Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Lemmy]

It's a bit difficult to claim royalties when you keep your identity a secret... How can courts rule in favor of a guy who keeps his face and name a secret?

[Dragonus45]

It's a bit difficult to claim royalties when you keep your identity a secret... How can courts rule in favor of a guy who keeps his face and name a secret?

Marvel actually has a lot of legal precedents to protect masked vigilantes. The big one is that they are allowed to testify without revealing their faces.

[Lemmy]

Marvel actually has a lot of legal precedents to protect masked vigilantes. The big one is that they are allowed to testify without revealing their faces.

True. But we don't know how far that protection goes (or how consistently it's applied)... Being able to testify is different from getting royalties. Who would they even send checks to? How could anyone verify the masked super-guy in front of them is actually Spider-Man instead of another dude impersonating him for the money?

[Reddish Mage]

True. But we don't know how far that protection goes (or how consistently it's applied)... Being able to testify is different from getting royalties. Who would they even send checks to? How could anyone verify the masked super-guy in front of them is actually Spider-Man instead of another dude impersonating him for the money?

Spider-Man is the one that comes in by riding the skyscrapers.

[Kitten Champion]

That came up in the Ultimate Spider-Man (The comic series, not the cartoon) where they're shooting the Raimi Spider-Man in New York while Spider-Man himself is going about his business. Spider-Man complains of course about his image being used and the unrealistic nature of the story, and the studio people taunt him that he's public domain like any historical figure but if he wanted to come forward to give his side of things they'd totally be into that.

Though, really, the whole point of his origin story was Peter trying to cash in on his powers and it leading directly to the death of his Uncle/father-figure. I'm not sure how more 1-to-1 you could get to his most basic characterization than to refuse wealth off the Spider-Man role.

[Anteros]

There was also the whole arc where Kingpin licensed Spidey's image and was collecting royalties from it just to annoy Spidey that every good deed he did made Kingpin richer.

[Rater202]

Spider-Man once sued the Daily Bugle for slander and libel and almost won. He'd have won if he hadn't been forced by circumstances to drop the case.

Spider-Man is the one that comes in by riding the skyscrapers.

Knowing Peter's luck, the response would be "how do we knw you're not the Scarlet Spider or Venom in disquise?"

Though, really, the whole point of his origin story was Peter trying to cash in on his powers and it leading directly to the death of his Uncle/father-figure. I'm not sure how more 1-to-1 you could get to his most basic characterization than to refuse wealth off the Spider-Man role.

The very second Spider-Man Story had Peter immediately go back to doing shows for money in addition to super-heroics only for him to not be able to cash the pay-check because he had it made out to Spider-Man.

His first ever encounter with genuine superhumans was him trying to join the Fantastic Four under the mistaken impression that they got paid.

[Kitten Champion]

The very second Spider-Man Story had Peter immediately go back to doing shows for money in addition to super-heroics only for him to not be able to cash the pay-check because he had it made out to Spider-Man.

Yeah, there are lot of terrible, mischaracterizing Spider-Man stories like where he sold his marriage to Satan. Shockingly, it's his origin which has been the most - or among the most - fondly remembered of his stories and the one that writers keep drawing themes from for nigh on eternity.

His first ever encounter with genuine superhumans was him trying to join the Fantastic Four under the mistaken impression that they got paid.

I can see that. He was overjoyed to join the Avengers because he's still a lower-middle class guy with money problems.

[Rater202]

Yeah, there are lot of terrible, mischaracterizing Spider-Man stories like where he sold his marriage to Satan. Shockingly, it's his origin which has been the most - or among the most - fondly remembered of his stories and the one that writers keep drawing themes from for nigh on eternity.

...This was literally the second ever Spider-Man story. The Amazing Spider-Man #1, 1963, by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, who created the character and wrote his Origin Story in Amazing Fantasy #15.

To argue that Spider-Man was out of character in Amazing Spider-Man #1 i...Ugh.

[Lemmy]

...This was literally the second ever Spider-Man story. The Amazing Spider-Man #1, 1963, by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, who created the character and wrote his Origin Story in Amazing Fantasy #15.

To argue that Spider-Man was out of character in Amazing Spider-Man #1 i...Ugh.

Yes, and Batman used to use guns. Superman couldn't fly (and was kind of a ****). Wonder Woman lost her powers when tied by a man...

Characterization moves on. It might not have been out of character then, but it could be so today.

[Anteros]

...This was literally the second ever Spider-Man story. The Amazing Spider-Man #1, 1963, by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, who created the character and wrote his Origin Story in Amazing Fantasy #15.

To argue that Spider-Man was out of character in Amazing Spider-Man #1 i...Ugh.

Superman couldn't fly in his first story. Characters evolve. Especially when there are 60+ years of stories about them.

[Kitten Champion]

Yes, and Batman used to use guns. Superman couldn't fly (and was kind of a ****). Wonder Woman lost her powers when tied by a man...

Characterization moves. It might not have been out of character then, but it could be so today.

Imagine if we were stuck with silver age characterization for Superheros simply because "It came first so it's more canonical, Ugh"-mentality. I could tell you, I'm not interested in the creepy X-Men who spend their time salivating over the lone girl among them 'cuz she's hawt and stuff.

Edit: Or, I suddenly remember, Sue Storm, a well-known doormat waif of a girl who shrinks away from conflict and cries a lot, because that's her characterization in the 60's and by god that must carry on to everything ever, right?

[Rater202]

More recently Peter basically stumbled into a Doctorate and multimillion dollar corporation he didn't earn and kept it up until he had to burn everything to keep Hydra from getting their hands on his tech.(Considering what happened the last time a villain got their hands on PI tech, this was the correct move)


regardless, my point is that it was said that Spider-Man's origin story would contradict theidea that he'd want money for Spider-Manning.

Literally, the very next story by the exact same people shows that no, he still wants money for Spide-rManning, he's just going to be doing the superhero thing as well.

Amazing Spider-Man #1 was published in the same year and written and drawn by the same people as PEter's Origin in Amazing Fantasy #15. It has all the same qualities as the original Origin Story.

If you're taking Ditko Era spidey, you gotta take all of Ditko era spidey.

[deuterio12]

Literally, the very next story by the exact same people shows that no, he still wants money for Spide-rManning, he's just going to be doing the superhero thing as well.

There's a big difference between wanting the money and actually getting and keeping the money.

Indeed spider-man went back to show business after uncle got killed, only for the Chameleon to trick the bankers into taking all the money (turns out that spider man's powers are pretty easy to fake when you can set up the time and place).

You even point out how he almost managed to sue the bulge. Other people pointed out how in-universe companies make spider-man movies without paying him a cent and even the Kingpin manages to cash in spidey's image.

All because Peter never bothered to properly trademark his image and is too busy trying to stop every small-time robber he can detect to take his case to court and make it stick.

So yeah even if there's marvel movies in marvelverse, Peter's not seeing a single cent from them no matter how much he would like it.

[Reddish Mage]

So how to explain how he doesn’t ever patent and make money on any of his inventions?

And I suppose the explanation on why he doesn’t get rich on his Spider-Man photos is that Jameson is taking advantage of him.

On another note, Lucy v. Carnage happened

Spoiler: Someone takes the Lied in maximum Carnage

Show

I may not have been paying attention but I don’t think strength played in this battle. Lucy had the overwhelming speed advantage and that and her 28 hands were too much for Carnage to handle.

She ended things by basically nuking Carnage.


This makes me think of whether this logic could be applied to Dante v. Bayonetta.

[Keltest]

So how to explain how he doesn’t ever patent and make money on any of his inventions?

I thought that is what he did once he made it out of school?

[HolyDraconus]

So how to explain how he doesn’t ever patent and make money on any of his inventions?

And I suppose the explanation on why he doesn’t get rich on his Spider-Man photos is that Jameson is taking advantage of him.

On another note, Lucy v. Carnage happened

Spoiler: Someone takes the Lied in maximum Carnage

Show

I may not have been paying attention but I don’t think strength played in this battle. Lucy had the overwhelming speed advantage and that and her 28 hands were too much for Carnage to handle.

She ended things by basically nuking Carnage.


This makes me think of whether this logic could be applied to Dante v. Bayonetta.

Did you sub to them to get that?

[Reddish Mage]

I subscribed to RoosterTeeth, Death Battle is a bonus.

[Lemmy]

Wait... So now DB is locked behind a pay wall?

Guess I'll watch even fewer of them now...

[Rater202]

It's not locked behind a paywall.

Screwattack has some deal with Roosterteath, so if you have a Roosterteeth first account, which lets you see RT's content a week before it gets uploaded to Youtube, you can see DeathBattles a weak early too.

[Devonix]

It's not locked behind a paywall.

Screwattack has some deal with Roosterteath, so if you have a Roosterteeth first account, which lets you see RT's content a week before it gets uploaded to Youtube, you can see DeathBattles a weak early too.

It's not behind a paywall. It just gets released to subscribers 2 days early it's been this way for years.

[Traab]

Wait... So now DB is locked behind a pay wall?

Guess I'll watch even fewer of them now...

They get an early release.

[deuterio12]

So how to explain how he doesn’t ever patent and make money on any of his inventions?

He actually tried that in at least one comic, but failed miserably because again he sucks at business/marketing and screwed up getting anybody to invest on him.

And I suppose the explanation on why he doesn’t get rich on his Spider-Man photos is that Jameson is taking advantage of him.

That too, it's a running joke how Jameson pays Peter a fraction of what his photos are actually worth.

And that's just part of spider-man's character. He's not only a super hero, he's also a young man that is always struggling with financial problems on top of everything else while being abused by his boss and simply doesn't know better to improve his situation. Peter's not Tony/Bruce who can juggle a millionary business while being a super-hero neither is he Clark Kent that can make diamonds out of coal and has a high-tech alien fortress to relax in after saving the world and only works as a reporter as a hobby nor is he part of a solid team like the X-men/Fantastic Four where somebody else will run his finances.

[tyckspoon]

He actually tried that in at least one comic, but failed miserably because again he sucks at business/marketing and screwed up getting anybody to invest on him.

There's a relatively early bit where he is taking the adhesive he developed for his web-shooters around to places and trying to get them to purchase the patent rights. If I remember correctly at least one of the meetings shown on panel has the potential purchaser claim that there's just no useful application for a super strong but temporary glue, which shows an astonishing lack of imagination.. I suppose he'd have had better luck marketing it to like riot departments and prisons and the like, which would have had an obvious use for it in the same way Spider-Man uses it for effective, temporary, and non-harmful restraints.

[Rater202]

On the topic of Peter selling his photos to Jameson, while Jameson probably doesn't pay what they're worth, do keep in mind that PEter was a freelance rather than a photjournalist working for the Bugel.

Jameson also doesn't ask how Peter took them. Anyone else Peter tried to sell them to asked him too many awkward questions about how he knew where Spider-Man was or how he got to the top of the Empire State bulding to get the Photos.

Also, as of Peter Parker: Spectacular Spider-Man Anual #1, it's been retconed that the reason Jameson started buying the pictures from PEter in the first place is becuase he looked into Peter when he was 15-16 and came into the Bugel to sell his pictures and while looking into him he found out about Uncle Ben and decided that this kid clearly needed the money.

Spoiler

Show

[deuterio12]

There's a relatively early bit where he is taking the adhesive he developed for his web-shooters around to places and trying to get them to purchase the patent rights. If I remember correctly at least one of the meetings shown on panel has the potential purchaser claim that there's just no useful application for a super strong but temporary glue, which shows an astonishing lack of imagination.. I suppose he'd have had better luck marketing it to like riot departments and prisons and the like, which would have had an obvious use for it in the same way Spider-Man uses it for effective, temporary, and non-harmful restraints.

That's why I said Peter sucks at business/marketing. There's a lot of products out there that only became popular after somebody came up with the right sales pitch. Sometimes you need to find a problem to your solution.

On the topic of Peter selling his photos to Jameson, while Jameson probably doesn't pay what they're worth, do keep in mind that PEter was a freelance rather than a photjournalist working for the Bugel.

Jameson also doesn't ask how Peter took them. Anyone else Peter tried to sell them to asked him too many awkward questions about how he knew where Spider-Man was or how he got to the top of the Empire State bulding to get the Photos.

That's standard business for big news journals and freelancers. If you start asking too many questions to the freelancer who got a big scoop, they'll just take their business to one of your rival and they'll be the ones racking in the big bucks.

Also, as of Peter Parker: Spectacular Spider-Man Anual #1, it's been retconed that the reason Jameson started buying the pictures from PEter in the first place is becuase he looked into Peter when he was 15-16 and came into the Bugel to sell his pictures and while looking into him he found out about Uncle Ben and decided that this kid clearly needed the money.

Spoiler

Show

"Kid lost is father figure. Better to motivate him to keep taking photos of fights between dangerous super-humans and armed criminals. Surely I can't put a good word for him to get a safer, more stable job."

[Rater202]

To be fair, that was literally within the first couple of batches of photographs he sold to Jameson, back before Peter started fighting serial killers in the sewers and the roofs of skyscrapers.

As far as Jameson knew, the kid was in no more danger than any other civilian who happened to have a camera on him at the time a super-fight happened.

[Reddish Mage]

To be fair, that was literally within the first couple of batches of photographs he sold to Jameson, back before Peter started fighting serial killers in the sewers and the roofs of skyscrapers.

As far as Jameson knew, the kid was in no more danger than any other civilian who happened to have a camera on him at the time a super-fight happened.

That's a very thin defense, especially because Jameson kept it up. Its not like you can say "this kid is just randomly come by a Superfight" again and again.

[Traab]

So watched the fight, I have to say it didnt go how I expected.

Spoiler

Show

I fully expected carnage to at least outlast her but he barely landed some minor hits.

[Delicious Taffy]

That's a very thin defense, especially because Jameson kept it up. Its not like you can say "this kid is just randomly come by a Superfight" again and again.

Maybe Jameson just trusts Peter to take his own risks and be responsible for his own well-being. If the kid keeps coming back with high-quality photos and is more or less intact, clearly that trust is well-placed. If he's too beat up to turn in photos, well, he's freelance anyway and he should know not to stand in front of a pumpkin bomb.