deportation and exile are very real punishments for not playing the game.

[The_Weirdo]

For not wanting to marry someone, for not having a red beard, for not filling out the right forms at the border crossing, for not buying a purple cowboy hat to wear on sundays... if your not willing to play by whatever rules the society you want to settle in makes, that society can exclude you. Deportation and exile are very real punishments for not playing the game.

Revolutions and reigns of terror are also very real punishments for societies that went immoral or insane.

[Sgt_Dubie]

I'm Lawful about being Chaotic. Comes from an environment that is/was Chaotic about being Lawful.



She always had a right not to be married to Ivan. Ergo, she has a right not to wait not to be married to Ivan.

She had a right to not participate in the marriage. A right she excercised by walking away (after her Attempted murder). I don’t see how she has a right to speedy paperwork.

[The_Weirdo]

She had a right to not participate in the marriage. A right she excercised by walking away (after her Attempted murder). I don’t see how she has a right to speedy paperwork.

She shouldn't have to walk away.
She shouldn't have to have any paperwork done at all!
And this isn't speedy paperwork, it's not being married to someone.

[Sgt_Dubie]

I shouldn’t have to pay the parking ticket I received in the parking spot I pay for... I’ll just beat up every meter maid I see and rob all the parking meters in town... I mean why file the paperwork to contest it. I shouldn’t have the ticket in the first place after all

[The_Weirdo]

I shouldn’t have to pay the parking ticket I received in the parking spot I pay for... I’ll just beat up every meter maid I see and rob all the parking meters in town... I mean why file the paperwork to contest it. I shouldn’t have the ticket in the first place after all

Except in this case the meter maid, in order to set you up and make you pay for a ticket, pointed a crossbow at your head and told you to park on a no-parking area or she'd shoot...