WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

[Psyren]

I think there may be some argument for truncating some of the slog, but I kind of feel like just picking up a level 110 and immediately getting maximum artifact power through a 7 quest chain is akin to dousing your entire expansion in lighter-fluid. Theoretically, they should have 12 years worth of RPG content that one would consider a value add. Which begs the question: If WoW thinks their game is so fun, why do they keep offering (and indeed charging for) ways to skip it? Would you buy a level boost in Mass Effect to skip to the end of ME3?

I mean, you won't find me arguing that their gameplay is fun. But that's not an argument against catch-up mechanics either.

No, I wouldn't skip Mass Effect, because I do like the gameplay. But it's also not a perpetual experience that my friends would try to bring me back to every so often, and try to convince me to pay a subscription fee for. And without those mechanics I'm really not sure what the expectation would be from you - should I hop on the ilvl treadmill and rub my face in gravel? Download the app and start doing artifact research? Start gearing up for my first heroic? What sacrifice would you require of me so that you and the other elites can still feel good about your hard-earned pixels?

[Jera]

I think there may be some argument for truncating some of the slog, but I kind of feel like just picking up a level 110 and immediately getting maximum artifact power through a 7 quest chain is akin to dousing your entire expansion in lighter-fluid. Theoretically, they should have 12 years worth of RPG content that one would consider a value add. Which begs the question: If WoW thinks their game is so fun, why do they keep offering (and indeed charging for) ways to skip it? Would you buy a level boost in Mass Effect to skip to the end of ME3?

In my opinion, one of the main draws of the MMO genre is the sense of investment and accomplishment from having persevered at something. In light of that, I'd much rather they work on making level scaling a thing, and make mentoring a thing, so that these older sections of content can retain their relevance, and no longer be relegated to backfilling cheevos and transmogs.

The thing is the expansion is over, I downloaded the BoA pre-event patch today, presumably it goes live next week. Legion has been out for two years, and Blizzard(and I) assume that if you cared at all about any of the things you mentioned, you would have played sometime in the last 8 months since 7.3.5 dropped. People who are resubbing now aren't doing so to play Legion content, they're doing so to get ready to play BoA.

Anecdote from someone who bought a boost, I picked wow back up for Legion after quitting a month into Cataclysm, I had no interest at all in play Draenor content. During the intervening years my original account was lost, so I grabbed one of the free month/game codes from the Warcraft Movie and started a new account, leveled up a Paladin, but wanted my Druid and Priest back as well, When I bought Legion I boosted a Priest, now I could do what you suggest and spend 30+ hours rehashing 100 levels of content that I had literally just finished a week prior or spend 60 bucks and be good to go right then and there. Those 30 hours of my time is worth more than $60. Not having to spend 10 miserable hours in the Outlands is worth $60,


Comparing boosting a character to skipping to the end of ME3 is a false equivalency, because getting to max level in WoW does not end the game, it doesn't even stop you from going back and exploring the story of zones you skipped. I played through the entirety of Legion on that druid, I'm 11/11 H Antorus on that druid, do you know what I missed by boosting that toon? Not having to quest in Outlands or Draenor. I had and am having a lot of fun playing that druid. The only thing that frustrates me about it is that I've been running Firelands weekly for the last year and still haven't looted Farandels Seed Pouch.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, I think I might've been foolish leveling up my Rogue main normally while boosting other classes I want to play.....I think I should've just boosted my Rogue as well, but now its 106. barely worth doing so....

oh well I guess I'll get around to leveling my rogue to 110......eventually.....

[Resileaf]

My raid group has defeated Heroic Argus!
Thank you supercharged weapons!

[Psyren]

My raid group has defeated Heroic Argus!
Thank you supercharged weapons!

How dare you celebrate? You skipped all that investment and accomplishment! Go flog thyself!

[Resileaf]

How dare you celebrate? You skipped all that investment and accomplishment! Go flog thyself!

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my AWESOME MAGIC BIRD!

[The_Jackal]

How dare you celebrate? You skipped all that investment and accomplishment! Go flog thyself!

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my AWESOME MAGIC BIRD!

Yes, rewards are so much more fulfilling when you don't actually have to work for them! What we all really want is no gameplay, just a loot dispenser button that hands out cool 3D models for our characters to wear in our cartoon fantasy Barbie game!

[Resileaf]

Yes, rewards are so much more fulfilling when you don't actually have to work for them! What we all really want is no gameplay, just a loot dispenser button that hands out cool 3D models for our characters to wear in our cartoon fantasy Barbie game!

Please, just because we needed that boost to finally beat Argus (technically we were at Coven) doesn't mean that we didn't work for that kill.

[Psyren]

Please, just because we needed that boost to finally beat Argus (technically we were at Coven) doesn't mean that we didn't work for that kill.

When will you learn that The_Jackal is the final arbiter on all achievement and fun? You must forgo Blizzard's temptations of the flesh, clothe yourself in itchy burlap and eat nothing but flavorless gruel until you get your purples the right way. No matter when in the expansion your playgroup decided to stop being lazy slobs and grab those bootstraps.

[The_Jackal]

When will you learn that The_Jackal is the final arbiter on all achievement and fun? You must forgo Blizzard's temptations of the flesh, clothe yourself in itchy burlap and eat nothing but flavorless gruel until you get your purples the right way. No matter when in the expansion your playgroup decided to stop being lazy slobs and grab those bootstraps.

Well said.

In all seriousness, I've long advocated for eliminating the difficulty tiers and putting in a difficulty slider. If your gang wants to coast through the game and collect all the things because they finished the game how they wanted to, great! I just think it's kind of absurd to have this sliding scale where hard is hard until the developers arbitrarily decide to hand out participation trophies to everyone. Heck, just give away the Friendship Birb to everyone when the finish LFR. I mean, this has more or less the same effect.

I mean, what's the message here, exactly? You want the coolest stuff in WoW? Buy each upcoming WoW expansion, use the free-level up to hit the level cap ASAP, run World quests for a week or two to score all the handout catchup loot, then crowdsource a carry for the one-and-done achievements you'd miss out on before the next expansion. Then, when that expansion drops, cancel your sub, wait 2 years, and do the same thing when the new content is headed into the pipeline. Intervening raid tiers? Who needs to do that stuff? If there's something you really want out of them, go back and farm them when they're -10 levels and about 300 item levels below you.

So, sure, I'll accept it, I am an elitist. I want special things to stay special.

[The_Jackal]

In an abrupt segue, I decided to dust off my Hunter, never touched since the end of Warlords of Draenor, and holy balls did they screw this class up. I did the starter scenario, chose Marksmanship for my artifact, and discovered immediately that everything hits like a feather except for Aimed Shot, which is a 2 second channel. I guess what Blizzard's real class fantasy is that a class that can move and fire at the same time must be purged with fire.

I guess haste should help with that somewhat, but unlike mages which weight haste fairly high in their stat priority, hunters actually get nearly 50% better benefit from mastery, so stacking haste is, in all likelihood, a loss in performance. We'll see if I can get used to the extremely cumbersome rotation enough to cap her to 110.

[Resileaf]

Marksmanship very much is fully focused on critting. Until you're high level enough to crit often, you're not going to feel like you're doing any damage.

When you do start critting reliably, everything dies nearly instantly.

[The_Jackal]

Marksmanship very much is fully focused on critting. Until you're high level enough to crit often, you're not going to feel like you're doing any damage.

When you do start critting reliably, everything dies nearly instantly.

I'm looking at a guild-mate with a 967 ilvl, and he's got a crit chance of 33%. So 'crit reliably' is not something that's every going to happen.

[Resileaf]

I'm looking at a guild-mate with a 967 ilvl, and he's got a crit chance of 33%. So 'crit reliably' is not something that's every going to happen.

I mean, marksman has a lot of crit-boosting artifact nodes, so you'll definitely notice your crit rate boosting as you gear it.

Unrelatedly, I've done mage tower on every class and spec. After all that work, I've finally done it. I've won WoW, as far as I'm concerned.

[The_Jackal]

I mean, marksman has a lot of crit-boosting artifact nodes, so you'll definitely notice your crit rate boosting as you gear it.

I'll soldier on, as I'm sure that worst case, I can swap to Beastmaster in BFA, if Marks is still infuriating to me. But I'm not sure that 'doing big crits' is really important to me when standing still 2 seconds is painfully slow and awkward, in any kind of boss encounter context. I mean, I've got a fair amount of haste on my Frost mage, and even 1.7 seconds feels like an eternity of battle, and that's versus enemies that get slowed with every shot. Hunters need to eat a GCD to snare their targets for a paltry 6 seconds, so I'm not really feeling this is a fun spec to play, regardless of the size of the integers coming off the top of the mob.

Unrelatedly, I've done mage tower on every class and spec. After all that work, I've finally done it. I've won WoW, as far as I'm concerned.

Congratulations, that's a lot of work. Certainly work I'll never do, as I can't stand about 80% of the class/spec combinations the game offers. If I'm very, very lucky I'll get my Argussian Reach rep grind finished before BFA drops, then I can consider dumping some time cheevo hunting. But, to be frank, I find all of the artifact 'mogs to be impossibly gaudy and horrid, at least for my current toons who are close to capable of completing it, namely Arms Warrior and Frost Mage. The ghostblade daggers for the assassination rogue, on the other hand... delicious!

[Androgeus]

In all seriousness, I've long advocated for eliminating the difficulty tiers and putting in a difficulty slider..

I was confused by this when you brought it up previously. What’s this difficulty slider going to do that tiers don’t? The only thing I can figure is that it would affect non-instance content.

On Mage Tower, I really want to do the Ret Pally, but I’m a terrible player, it actually amazes me that I managed to do Arms and Feral.

[Resileaf]

Congratulations, that's a lot of work. Certainly work I'll never do, as I can't stand about 80% of the class/spec combinations the game offers. If I'm very, very lucky I'll get my Argussian Reach rep grind finished before BFA drops, then I can consider dumping some time cheevo hunting. But, to be frank, I find all of the artifact 'mogs to be impossibly gaudy and horrid, at least for my current toons who are close to capable of completing it, namely Arms Warrior and Frost Mage. The ghostblade daggers for the assassination rogue, on the other hand... delicious!

As far as I'm concerned, it's not that I want them (well, not all of them) for their looks. It's that the looks would not be possible to get forever. I'm all for that exclusive stuff.

[Sian]

Whereas I'm personally of the opinion that as long as the character doesn't look like someone who raided "lost and found and free" in the local charity store, I'm satisfied ...

I frankly couldn't care less about the exact color of a couple of pixels unless they're rainbow pimp

[The_Jackal]

Whereas I'm personally of the opinion that as long as the character doesn't look like someone who raided "lost and found and free" in the local charity store, I'm satisfied ...

I frankly couldn't care less about the exact color of a couple of pixels unless they're rainbow pimp

Yeah, I'm not going to undertake a bunch of content for a 'mog I'll never wear.

This ultimately feeds into the reason why I'd just assume Blizzard have a plan to wind up WoW and roll out a new fantasy RPG/MMO with a modern engine. World of Warcraft is trapped in aesthetic trap from their original design constraints, namely 'Low-Res Design'. When Weapons in the game were predominantly constrained by having a pitiful polygon-count, the over-exaggerated aesthetic made sense, but rather than reel in some of the design to suit the capabilities of their game engine and just make everything look better, they're still designing items as if they need to stand out on the Warcraft III battlefield.

I would LOVE to see what they could do with graphics like we see in Overwatch, leaving behind the giant shoulder orc-tard look that has been the rule for all WoW content since 2004. But I doubt we'll get to see it as long as WoW is staying in maintenance mode.

[Spore]

Marksmanship very much is fully focused on critting. Until you're high level enough to crit often, you're not going to feel like you're doing any damage.

When you do start critting reliably, everything dies nearly instantly.

I might be doing something different than you but I am entirely satisfied with my performance on my hunter, and he does have 880ish unenchanted gear. But this is on 110, not during leveling where I entirely enjoyed Beastmaster.

That is also one of the weaknesses of WoW imho. The levelling experience fun varies HEAVILY depending on your spec. I reckon you have almost as much 'fun' as the average Shadow Priest while levelling - as in: your big crits are larger than the average monster's health bar while Shadow's Void Form kicks in when the monsters are dead.

[Psyren]

I just think it's kind of absurd to have this sliding scale where hard is hard until the developers arbitrarily decide to hand out participation trophies to everyone.

But it's not "arbitrary." The trigger for it is blatantly obvious - they do it when the content is about to be rendered obsolete. And the reasons why they do it are similarly obvious - it demonstrates goodwill to groups like Resileaf's that bootstrapped most of the way there and just needed that last boost over the hump. It's also a very lightweight way of attracting back lapsed members. "Hey, our artifacts are maxed out, come try it!" is a clear value proposition to renew your sub before the expansion drops, which just might get you to preorder too.

I mean, what's the message here, exactly?

The message is that it's arithmetic and WoW is a business. Goodwill-focused moves like this will retain/return X of the less-hardcore players, while pissing off only Y grumpy snobs (NB: not you) enough that they cancel their subs in disgust. Clearly X > Y, or they wouldn't keep doing it, and that variance makes logical sense.

That is also one of the weaknesses of WoW imho. The levelling experience fun varies HEAVILY depending on your spec. I reckon you have almost as much 'fun' as the average Shadow Priest while levelling - as in: your big crits are larger than the average monster's health bar while Shadow's Void Form kicks in when the monsters are dead.

I agree that all dps specs (and tanking specs for that matter) should be equally fun to level in, even if that means some of them get wholly different rotations than they'd use in group content. I feel there are a bunch right now with an artifact-shaped hole that makes them feel disjointed at lower levels.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, I'm not going to undertake a bunch of content for a 'mog I'll never wear.

This ultimately feeds into the reason why I'd just assume Blizzard have a plan to wind up WoW and roll out a new fantasy RPG/MMO with a modern engine. World of Warcraft is trapped in aesthetic trap from their original design constraints, namely 'Low-Res Design'. When Weapons in the game were predominantly constrained by having a pitiful polygon-count, the over-exaggerated aesthetic made sense, but rather than reel in some of the design to suit the capabilities of their game engine and just make everything look better, they're still designing items as if they need to stand out on the Warcraft III battlefield.

I would LOVE to see what they could do with graphics like we see in Overwatch, leaving behind the giant shoulder orc-tard look that has been the rule for all WoW content since 2004. But I doubt we'll get to see it as long as WoW is staying in maintenance mode.

The problem with changing games is that... Well, people have been playing WoW for centuries now. What happens to their characters? Their loot? All the stuff they got throughout the years? Does that get transfered into WoW 2.0? Does the old game gets abandonned? Do the servers shut down? WoW has been going on for so long, people are going to riot at whatever happens to their game.
I mean yeah, I'd love to have a Warcraft game with the graphical prowess of FFXIV, but realistically, I don't know how a second WoW will work out if it's to exist alongside the first one.

[The_Jackal]

The problem with changing games is that... Well, people have been playing WoW for centuries now. What happens to their characters? Their loot? All the stuff they got throughout the years? Does that get transfered into WoW 2.0? Does the old game gets abandonned? Do the servers shut down? WoW has been going on for so long, people are going to riot at whatever happens to their game.
I mean yeah, I'd love to have a Warcraft game with the graphical prowess of FFXIV, but realistically, I don't know how a second WoW will work out if it's to exist alongside the first one.

Yes, I know all about sunk cost fallacy and loss aversion that keeps people from just dumping their characters, but I firmly believe that it's better to quit while you're ahead and leave people wanting more than continue to churn out progressively more flavorless pulp long after you're run out of ideas. WoW has already been struggling with repeated faction-regression hangovers (ie: how many times do you team up to save the universe before you decide to stop throwing crockery at each other), apocalypse fatigue and re-run stories, characters, and content, so I think the notion that the WoW story is past its shark-jumping moment is beyond dispute.

So the real question is, is Blizzard willing to undertake a market risk to build a new, great MMO of the future, or are they content to ride out the faded, if glorious, past, until its tattered and decrepit corpse completely disintegrates? I would choose the former, but to be fair, I'm not a ATVI shareholder. But if I were a shareholder, I would absolutely be recommending that Blizzard work on a next-generation multiplayer RPG, because right now Anthem and Destiny 2 are ripe for being shown how it's done.

But it's not "arbitrary." The trigger for it is blatantly obvious - they do it when the content is about to be rendered obsolete.

Yes, but the arbitrary part is how the content is being rendered obsolete at all. Why deprecate 2 years of content creation work? The only justification seems to be the belief that they can't sell a paid expansion pack without bundling it with 10 levels of meaningless increase to the level cap, which players will relentlessly grind through in a matter of a few days.

And the reasons why they do it are similarly obvious - it demonstrates goodwill to groups like Resileaf's that bootstrapped most of the way there and just needed that last boost over the hump.

But if you didn't pointlessly pad out the levels, there would be no need to push Resileaf's team over the hump in the first place. They could take their time progressing through that content tier at their own leisure.

It's also a very lightweight way of attracting back lapsed members. "Hey, our artifacts are maxed out, come try it!" is a clear value proposition to renew your sub before the expansion drops, which just might get you to preorder too.

It seems to me that's a very cynical and short-sighted approach to just manipulate your subscribers into temporary pump and dump transactions, as opposed to legitimately increasing the value premise of the game. I don't doubt it would work, much in the same way that padding prices in a department store so you can then market a sale works, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

The message is that it's arithmetic and WoW is a business. Goodwill-focused moves like this will retain/return X of the less-hardcore players, while pissing off only Y grumpy snobs (NB: not you) enough that they cancel their subs in disgust. Clearly X > Y, or they wouldn't keep doing it, and that variance makes logical sense.

"It's a business" is a terrible justification for any creative decision. "It's a business" can justify cutting the development team and content team in half, or reducing the quality or volume of content releases. "It's a business" is what justified turning Warlords of Draenor into a glorified scavenger hunt, and "It's a business" is (allegedly) why Destiny 2 released as such a unfinished content-desert. What makes progression games engrossing and rewarding is the sense of investment in the rewards you've acquired through struggle. That's why they're fun. If there is no struggle, the emotional payoff is missing. If you can't lose, winning doesn't mean anything. That's why I'm opposed to the "here, let's throw the power nozzle wide-open, so everyone can get a taste of being monty". Not because I'm a elitist (though I am), but because I want everyone to have the opportunity to feel that payoff of reaching the summit, without being tied to a artificial deadline.

I agree that all dps specs (and tanking specs for that matter) should be equally fun to level in, even if that means some of them get wholly different rotations than they'd use in group content. I feel there are a bunch right now with an artifact-shaped hole that makes them feel disjointed at lower levels.

I think this ties back to the issue that the game is fundamentally designed as a cooperative team game, yet they keep ladling on rewards for carrying out low-effort solo chores. The ability to change specs at will does blunt that problem somewhat, but at the cost of undermining the feeling that your talent and build choices aren't just a pair of pants you put on. It's a tough problem to solve, however, because you still want to offer something to do for when you're on but none of your friends are.

The other problem is, again, the level cap rubber-band problem, which is to say, in order to feed you more progression, we need to wave away your previous progress (previously in the form of class re-designs, now in the form of your Legendary weapons being taken away). Which is the other reason I'd just assume Blizzard stop raising the level cap, and focus on just adding more content.

[Kish]

Which is the other reason I'd just assume Blizzard stop raising the level cap, and focus on just adding more content.

If this is meant to express a preference rather than an assumption, it's "I'd just as soon."

[The_Jackal]

If this is meant to express a preference rather than an assumption, it's "I'd just as soon."

Oh, thanks! Noted.

[Psyren]

The problem with changing games is that... Well, people have been playing WoW for centuries now. What happens to their characters? Their loot? All the stuff they got throughout the years? Does that get transfered into WoW 2.0? Does the old game gets abandonned? Do the servers shut down? WoW has been going on for so long, people are going to riot at whatever happens to their game.
I mean yeah, I'd love to have a Warcraft game with the graphical prowess of FFXIV, but realistically, I don't know how a second WoW will work out if it's to exist alongside the first one.

Destiny 2's launch sales definitively proved that enough people are actually okay with abandoning all their obsolete toys for a sequel to make it a good idea. (Where they screwed up is the follow-through, but that's besides the point.)

What I liked was that they gave them something in exchange - the "accomplishments montage". That's really all they need, and not only is it cheap, it won't affect the balance of the new game at all.

Yes, but the arbitrary part is how the content is being rendered obsolete at all. Why deprecate 2 years of content creation work? The only justification seems to be the belief that they can't sell a paid expansion pack without bundling it with 10 levels of meaningless increase to the level cap, which players will relentlessly grind through in a matter of a few days.

This is actually a decent point for once. Guild Wars 2 has done this in fact - finding ways to sell expansions without changing the level cap. I'm not actually opposed to WoW doing the same.

But there's an opposite problem; if the ceiling never rises, you just have to clear one raid and you have the gear to beat them all. How does that square with all the "investment and accomplishment" you prize so much?

It seems to me that's a very cynical and short-sighted approach to just manipulate your subscribers into temporary pump and dump transactions, as opposed to legitimately increasing the value premise of the game.

Giving people a chance to experience content they paid for is not "manipulation." I appreciate the financial lingo though; I sense that our vocations might not be that dissimilar.

"It's a business" is a terrible justification for any creative decision.

Luckily, this isn't a creative decision, and not all decisions have to be.

As for your examples - you're wrong. WoD and D2 were bad because they were poorly designed, not because profit was a motive. All the good decisions they made, were with the exact same motive; it's unrelated.

[Resileaf]

Destiny 2's launch sales definitively proved that enough people are actually okay with abandoning all their obsolete toys for a sequel to make it a good idea. (Where they screwed up is the follow-through, but that's besides the point.)

What I liked was that they gave them something in exchange - the "accomplishments montage". That's really all they need, and not only is it cheap, it won't affect the balance of the new game at all.

That could work out, but let's not forget that Destiny is a comparatively young game, while WoW is nearly old enough to drink.
Still, BfA seems to promise to end the faction war forever, so maybe it is a good time to change games entirely afterwards.

[Kish]

It does? Not that I'm complaining if so, but I got the distinct impression that MoP made it explicit that the Alliance and the Horde will battle each other for as long as Azeroth exists because when the faction war actually ends they'll both collapse and the next raid boss to come along will eat the planet unopposed, or something like that.

[Resileaf]

It does? Not that I'm complaining if so, but I got the distinct impression that MoP made it explicit that the Alliance and the Horde will battle each other for as long as Azeroth exists because when the faction war actually ends they'll both collapse and the next raid boss to come along will eat the planet unopposed, or something like that.

It's something said by Blizz devs in interviews, iirc. They want to give a satisfying end to the faction war with BfA, they claim.
Also the idea that the faction war makes the Alliance and Horde stronger is dumb as hell.

[Kish]

Of course it is. That didn't stop them from saying it.

I don't play Telephone Game, but if someone actually shows me a quote of them saying they plan to end the faction war for good in Battle for Azeroth, I'll get on the "they're wrapping up the game entirely" train.