OOTS #1117 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

Vampires are Evil at creation, but afterwards can eventually be any alignment (although anything north of Neutral will be really hard to sustain).

And V took maybe 5 points of damage. Not an issue.

[Reboot]

I have not read all the pages on this, but I thought Vampires were Chaotic Evil, and thus would not worry about Chaos Hammer.

In 3.5, they're Evil, but can be any of L/N/C on the other axis. So, since Durkon was LG, Durkula is LE - he stays Lawful.

[jokem]

In 3.5, they're Evil, but can be any of L/N/C on the other axis. So, since Durkon was LG, Durkula is LE - he stays Lawful.

Got it. And since his Dwarven brethren were Lawful before they were converted, they are now LE and vulnerable to Chaos Hammer.
(Some may have not been Lawful, after all Thor is a CG in 3.5, right, but apparently like Kord, accepts any good alignment)

[Snails]

Has not Vaarsuvius already told Roy that her soul was taken precisely to make sure Roy destroyed Girard's Gate? How can any plausible case be made that the IFCC is at all interested in saving the world, given that information?

Speculation: The IFCC have a plan, but it requires a Gate not be seized by Xykon. Thus they considered Roy destroying Girard's Gate a necessary tactical choice.

The most plausible version of that plan is that is that IFCC thinks they can seize a Gate themselves. Of course, that speculation has the weakness that we do not know of any substantial resources on hand to accomplish such.

Clearly they think they can pay back Tiamat in some fashion. Of course, maybe that was just a ruse -- the payment of the death of upteen Good dragons is a side effect of world destruction, and Tiamat will be disappointed by a payment that involves upteen more Evil dragons biting the dust, too.

Occam's Razor suggests that the IFCC is just contractors working for Hel. While a simple and adequate explanation, I find it very unsatisfying.

[Reboot]

Occam's Razor suggests that the IFCC is just contractors working for Hel. While a simple and adequate explanation, I find it very unsatisfying.

Nah. Hel & Durkula are Book 6 villains, like Tarquin & co were Book 5. IFCC have been lurking around since before Hel was a thing, since book 3 or so. They're Book 7 fodder for sure.

[Ruck]

As their goals align with OoTS in one particular -- the world is not destroyed -- pulling V out will likely be delayed until later in this book. The question is, how upset would they be if Xykon wins and gets control of the gate?

Ooh, that's interesting. I wonder if they use one pull not to screw up a battle, but to give V an update about happenings elsewhere in the world and a rundown on what the Order needs to do? Xykon controlling the gate would be a good example, although I don't know if that will happen. (Sort of like how Sabine gave V a rundown on the Vector Legion, except this time as the IFCC's intention rather than as a side effect.)

By RAW, there is absolutely nothing Durkon can do to become free, except wait for someone else to destroy the vampire.

I doubt that Durkon's contribution to Greg's fall will involve any such shenanigans, either, since the foreshadowing suggests he will instead exploit Greg's inability to connect memories together.

GW

This is what I'm really excited for, vis-a-vis Hilgya. Both which memories Durkula will actually see and how badly he will misinterpret them. (Or hell, maybe he just gets grossed out enough by all that biological intercourse to screw something up.)

[skim172]

When the situation gets serious, the Order starts taking things seriously. Why is this such a surprise, HPoH?

I've been thinking about that. Because Greg seems genuinely surprised that the Order is employing any sort of strategy. He fully expected the Order to "just rush in" - but Durkon has plenty of memories of Roy getting his commander cap on. Greg should, theoretically, have complete knowledge of the Order's tactical approaches - but he doesn't. Somehow, Greg has gotten completely the wrong end of the stick (btw, that pun was entirely accidental, but I'm quite proud of it now).

Here's my thinking. Durkon's quote in #1116 seems to strongly imply he's got something planned. Durkon can't actively hide anything from Greg, or directly coerce Greg to do anything. But, maybe he could mislead Greg, encourage certain lines of thinking, nudge him away from others. Greg can force Durkon to show him a memory, but Greg won't if Greg doesn't realize something's missing. Durkon has shown that he can - to a limited extent - choose what memories to display. I really think #963 is significant - Durkon realizes that the memories that he comes up with have thematic connections, while Greg doesn't. Perhaps what Durkon is realizing there is that with a bit of mental discipline, he can navigate those connections and influence which memories are pulled up on-screen when Greg dials up the DVR.

And so, when Greg tells Durkon, "Show me some memories of the Order going into battle", Durkon pulls up memories of Roy recklessly charging into battle and the Order screwing up every semblance of a plan. He concentrates on memories about the Order rushing willy-nilly into danger (and let's face it, he's got plenty to choose from), until Greg is satisfied he's seen enough. Greg's already got a low opinion of the Order; such memories would serve to reinforce those evaluations. It's the version of the Order that Greg expects to see.

And if Durkon has been working on setting Greg up for a climactic battle where he's got all the wrong expectations, that could explain Durkon's quote in #1116 - "It's definitely time for the big fight scene". It's what Durkon's been waiting for.


I also feel it's a bit odd that Greg would care about getting a big evil throne to sit on as Roy approaches. Greg's not been the type for excessive grandstanding before. Why is it so important now that he gets a throne like Xykon's? What if Durkon has been feeding Greg memories of Roy fighting Xykon - the Blood Oath, the one-on-one duels, etc. - thus painting a portrait of Roy as an obsessive with a personal vendetta and manic fixation on Xykon. And he'll completely lose it when Xykon is mentioned. Their two fights against Xykon have both featured Roy rashly charging into the fray.

Perhaps Greg thinks that recreating that image of Xykon on his throne - just like that first battle back in Dorukan's dungeon - might really get to Roy, make him more emotional and less stable. A psychological tool to twist Roy's nerves.

In which case, Greg will soon discover the follies of confirmation bias.




Alternatively: It is I who will soon discover the follies of confirmation bias, having cherry-picked a few minor details from all over, in completely disconnected plotlines, and shoved them clumsily into my moronic unfounded pet theory.

[Goblin_Priest]

To people shocked that Durkon* would expect Roy to just rush in without a plan, that's exactly what he was going to do.

[Keltest]

To people shocked that Durkon* would expect Roy to just rush in without a plan, that's exactly what he was going to do.

In fairness to Roy, it wasn't that he was planning on just rushing it so much as he had little to base a battle plan off of. V's divination skills have not been demonstrated to be especially high.

[Kareasint]

In fairness to Roy, it wasn't that he was planning on just rushing it so much as he had little to base a battle plan off of. V's divination skills have not been demonstrated to be especially high.

And given that V was expecting to fight vampires today, he may not have even memorized any. Running into Hilgya saved the Order from a beating.

[TRH]

Speculation: The IFCC have a plan, but it requires a Gate not be seized by Xykon. Thus they considered Roy destroying Girard's Gate a necessary tactical choice.

The most plausible version of that plan is that is that IFCC thinks they can seize a Gate themselves. Of course, that speculation has the weakness that we do not know of any substantial resources on hand to accomplish such.

Clearly they think they can pay back Tiamat in some fashion. Of course, maybe that was just a ruse -- the payment of the death of upteen Good dragons is a side effect of world destruction, and Tiamat will be disappointed by a payment that involves upteen more Evil dragons biting the dust, too.

Occam's Razor suggests that the IFCC is just contractors working for Hel. While a simple and adequate explanation, I find it very unsatisfying.

They also told Tiamat that it was part of a plan to overthrow the gods of Good...which would actually describe Hel's plan pretty well, too.

Eh. I mean, it actually is an acceptable explanation for the tiny, tiny scraps we've been given, the simple fact of their extreme stinginess with information suggests that there's still more to it than that. Certainly, Hel doesn't seem to be acting like she has other allies besides Thrym.

Also, they told Vaarsuvius that "we don't have to lie to you when we can get what we want by playing it straight," which is an obvious deviation from "we're not lying to you because we can get what we want by playing it straight". As such, I'm waiting for at least one significant falsehood from them regarding the deal.

[Kish]

Twenty gold says the IFCC's role in the plot goes beyond Hel's.

[KorvinStarmast]

Twenty gold says the IFCC's role in the plot goes beyond Hel's.

Not going to bet against that.

[Rockphed]

Twenty gold says the IFCC's role in the plot goes beyond Hel's.

Considering that the two spokesgods at the godsmoot were Loki and Hel? Loki is very much Chaotic evil, but he likes watching the humans and everything dance to his whims. Hel, on the other hand, despises mortals and only desires power. While I get the feeling that Thor and Loki fight often, I'm pretty sure that they fight as much because of their similarities as because of their differences.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The spokesgods were Loki and Heimdall. Hel crashed the party, remember?

[F.Harr]

Yay Roy! Way to fight with your inteligence score!

:D

That would explain why he can still get critters out of his bag.

[Sloanzilla]

Hey, does that mean Law is represented by shades of gray?

50 or so of them

[SilverCacaobean]

They also told Tiamat that it was part of a plan to overthrow the gods of Good...which would actually describe Hel's plan pretty well, too.

They said the fact that their scheme will bring down the gods of Good was technically true. Seems like there's much more to it. I wouldn't bet against Kish.

[majesticmoose]

Also, not to start another alignment debate, but do we know for sure that Blackwing is Neutral? Or are we just assuming that because V is? Because honestly, Blackwing being Chaotic does not seem in the slightest bit unbelievable to me if he isn't bound to V's alignment somehow.

It's not mostly about V's alignment; animals are always Neutral, and although making one into a familiar changes its type to "magical beast" and increases its intelligence (among other things), it doesn't change the animal's alignment. Presumably familiars are about as likely to change alignment sometime after that as any other free-willed intelligent creature, i.e. not very likely. Having a master of different alignment might influence them some, but that doesn't apply here.

[hroþila]

They said the fact that their scheme will bring down the gods of Good was technically true. Seems like there's much more to it. I wouldn't bet against Kish.

I think they intend to bring down all the gods. Perhaps they intend to hijack Redcloak's Plan, but instead of waving the Snarl around they actually mean to use it against the gods or something like that.

[Quartz]

Speculation: The IFCC have a plan, but it requires a Gate not be seized by Xykon. Thus they considered Roy destroying Girard's Gate a necessary tactical choice.

The most plausible version of that plan is that is that IFCC thinks they can seize a Gate themselves.

They've previously said that they just want the senseless slaughter to continue. Of course, they could have been lying.

[Lord Torath]

The IFCC also said they were going to get their pawns into position (panels 9-10). They've now lost all their pawns. Of those listed, only Hilgya and Sabine are still alive (huh - only the male members of the OG LG died), and Hilgya's no longer their pawn. Okay, I take that back. Vaarsuvius is now one of their pawns, and through him, the rest of the Order. And Hilgya, I guess, if she decides to stick around and be influenced by anything the IFCC lets "slip" to V. The IFCC now just needs to be more subtle in directing their pawns. I should stop before I give myself a migraine.

Edit: I didn't mean to suggest that Sabine is no longer one of their pawns. I've seen nothing suggesting she's not still loyal to the IFCC.

[zimmerwald1915]

They've previously said that they just want the senseless slaughter to continue. Of course, they could have been lying.

They were certainly lying somewhere, because this stated objective contradicts their other stated objective: to unify all the fiends under their rule and put a stop to the "destructive, unnecessary" Blood War. Presumably they'd then turn the legions of Hell, hordes of the Abyss, and brigades of Hades loose on the multiverse, but that conflict couldn't possibly last forever. In fact it would probably be quite short, cosmologically speaking.

"We just want to stir **** up" has never struck me as the Directors' true motivation. They have an endgame. It just hasn't been revealed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wouldn't bet against Kish.

Sage words, no matter the context.

GW

[Keltest]

They were certainly lying somewhere, because this stated objective contradicts their other stated objective: to unify all the fiends under their rule and put a stop to the "destructive, unnecessary" Blood War. Presumably they'd then turn the legions of Hell, hordes of the Abyss, and brigades of Hades loose on the multiverse, but that conflict couldn't possibly last forever. In fact it would probably be quite short, cosmologically speaking.

"We just want to stir **** up" has never struck me as the Directors' true motivation. They have an endgame. It just hasn't been revealed.

I'm sure they have no problems at all with other people having pointless unnecessary conflicts. Its just the Blood War that they don't want, because its a whole bunch of "their" resources being wasted.

[Shining Wrath]

That strikes me as rather tautological. "If somebody could convince Roy to do it, he would seriously consider doing it." sort of thing.

No, it's a description of an argument that might persuade Roy - "If you do X, all the souls are destroyed. If you do Y, your soul is lost, but the other souls are saved".

Has not Vaarsuvius already told Roy that her soul was taken precisely to make sure Roy destroyed Girard's Gate? How can any plausible case be made that the IFCC is at all interested in saving the world, given that information?

They were certainly lying somewhere, because this stated objective contradicts their other stated objective: to unify all the fiends under their rule and put a stop to the "destructive, unnecessary" Blood War. Presumably they'd then turn the legions of Hell, hordes of the Abyss, and brigades of Hades loose on the multiverse, but that conflict couldn't possibly last forever. In fact it would probably be quite short, cosmologically speaking.

"We just want to stir **** up" has never struck me as the Directors' true motivation. They have an endgame. It just hasn't been revealed.

That the plans of the IFCC are advanced by the destruction of a single gate does not mean that their plans are advanced by the destruction of the world. Since their plans are doubtless fiendishly clever (by definition!), devious, and downright evil (again, by definition), it's probably hard for us to guess exactly what does, and does not, advance their goals. Other than weakening Good.

Roy being one of the most powerful Good creatures on the planet right now, subverting him to their cause would be a major plus - if they can find a moral lever long enough and a place to stand, if you'll pardon me going all Archimedean on this situation.

If I have to guess what the IFCC is up to, it's a form of Ragnarok or the battle scene from Paradise Lost or a reverse of the armies of Valinor storming Angbad at the end of the Silmarillion - they want the combined forces of evil to conquer all the other planes, including the Prime Material. How they get there I don't know, but I don't think destroying the current Prime Material helps.

[zimmerwald1915]

That the plans of the IFCC are advanced by the destruction of a single gate does not mean that their plans are advanced by the destruction of the world.

Sure, but good luck convincing Roy of that, given the information he has and his own biases and worldview. Any new information given to him by fiends he would surely dismiss as self-serving and untrustworthy.

Call it a hunch, but I suspect he'd be less apt to subversion than Vaarsuvius.

[Snails]

Twenty gold says the IFCC's role in the plot goes beyond Hel's.

I feel it in my bones that you are right.

That does not deny the possibility that Hel's thinks they are working for her, BTW, while the scope of their ambition is quite different.

[TRH]

They said the fact that their scheme will bring down the gods of Good was technically true. Seems like there's much more to it. I wouldn't bet against Kish.

I hope it's clear that I wouldn't either. Using the Snarl for Pantheocide seems more up their alley, among other potential ideas.

[TRH]

I feel it in my bones that you are right.

That does not deny the possibility that Hel's thinks they are working for her, BTW, while the scope of their ambition is quite different.

As I said before, we've seen her deliberations, and she doesn't come across like she has other allies besides Thrym to work with. If she thought the fiends were working for her, then you'd expect her to be yelling at them to pull their weight, given her personality.