The Age of Barbarians: A Guide for post-Mordenkainen's Barbarians

[Protato]

I had forgotten to add the Human variants from Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron but it's been updated now, I hope my rankings make sense.

[El_Jairo]

I especially registered to thank you for making this guide.

I'm coming back to the DnD mechanics and this looks very extensive, thought through and I well organised.

I haven't played any combat yet because my first session was half, due to RL. But I'm looking forward to it.

Our DM said that the campaign will be not so much combat, we all like to RP a lot and don't want to rely too much on the mechanical side of things. He did assure us that the combat we will see, will be quite hefty, so I am prepared for some real challenges.

So I was just wondering if Path of the Berserker Subclass is really solid? And extra attack during Frenzy Rage is of course very tempting. More chances to split an opponent in half is always welcome. Yet I feel it needs to be part of a crit fishing build as with the downside of exhaustion limits your character impact quite hefty on all other interactions. Disadvantage on all ability check, that means also all skill checks, right?

On the other hand my Half-Orc barbarian is a character that survived two systems (from 4e to homebrew based of Superheroes system). He is a Revenant Half-Orc (he died in 4e but I couldn't let him go). So I feel naturally inclined to pick either Path of the Ancestors Guardian or Zealot. Both give him the connection with death, so I like that very much.
My question is if he will be sufficient as damage dealer because the other party members are: Bard, Cleric and Warforged Gunslinger. We are playing the current Eberron Adventure yes, so please no spoilers ;-)

I have no idea about 5e so I'm currently sitting on the standard Ability block + Racial bonus : 17 13 15 8 12 10 with a mixture of Outlander background with Haunted personality traits, which fit his background very well, after traveling into his third world now.
Skill Profs: Perception, Intimidate, Animal Handling, Athletics and Survival.

I would opt for Path of the Ancestral Guardian as I am the main melee char I reckon it would be beneficial if I can draw aggro and protect the more squishy party member. I'm only afraid it my damage output will be enough, so I am considering the 3 lvl dip into Fighter to gain more dmg output.

[GlenSmash!]

I especially registered to thank you for making this guide.

I'm coming back to the DnD mechanics and this looks very extensive, thought through and I well organised.

I haven't played any combat yet because my first session was half, due to RL. But I'm looking forward to it.

Our DM said that the campaign will be not so much combat, we all like to RP a lot and don't want to rely too much on the mechanical side of things. He did assure us that the combat we will see, will be quite hefty, so I am prepared for some real challenges.

So I was just wondering if Path of the Berserker Subclass is really solid? And extra attack during Frenzy Rage is of course very tempting. More chances to split an opponent in half is always welcome. Yet I feel it needs to be part of a crit fishing build as with the downside of exhaustion limits your character impact quite hefty on all other interactions. Disadvantage on all ability check, that means also all skill checks, right?

Yes (technically there are no skill checks in 5e just ability checks where skill proficiency applies). It also applies to Initiative which is a Dexterity check.

Frenzy is really an ability you use once per long rest. Maybe twice on a really bad day, but the next day you won't want to use it at all.

I like the Berserker, but it has a serious drawback, and it helps to go in knowing about it.

On the other hand my Half-Orc barbarian is a character that survived two systems (from 4e to homebrew based of Superheroes system). He is a Revenant Half-Orc (he died in 4e but I couldn't let him go). So I feel naturally inclined to pick either Path of the Ancestors Guardian or Zealot. Both give him the connection with death, so I like that very much.
My question is if he will be sufficient as damage dealer because the other party members are: Bard, Cleric and Warforged Gunslinger. We are playing the current Eberron Adventure yes, so please no spoilers ;-)

Zealot will do more damage that Ancestral Guardians, While Ancestral Guardians is great at protecting one party member.

I have no idea about 5e so I'm currently sitting on the standard Ability block + Racial bonus : 17 13 15 8 12 10 with a mixture of Outlander background with Haunted personality traits, which fit his background very well, after traveling into his third world now.
Skill Profs: Perception, Intimidate, Animal Handling, Athletics and Survival.

Odd scores do you absolutely no good. 17, 14, 14, 8, 12, 10 would get you the same Hitpoints, but bump your AC by one. However with Point buy and Half-orc racials you can get 16, 14, 16, 8, 12, 8 which is a much better start.

I would opt for Path of the Ancestral Guardian as I am the main melee char I reckon it would be beneficial if I can draw aggro and protect the more squishy party member. I'm only afraid it my damage output will be enough, so I am considering the 3 lvl dip into Fighter to gain more dmg output.

If you do go this route, remember not to multiclass until after level 5. You do not want to delay extra attack. But I would strongly consider going to 6 first to get SPIRIT SHIELD.

[R.Shackleford]

There seems to be a lot missing from this guide due to a very narrow mindset on what the barbarian can and can't do.

Actor is a great feat on a Barbarian. It shores up a weakness of the barbarian class, out of combat utility. The barbarian class doesn't need more combat support to face tank, so being a Face Tank is actually a fun option.

Even with a +1 or +2 cha, that advantage on rolls will be awesome and go a long way. Dump Int not cha.

Actor is one of the best feats in the game, sadly so many people (inclusing the devs) have direct combat as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd most important part of the game.

Anyways...

Barbarian makes for a great support class. Especially now that prodigy is a thing. Prodigy (Athletics) and reckless attack means you can have a lower strength and still be able to shove/grapple or hit with a weapon attack. Yeah, you aren't a damage dealer but you have a lot of other good options. This means that you can focus on dex and con. Actually, you don't need to hit a creature to have your rage extended, you just need to attack. So anyways... Dex/Con Wolf Totem build is a great support barbarian as prodigy lets you grapple really well even with low strength. Or you can go the protector as an eagle totem barbarian and dash around in order to shive creatures to the ground (or grapple them and run faaaar away... Again prodigy is amazing for this).

Also, a Storm Herald grappler build could be a good support build. Boost Con and put things in time out. Actually... The Nanny would be a good build name for this. Using a British accent to tell things they're in time out would be hilarious.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Unarmored Defense is a trap, unless you roll REALLY well. To beat bog-standard scale mail, you need a total modifier of +7-- that's probably Con 18/Dex 16, which means your Strength is probably significantly lagging. Sticking to medium armor means you can leave Dex at 14, giving you way more options for race and ASIs.

It only really becomes worth it if you're high level and have maxed out Con (so you're also looking at 15-Dex), if you're running a human (which I think is the only way to start with the three 16s you'd need), or if you're going Dex-based.

[ciarannihill]

Unarmored Defense is a trap, unless you roll REALLY well. To beat bog-standard scale mail, you need a total modifier of +7-- that's probably Con 18/Dex 16, which means your Strength is probably significantly lagging. Sticking to medium armor means you can leave Dex at 14, giving you way more options for race and ASIs.

It only really becomes worth it if you're high level and have maxed out Con (so you're also looking at 15-Dex), if you're running a human (which I think is the only way to start with the three 16s you'd need), or if you're going Dex-based.

It's important to note that Scale armor gives Disadvantage on Stealth, which for some campaigns and parties can be very important. Not to mention that you don't have to beat Scale Mail to make Unarmored Defense "worth it", you only have to match a Chain Shirt -- i.e. 15 AC, which is perfectly doable (14 Dex/16 Con or 16 Dex/14 Con) from level 1 with a ton of different races. Plus it requires the same Dex investment (14) with or without the armor, and it's not like you're dumping Con as a Barbarian.

Even if you want to compare it to Scale Mail (which you shouldn't, as Scale Mail has two major drawbacks for Barbarians) it only takes 1 ASI invested into Con to match it anyway, and I find it hard to believe that you weren't going to invest in Con as a Barbarian eventually anyway (If you're a Mountain Dwarf you can do this at level 4 if your point buy is 15 (17) Str / 14 Dex / 15 (17) Con / 8 Int / 10 Wis / 8 Cha by getting +1 Str/+1 Con with your ASI)

Unarmored Defense isn't a "trap", it's a feature that you can elect to use or not, but frankly there's a reason it often sees use -- Barbarians don't start with armor or much money to buy it with. Compared to most armors they can wear Unarmored Defense starts off nearly if not as good or better statistically, costs nothing and tends to be more thematic to boot.

[R.Shackleford]

Unarmored Defense is a trap, unless you roll REALLY well. To beat bog-standard scale mail, you need a total modifier of +7-- that's probably Con 18/Dex 16, which means your Strength is probably significantly lagging. Sticking to medium armor means you can leave Dex at 14, giving you way more options for race and ASIs.

It only really becomes worth it if you're high level and have maxed out Con (so you're also looking at 15-Dex), if you're running a human (which I think is the only way to start with the three 16s you'd need), or if you're going Dex-based.

You don't need the highest numbers to be effective. You only need numbers that work against what the game (or DM) should be putting you up against.

1 or 2 points of AC loss is not a trap in 5e. First off, after 1 or 2 levels, your barbarian gonna have a lot of HP. A shield works with unarmored defense and that 15 is a 17 whenever you need a bit extra defense. However, it isn't till later levels that creatures actually have a good attack bonus.

Plus thr Barbarian doesn't need to focus on strength the be an effective party member (even more so thanks to prodigy athletics).

If you want to focus on Dex/Con because of character design, and want to use unarmored defense, then you do just fine. 5e has a high floor and low ceiling.

I typically go medium armor, big fan of armored barbarian, but I don't see the trap status of unarmored defense.

A trap option needs to make you bad versus the game, not just have less numbers versus another PC. Are you better using 10 + Dex or 10 + Dex + Con to make an unarmored character?

I really think that unarmored defense should have just been 13 + Con (13 + wis for monks, 13 + casting mod for mage armor) but it works as is.

[GlenSmash!]

I'm very likely to start any Barb with 14 Dex and 14+ Con 14-15 AC is super fine at first level, still I'll buy medium armor as soon as I can (preferably a Breasplate), which in most of my campaigns has been before level 5.

[El_Jairo]

If you do go this route, remember not to multiclass until after level 5. You do not want to delay extra attack. But I would strongly consider going to 6 first to get SPIRIT SHIELD.

Thanks for the very thorough explanation.
Spirit Shield is indeed too good to postpone.

I also could see the support roll for Barbarians working mechanically, yet it feels so off thematically. I have a hard time envisioning a warrior who is all about rage being level headed and using real tactical form of combat.
Yet the build to get in a rage and dragging foes away from party members does seem hilarious, especially if you call it the NANNY build. :-D

[GlenSmash!]

Thanks for the very thorough explanation.
Spirit Shield is indeed too good to postpone.

I also could see the support roll for Barbarians working mechanically, yet it feels so off thematically. I have a hard time envisioning a warrior who is all about rage being level headed and using real tactical form of combat.
Yet the build to get in a rage and dragging foes away from party members does seem hilarious, especially if you call it the NANNY build. :-D

There's a bit of a disconnect when it comes to "Rage" for many of the Barbarian subclasses. It seems to only be frothing at the mouth mindlessness for the Berserker (and even then only if you want it to be).

On a Totem warrior it's more of a Primal Survival state. An Ancestral Guardian a Euphoria that connects them to their ancestors. For a Storm Herald it's less anger than the elemental fury of a Hurricane or Blizzard. A Zealot, a holy or unholy state granted by deity.

Hell I can be angry and still want to fight to the best of my ability, including sound tactics.

[Souplex]

I should point out that Medium Armor will probably serve you better than Unarmored unless you've got a total of +7 Dex and Con. Half Plate is 15+Dex to a maximum of 17. Medium armor doesn't penalize your Barbarian features, so you can leave your Dex at 14 and focus entirely on Strength and Con.

[El_Jairo]

While compiling my own sheet I stumbled upon a little error in the Feats post:

Shieldmaster: Reduce damage! Gain a shove! Succeed saves!
If nothing has changed from the PHB, this isn't accurate.

Gain shove as REDACTED, yes.
Reduce damage, not exactly. Ignore some REDACTED damage on REDACTED, more precisely.
Succeed saves, well more correctly: gain a REDACTED bonus to some REDACTED Saves. There is no success guaranteed.

I guess this doesn't change the rating of this feature as I presume that the shove action was the most important part anyways.
Or I could see it as a green feature, which becomes blue when combined with DEX Resilience.

PS: or was this overly simplified wording chosen to not reveal too much about the actual rules and IP?
So I'll go back and make my comments more vague... or simply redact them.

[Mister_Squinty]

I should point out that Medium Armor will probably serve you better than Unarmored unless you've got a total of +7 Dex and Con. Half Plate is 15+Dex to a maximum of 17. Medium armor doesn't penalize your Barbarian features, so you can leave your Dex at 14 and focus entirely on Strength and Con.

Unless you get Bracers of Defense.

[Mikal]

Since you're including UA content as part of your multiclassing guide I'd make special mention of the Mariner and Tunnel Fighting styles.

Tunnel Fighting just in general for any lockdown builds, especially with PAM and Sentinel since you can do a true "you shall not pass" which, with a Barbarian doing it, can be extra damaging.

Mariner gives you an AC bonus even when using unarmored defense (though you cannot use a shield with it), and provides a climb and swim speed equal to your land speed, so useful for those unarmored GWM barbarians.

[PeteNutButter]

I’ll agree that unarmored defense is a trap option. It’s nice if you happen to have godly stats but investing anything in it is a bad choice compared to boosting strength or taking feats (provided they are allowed).

Unrelated, what’s with the lack of love for wolf totem (3rd level)? IMO it is usually stronger than bear. As long as you have one or more melee companions it’s ridiculously strong. Get a GWM fighter and/or paladin or a rogue next to you and they have permanent advantage on all the tough fights. It’s borderline overpowered. It just gets a bad wrap because people don’t give proper respect to supporting other people’s damage.

[GlenSmash!]

Mariner gives you an AC bonus even when using unarmored defense (though you cannot use a shield with it), and provides a climb and swim speed equal to your land speed, so useful for those unarmored GWM barbarians.

Mariner is an awesome fit for a Non-shield using Barbarian. Easily my favorite for a Barb/Fighter since I mostly play Heavy Weapon users or grapplers.

[Doccit]

I was thinking of doing an ancestral guardians build with a reach weapon. What do you guys think?

The idea is this: if you hit an enemy with a reach weapon while raging, their options are to (1) attack the adjacent ally protected by the guardian (2) attack you with a ranged attack at disadvantage, because of your adjacent friend, or (3) eat an opportunity attack from the friend in order to get to you for a melee attack. If you've got someone else in the party who does melee, it seems like a pretty damn strong defensive combination. I figure with this, you could be reckless attacking with Great Weapon Master all the time and not worry too much about survivability. Especially with spirit shield.

By the way, the OP alludes to some kind of synergy between ancestral guardians and cavalier. I'm just not seeing it. Could someone explain? Seems like a bad idea to double-up on marking features to me.

My current plan is Barbarian 6 (ancestral guardian) -> Fighter 3 (champion) -> Barbarian X. But I'm worried a crit-fishing build would get boring. Does anyone have suggestions about more tactical/exciting/utility-focused alternatives that are at least comparably effective?

[Protato]

Came on a bit too late to be relevant, been busy with school, but I've managed to update the guide with Guildmaster's Guide to Ravinica races!

[GlenSmash!]

Came on a bit too late to be relevant, been busy with school, but I've managed to update the guide with Guildmaster's Guide to Ravinica races!

Thanks for the update. It's interesting to see the differences between the Centaurs side by side like that.

[Ganymede]

I don't know... the added options all look great, but I still feel like this would be more complete if you added DMsGuild's Path of the Gloambound to the guide.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't know... the added options all look great, but I still feel like this would be more complete if you added DMsGuild's Path of the Gloambound to the guide.

I'm impressed that you at least had the wherewithal to wait 8 months before pushing your homebrew again.

[Crucius]

My current plan is Barbarian 6 (ancestral guardian) -> Fighter 3 (champion) -> Barbarian X. But I'm worried a crit-fishing build would get boring. Does anyone have suggestions about more tactical/exciting/utility-focused alternatives that are at least comparably effective?

If you want more control and tactical wit, I would suggest the battlemaster. Tripping attack almost guarantees you can get out of range of the enemy so they cannot hit you, while menacing attack could be used to double up on one enemy or disable two (the first one with ancestral protectors). You are right to dread the champion. With the (battlemaster) fighter being a short rest class you'll have some nice adventuring day pacing and always something to do.

[masterjoda99]

How would you make a grappler barbarian?

[sophontteks]

How would you make a grappler barbarian?

Its honestly harder not to.

My fav is taking totem with eagle, bear, eagle and picking up tavern brawler.

[Ganymede]

I'm impressed that you at least had the wherewithal to wait 8 months before pushing your homebrew again.

You can go find something more productive with your time than being passive-aggressive to me on the internet, or you can get put on ignore.

[Perlywhirly]

I think what they mean is that guides typically do not go over homebrew content because it is not applicable to the majority of tables. If one starts adding homebrews to guides, where does it end? I’m sure you aren’t just trying to plug your own homebrew and are instead coming from a place of genuine interest, so I am sure that you understand now that adding unofficial material to a guide is not the best idea.

[Ganymede]

I think what they mean is that guides typically do not go over homebrew content because it is not applicable to the majority of tables. If one starts adding homebrews to guides, where does it end? I’m sure you aren’t just trying to plug your own homebrew and are instead coming from a place of genuine interest, so I am sure that you understand now that adding unofficial material to a guide is not the best idea.

Tell that to the OP, not me.

if there's a demand, I could take popular homebrew and make guides for that, too.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Tell that to the OP, not me.

It's not "popular homebrew" you have only one review. No offense to you or your efforts on it, but again I'd advise against attempting to hijack a guide thread to push your own. You're also attempting to suggest it to the OP as if it's not your own homebrew, which seems pretty disingenuous.

[Ganymede]

That was some weird, unnecessary escalation. Meh, it ain't my problem anymore.

[GlenSmash!]

How would you make a grappler barbarian?

Any flavor of Barbarian works well for this. But consider, many creatures are immune to grappling due to automatically escape grapple attempts by being huge or larger.

So the question I ask on any grappling build is what do I want to do when I can't grapple? Do more damage, protect my allies, be tanky etc.

I'm not a huge fan of storm Heralds, but I've been recondsering a Grapple Barb who holds enemies in his aura.