OOTS #1117 - The Discussion Thread

[Ikuryo]

Have we seen a gas-person attacked with a weapon that was known to be magical? V could cast Fly on Roy, for instance, so Roy could go after the vampire's gas form.

Comic 1005 panels 4 and 5, Roy swings a +5 magical sword through the mist a couple of times to no visible affect.

@Kish I did mention Gregs ability to fly out of range, and the fact that he wasn't bothering to do so because he wanted to taunt Roy. Hovering around within sword swing range was not at all a good idea and should have left him in really bad shape when he transformed back, not uninjured.

[Fyraltari]

And the Exach isn't alone. He has at least the Unnamed Vampiress for cohort, and they probably could kill a few people and raise them as wights (who are themselves a self-perpetuating infestation--prophecy, remember).

It took the Thorsaken days to learn Malack's vampirization accelerator, th others haven't been undead long enough to know it.

That brings me to a question I've been pondering off and on: was Malack's vampirism somehow different from Durkon's? He seems to expect Durkon to rise with much the same personality and continue their conversations (once released from thralldom, anyway), but Greg is a completely different person with access to Durkon's memories. Malack also seemed to consider himself a continuation of his living self (though he did mention that he had a different name). Could there be a difference between the souls of those vampires who rise over the normal three-day period and those raised immediately by Malack's spell? Or is it perhaps because Malack had long-since had time to absorb his host's memories, while Greg is still fighting with his host's soul? Perhaps the three-day period is when the vampiric soul absorbs the memories, or does something else happen to the soul during this time to change their alignment?

In addition to the other responses, 200 years is a long time. Malack may well have planned to keep the vampire controlled for a few years, giving the spirit plenty of time to put down Durkon. Or, on the other side of the spectrum, Matt have forgotten how long it takes to absorb all the memories and see into their personality. Or had just never had a cleric vamp friend and wouldn't expect the whole "help my good destroy the world" thing.

Plenty of possibilities, really.

Malack intended to free Durkon* as soon as they got back to Bleedingham.

My understanding of the situation is based on two headcannons:
1) The three-day waiting period is when the vampire normally absorbs all the memory of the host.
2) Malack never used the acceleration spell before.

From that I think it goes like that, as the vampire takes in more and more of the hosts memory, there personnality gets closer and closer to the host's. This can be seen in this strip where Lurkon uses, seemingly subconsciously, a turn of phrase lifted from Durkon's memory (panels 4 and 8) as real people tend to do. However their personamity remains vastly different because every memory asorbed is colored by the very worst one, which is why Greg is very different from Durkon.

So in the end the vampire end up being a twisted version of the host ad they have little reaso not to indentify with them since they have the exact same life-experience (with a shift in perspective, a more literal "that man is dead" than usual) and no one is there to claim these memories as rightfully there (the "ceasing to e a discrete consciousness" bit) and, given time, anyone who might object on the host's behalf dies.

Malack however might have not realized that this is supposed to happen during the three days period because it has been so goddam long since it happened to him and expected that Durkon* would raise as the finished product (with much of Durkon's personality, especially love for theological discussion) because that is how every single vampire he knew of raised. Also he wouldn't have known that Durkon* was going to have an agenda and expected him to go along for lack of anything better to do.

[SilverCacaobean]

About Malack, I think, given how much he cared about his spawn, he had romanticized the idea of being a vampire. He probably thought he would be improving Durkon with the Vampirization.

Malack however might have not realized that this is supposed to happen during the three days period because it has been so goddam long since it happened to him and expected that Durkon* would raise as the finished product (with much of Durkon's personality, especially love for theological discussion) because that is how every single vampire he knew of raised. Also he wouldn't have known that Durkon* was going to have an agenda and expected him to go along for lack of anything better to do.

That's a good point, however we don't know if he'd never seen a vampire raised prematurely before. He might have used his spell on his "children". On the other had, maybe he hadn't freed his "children" and that's why he was calling them that... If they were under his control, he wouldn't have noticed that their personalities are wrong. One more thing, I vaguely recall Greg claiming he needs about a week to absorb all memories, which is more than 3 days. But still good point. After 3 days of memories, Greg would be much closer to Durkon than he is now.

[factotum]

It took the Thorsaken days to learn Malack's vampirization accelerator, th others haven't been undead long enough to know it.

Er, wasn't he talking about wights, not vampires? They don't have the same requirement to spend 3 days in the grave to start with, AFAIK?

[Fyraltari]

That's a good point, however we don't know if he'd never seen a vampire raised prematurely before. He might have used his spell on his "children".

Uh. I would have sworn that Malack said his children were his host's brothers but all he actually says is that he drank their blood.
However, he also says that three days in the grave is "refreshing" but "sadly" they don't have time for it.

Er, wasn't he talking about wights, not vampires? They don't have the same requirement to spend 3 days in the grave to start with, AFAIK?

My bad.

[TheBeggarDwarf]

Thanks everyone. I didn't know the Giant had provided an answer. Now I can move on to my perpetual worrying about Belkar's fate.

[Peelee]

Malack intended to free Durkon* as soon as they got back to Bleedingham.

My understanding of the situation is based on two headcannons:
1) The three-day waiting period is when the vampire normally absorbs all the memory of the host.
2) Malack never used the acceleration spell before.

Eeep. I'd forgotten that bit.

Also, I like your headcanons on this.

[Reboot]

It took the Thorsaken days to learn Malack's vampirization accelerator, th others haven't been undead long enough to know it.

It took Durkula days to research it, from a magic item carrying it, rather than being taught it. The SRD just says they can then "share it with others". Hell, it's quite possible he's "given" it to Hel, and any Cleric of Hel with an appropriate level can now prepare/cast it. [By extension, via the Domain Agreement, even Minrah and Hilgya may be able to cast it. But they (a) wouldn't know that and (b) have no reason whatsoever to actually do so.]

1) The three-day waiting period is when the vampire normally absorbs all the memory of the host.

"Usually, the process takes a few months, but it's not a problem if you want to start your eternal dormancy early."

[Peelee]

"Usually, the process takes a few months, but it's not a problem if you want to start your eternal dormancy early."

I should really re-read the whole comic sometime. Keep forgetting things like this.

[factotum]

1) The three-day waiting period is when the vampire normally absorbs all the memory of the host.
2) Malack never used the acceleration spell before.

The only problem there is that I'm sure Durkula has had more than three days of "inside" time he could have used to absorb Durkon's memories by now?

To be honest, quite apart from word of author as to why Malack behaved as he did toward Durkula, I think the 200 year gap would be plenty enough to explain it. Think about it: you're not the same person that you were 20 years ago, but you have the memories of that person and can look back at their life. Malack might well be the same--he remembers being a shaman 200 years ago, but he believes that absorbing all his host's memories effectively turned him into the same person, and he expects the same of Durkula.

[Fyraltari]

Eeep. I'd forgotten that bit.

Also, I like your headcanons on this.

Thank you.

The only problem there is that I'm sure Durkula has had more than three days of "inside" time he could have used to absorb Durkon's memories by now?

Yeah but he is doing other things, regardless of "speed of thought = near instantaneous" shenanigans it'd be done faster if that was all he was doing.

To be honest, quite apart from word of author as to why Malack behaved as he did toward Durkula, I think the 200 year gap would be plenty enough to explain it. Think about it: you're not the same person that you were 20 years ago, but you have the memories of that person and can look back at their life. Malack might well be the same--he remembers being a shaman 200 years ago, but he believes that absorbing all his host's memories effectively turned him into the same person, and he expects the same of Durkula.

Yes that was what I was getting at, I just thought he had reasons to assume it'd be faster than it is.

It took Durkula days to research it, from a magic item carrying it, rather than being taught it. The SRD just says they can then "share it with others". Hell, it's quite possible he's "given" it to Hel, and any Cleric of Hel with an appropriate level can now prepare/cast it. [By extension, via the Domain Agreement, even Minrah and Hilgya may be able to cast it. But they (a) wouldn't know that and (b) have no reason whatsoever to actually do so.]

Oh. So it only takes the Order missing one vampire spellcaster and the Dwarven Lands my have a real vampire infestation to deal with... Death and destruction to them all indeed.

"Usually, the process takes a few months, but it's not a problem if you want to start your eternal dormancy early."

Oh well, it was a nice theory. I still believe that given time the Low Priest of Hel would look more like Durkon than he does now, on a superficial level at least, which is all Malack cared about anyway.

[lcavalheiro]

Hmmm, I like Ponchella as the nickname for the lady vampire. (Thrall?Spawn?) It sounds like she's a star for either an Italian or a Spanish opera company. Her aria sanguina has the crowds going faint with every performance. (Not sure if I spelled that correctly in Italian: the idea was to make a Latinish sounding term for blood ... )

Well, Ponchella sounds very similar to Vampirella, a comic book vampire super heroine. She couldn't be a spawn since she can cast at least 5th-level spells, denoting her character level is higher than 5. She doesn't look like enthralled by Greg because she invited him to something that looks like a date and then shunned him because his host needs to bathe more and have offensive facial hair (Belkster's words), and may be the one holding down Roy's cleavage (hehehe).

And about your bleed air (aria sanguina in your language, I guess), I suppose you'd say aria sanguigna, second word meaning "bloody".

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah. One spellcaster who uses Create Undead to make wights (basically, do what Tsukiko did, but more active in recruiting). Ghouls could work too, I guess.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It took Durkula days to research it, from a magic item carrying it, rather than being taught it. The SRD just says they can then "share it with others". Hell, it's quite possible he's "given" it to Hel, and any Cleric of Hel with an appropriate level can now prepare/cast it. [By extension, via the Domain Agreement, even Minrah and Hilgya may be able to cast it. But they (a) wouldn't know that and (b) have no reason whatsoever to actually do so.

Would it also be plausible/within the rules for learning the accelerator spell to work like Malack’s Mass Death Ward spell that took Durkon some time to research? Obviously not several days, but still some time.

[factotum]

Would it also be plausible/within the rules for learning the accelerator spell to work like Malack’s Mass Death Ward spell that took Durkon some time to research? Obviously not several days, but still some time.

I don't think so. What Durkon was doing was researching an entirely new spell with Malack's assistance--he wasn't learning a pre-existing spell from Malack. The "instant vampire, just add magic" spell is a pre-existing spell so it shouldn't take any longer to learn it than any other spell would.

[The_Weirdo]

The Dark Lady of the Poncho is a free spirit!

Don't try to cage her!

Do I look like the caging type?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think so. What Durkon was doing was researching an entirely new spell with Malack's assistance--he wasn't learning a pre-existing spell from Malack. The "instant vampire, just add magic" spell is a pre-existing spell so it shouldn't take any longer to learn it than any other spell would.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for clarifying!

[Hardcore]

Does V's utterance "Fortunately for you..." look correct to you?

[Kish]

Does V's utterance "Fortunately for you..." look correct to you?

What are you getting at? It's sarcastic, so it's incorrect in that it (deliberately) states the opposite of the truth, but it doesn't have a grammar or spelling problem.

[Hardcore]

What are you getting at? It's sarcastic, so it's incorrect in that it (deliberately) states the opposite of the truth, but it doesn't have a grammar or spelling problem.

Thank you. I guess it would have helped me if V had showed a grin of satisfaction once the gamer hit.

[Rockphed]

Thank you. I guess it would have helped me if V had showed a grin of satisfaction once the gamer hit.

Of the order, Roy and V have always been the straight men, Durkon has swung both ways, and Roy Haley, Elan, and Belkar are generally the comics. As such, V delivering a line in perfect deadpan is completely expected.

[The MunchKING]

Of the order, Roy and V have always been the straight men, Durkon has swung both ways, and Roy, Elan, and Belkar are generally the comics. As such, V delivering a line in perfect deadpan is completely expected.

Also she's eating 5d8 damage. Even with saves that's going to hurt a bit.

[rferries]

Also she's eating 5d8 damage. Even with saves that's going to hurt a bit.

Assuming s/he's still nonlawful (word of god last said she was true neutral), s/he'd only take 1/2th of that. And it's quite possible that s/he'd make the Will save too, for only 1/4th (average of 6 damage).

[Liquor Box]

Is Blackwing chaotic?

He seems to be the only person/creature within the chaotic hammer not to suffer some ill-effect from it. And if he was susceptible to it, why even enter the chamber with V, why not hang back with the others?

[zimmerwald1915]

Is Blackwing chaotic?

He seems to be the only person/creature within the chaotic hammer not to suffer some ill-effect from it. And if he was susceptible to it, why even enter the chamber with V, why not hang back with the others?

Blackwing has Spell Resistance.

[Liquor Box]

Blackwing has Spell Resistance.

Ah, well that would explain the first part (why he wasn't damaged). But unless the spell resistance was high enough that he had no chance of being damaged (even if he rolled a 1), it doesn't answer the second - why risk it if there was a chance he would take the hit?

[Keltest]

Ah, well that would explain the first part (why he wasn't damaged). But unless the spell resistance was high enough that he had no chance of being damaged (even if he rolled a 1), it doesn't answer the second - why risk it if there was a chance he would take the hit?

Because V flying in without his familiar (as opposed to Blackwing flying in without V) would indicate that V was anticipating an attack which would harm Blackwing. 6 Hp isn't nothing to a raven familiar, but it isn't exactly fatal damage either.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ah, well that would explain the first part (why he wasn't damaged). But unless the spell resistance was high enough that he had no chance of being damaged (even if he rolled a 1), it doesn't answer the second - why risk it if there was a chance he would take the hit?

Spell Resistance presents itself as a DC against which a caster must roll a caster level check. Familiars' SR keys off their masters' level; Blackwing's is 21. If Hilgya is level 13, she has a 12/20 chance of penetrating it. Better than even, but not by much. And as Keltest points out, Blackwing's has the HP to survive the damage even if Hilgya's spell gets through. Furthermore, he is protected by all the same wards as Vaarsuvius, pretty much negating the possibility of the spawn being able to capitalize on that damage.

We're well within the realm of "acceptable risks" here.

[eilandesq]

I'm wondering if Roy has accounted for the risk of The Evil Trio yanking V. away again in coming up with this plan. V. is completely invulnerable in that state, and Durkula has no idea what is going on. If they keep attacking V. while V.'s soul is elsewhere, that would literally make V. the perfect tank until they wise up.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Spell Resistance presents itself as a DC against which a caster must roll a caster level check. Familiars' SR keys off their masters' level; Blackwing's is 21. If Hilgya is level 13, she has a 12/20 chance of penetrating it. Better than even, but not by much. And as Keltest points out, Blackwing's has the HP to survive the damage even if Hilgya's spell gets through. Furthermore, he is protected by all the same wards as Vaarsuvius, pretty much negating the possibility of the spawn being able to capitalize on that damage.

We're well within the realm of "acceptable risks" here.

You forgot the step where if the SR fails, Blackwing still gets the WILL Save. Also, black spell damage marks aren't going to show up well against the black feathers of a raven.