Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Lemmy]

Page 1 of the new thread, and it's already back to GvS. Classic.

We value tradition here, sir!

(And to be fair, they haven't had another match yet since this thread started... So we might as well revisit the old ones. I played KH1 and 2 a long time ago, so I don't remember much about Sora... And know even less about Pit. And I care little about either, so the next match just isn't very interesting for me... But TBF, these days, I skip must matches and just watch the ones that sound really interesting, like Kenshiro x Jotaro).

Off the top of my head, I can remember 3 matches I strongly agree with the result: Zangief x Haggar, Samus x Boba Fett and Flash x Quicksilver... But then again, Zangief x Haggar was somewhat obvious and the other two were extremely obvious. I honestly don't recall any match whose result I agree that was actually somewhat fairly balanced and DB just made a good argument for it... I mean... There might be one, but I don't remember.

[Rater202]

Yes, because the argument wasn't "Superman has infinite power", it was that both Goku and Superman have immeasurable strength, so a winner can't be picked by going through the numbers. Superman scraped a victory by a tongue-in-cheek judgement that his character concept and plots often revolve around him being the strongest person while Goku's are about him not (yet) being the strongest person in the universe.

Considering That Goku's most recent feat involved him easily overpowering the strongest mortal in the Multiverse and surpassing the GoDs, I'm gonna say that that last point no-longer applies.

Also, the book of infinite page argument is the cornerstone of the "Superman has Infinite Strength" argument that the boys cited in the first video(Along with a bit of Insane Troll Logic, that he can grow infinitly strong by Absorbing Infinite Sunlight when there isn't Infinite Sunlight in the universe)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I honestly don't recall any match whose result I agree that was actually somewhat fairly balanced and DB just made a good argument for it... I mean... There might be one, but I don't remember.

Part of the problem here is that the more imbalanced a matchup is, the easier it is to call. As the balance of a matchup approaches 50/50, one's ability to conclusively declare a winner approaches zero.

It's the basic principle of fighting game matchups: with two well-matched characters, the end result depends on so many contextual elements that it's impossible to pick a clear winner. In a 5-5 matchup, it's a coin flip. I wish there were a good way to roll that into the premise, because the best part of a DB is never the part where you get a canonical "who would always win" result, it's the part where they both duke it out with all their abilities.

Which IMO is why the Pinkiepool DB is on a completely new tier of goodness. It wasn't about determining an absolute winner, it was about telling a great story in the fight.

[Lemmy]

Part of the problem here is that the more imbalanced a matchup is, the easier it is to call. As the balance of a matchup approaches 50/50, one's ability to conclusively declare a winner approaches zero.

It's the basic principle of fighting game matchups: with two well-matched characters, the end result depends on so many contextual elements that it's impossible to pick a clear winner. In a 5-5 matchup, it's a coin flip. I wish there were a good way to roll that into the premise, because the best part of a DB is never the part where you get a canonical "who would always win" result, it's the part where they both duke it out with all their abilities.

Which IMO is why the Pinkiepool DB is on a completely new tier of goodness. It wasn't about determining an absolute winner, it was about telling a great story in the fight.

I disagree. I like to see well-thought arguments for certain match-ups. None of the results are canonical, definitive or even particularly worthy or consideration, but seeing a well-reasoned argument is the interesting part, even if I disagree with the final conclusion... Which is why it really annoys me when match-ups are decided by obvious bias (Yang x Tifa was downright shameful) or lazy research...

The match-up itself is just filler... A gimmick to make the video more entertaining.

Aside from that... Matches don't have to be completely balanced, but they shouldn't be extremely obvious either. Flash x Quicksilver was ridiculous. Their powers are on completely different scales! It's like making a Hulk x Luke Kage match just because they both have super-strength.

[Rater202]

Aside from that... Matches don't have to be completely balanced, but they shouldn't be extremely obvious either. Flash x Quicksilver was ridiculous. Their powers are on completely different scales! It's like making a Hulk x Luke Kage match just because they both have super-strength.

Actually, Luke Cage is consistantly depicted as having strength at roughly equal to and growing at roughly the same rate as The Thing, who is explcitly stated to be the only one capable of potentially overpowering a completly out of control Hulk, so if Luke's in spitting distance then Cage and Hulk are a pretty decent matchup.

The problem comes more from the fact that Cage's superhuman durability tends to cap out at "just strong enough to not hurt myself doing this thing" with only his "bullet proof skinn with the toughness of tintanium-steel" being set in stone, witch a healing factor of "three times as fast as the average human" while the Hulk's toughness is in the "can tank multible explosions likes it's nothing" and has a healing factor comperable to Wolverine's.

Also, Hulk never gets tired, so if nothing else he'd win by attrition.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, Cage is pretty tough but there's a reason he's a B-tier hero at best while Hulk has titles like "Worldbreaker".

He's come a long way from his early days of "can lift a car if he strains himself" but not far enough to win a slugging match with Hulk or Thor.

[Traab]

I disagree. I like to see well-thought arguments for certain match-ups. None of the results are canonical, definitive or even particularly worthy or consideration, but seeing a well-reasoned argument is the interesting part, even if I disagree with the final conclusion... Which is why it really annoys me when match-ups are decided by obvious bias (Yang x Tifa was downright shameful) or lazy research...

The match-up itself is just filler... A gimmick to make the video more entertaining.

Aside from that... Matches don't have to be completely balanced, but they shouldn't be extremely obvious either. Flash x Quicksilver was ridiculous. Their powers are on completely different scales! It's like making a Hulk x Luke Kage match just because they both have super-strength.

Yeah the issue with the flash quicksilver match was, they really wanted to use a speedster, then realized that flash was so bat spit insanely overpowered compared to literally any other iteration of any speedster in any form of media that has ever existed that this was the best they could do. They could have ignored flash and tried to go with quicksilver and some other speedster, probably have fun with the roadrunner, or speedy gonzalez by using one off cartoon physics examples to show how they are equal, but ignoring flash would have been nuts. As for cage, dude beat up DOOM. You dont mess with luke cage. You ESPECIALLY dont back out when you owe the man money. He will straight up come to your house, give you the pimp hand, and keep it up till you pay what you owe. Legend states it this was the real reason why its always a doombot. Poor bastard is terrified of cage coming back and doom not being able to proclaim it wasnt really him getting slapped silly.

[tonberrian]

I mean, we could use Supes going arbitrarily close to the speed of light flying for any sort of strength argument. Pushing past lightspeed is, essentially, more than infinite strength/durability/energy/whatever.

[Blackhawk748]

We value tradition here, sir!

(And to be fair, they haven't had another match yet since this thread started... So we might as well revisit the old ones. I played KH1 and 2 a long time ago, so I don't remember much about Sora... And know even less about Pit. And I care little about either, so the next match just isn't very interesting for me... But TBF, these days, I skip must matches and just watch the ones that sound really interesting, like Kenshiro x Jotaro).

Off the top of my head, I can remember 3 matches I strongly agree with the result: Zangief x Haggar, Samus x Boba Fett and Flash x Quicksilver... But then again, Zangief x Haggar was somewhat obvious and the other two were extremely obvious. I honestly don't recall any match whose result I agree that was actually somewhat fairly balanced and DB just made a good argument for it... I mean... There might be one, but I don't remember.

Guts vs Nightmare was ok and not super obvious until it was over.

[Seppl]

Considering That Goku's most recent feat involved him easily overpowering the strongest mortal in the Multiverse and surpassing the GoDs, I'm gonna say that that last point no-longer applies.

Also, the book of infinite page argument is the cornerstone of the "Superman has Infinite Strength" argument that the boys cited in the first video(Along with a bit of Insane Troll Logic, that he can grow infinitly strong by Absorbing Infinite Sunlight when there isn't Infinite Sunlight in the universe)

Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

[Durkoala]

Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

Thank you for saying what I meant to say, in a much clearer way than I could.

[Ibrinar]

I mean, we could use Supes going arbitrarily close to the speed of light flying for any sort of strength argument. Pushing past lightspeed is, essentially, more than infinite strength/durability/energy/whatever.

And any wizard who conjures meal out of nothing (at least when it isn't summoning instead or formed out of nearby matter) has energy comparable to a big nuke since E=mc²!

[Rater202]

Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on a screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

The infinite pages aren't literally impossible because it's a magic book that can't possibly weigh infinity or it would collapse into a black hole. Also it's literally only Superman's word that it has Infinte Pages.

also, if you look at Goku's calculated numbers... Okay, ignoring that they chose a point where Goku was pretty low on the "planetary-level scale"(Snake way? Seriously?) for their base calcs, they did kind of make a huge math error.

Specifically, hen calculating Goku's multipliers, they once divided where they should have multiplied and they didn't catch it by Superman v Goku 2. Strictly speaking, that wouldn't have changed the outcome using DBs calcs... But I disagree with the Gravity Method in the first place.

This video gives a quick calc based on known power levels and the feats of people at know power levels including the snake way fly speed that DB uses for the gravity calc. I do have a problem with him throwing out Superman surviving a singular Supernova based entirely on the strength calcs he did for Clark, though. and he didn't even do durability calcs for either Goku or Superman.

Of course, that's all irrelevant because Death Battles used GT in their composite Goku(and GT treats all of the movies as canon) and cited Cooler as an example of Goku trying to defeat people by throwing them into the sun, meaning that Movies are in, and if the Movies are in than Goku was several times the power of a confirmed casual Galaxy Buster the first time he ever went Super Saiyan which puts Goku well above the planetary power scale, at the top tier of the Galalxy Scale if not the universal scale before he even meets Lord Beerus.

[Lemmy]

Guts vs Nightmare was ok and not super obvious until it was over.

Honestly... I didn't even remember that one. In fact, now that you mentioned it, I remember watching it, but don't remember anything about it.

[Rater202]

Oh... Death battles rules is that any and all moral or ethical compunctions that would prevent the characters from killing their opponent are removed. This is how they justify Batman and Superman and the like being okay with fights to the death.

They removed Superman's code against killing--depicting him as putting Goku down in cold blood in the second one--but didn't remove Goku's desire for a fair fight and preferance for fighting the same person over and over again--in the actual showdown of part one, they had Goku destroy a rock of Kryptonite, but if this was Goku going for the kill without his moral compuntions he'd have just taken the shot and killed Clark while he was vulnerble.

[Keltest]

Oh... Death battles rules is that any and all moral or ethical compunctions that would prevent the characters from killing their opponent are removed. This is how they justify Batman and Superman and the like being okay with fights to the death.

They removed Superman's code against killing--depicting him as putting Goku down in cold blood in the second one--but didn't remove Goku's desire for a fair fight and preferance for fighting the same person over and over again--in the actual showdown of part one, they had Goku destroy a rock of Kryptonite, but if this was Goku going for the kill without his moral compuntions he'd have just taken the shot and killed Clark while he was vulnerble.

Goku's desire for a "fair" fight isn't a moral compunction though, he's just a maniac who likes to challenge himself. He will absolutely abandon that principal when theres more on the line than himself.

[Traab]

Oh... Death battles rules is that any and all moral or ethical compunctions that would prevent the characters from killing their opponent are removed. This is how they justify Batman and Superman and the like being okay with fights to the death.

They removed Superman's code against killing--depicting him as putting Goku down in cold blood in the second one--but didn't remove Goku's desire for a fair fight and preferance for fighting the same person over and over again--in the actual showdown of part one, they had Goku destroy a rock of Kryptonite, but if this was Goku going for the kill without his moral compuntions he'd have just taken the shot and killed Clark while he was vulnerble.

The argument there is, they only negate influences that would stop them from trying to kill. The basic gist being, "Pretty much no hero kills, therefore we have to say they are going for the kill or else virtually no death battle ends with a win unless a villain is involved" Its literally handwaving the no kill rule away and nothing else. Thats the only part of their personality effected. So if goku acts a certain way, then he acts that way in a death battle, unless it includes not being willing to kill. Its like saying the doom/vader fight was stupid because doom used a bot to start things off with instead of going right for the full power kill. Or really, ANY fight where there are power levels and the character doesnt start at peak.

[Lemmy]

Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

1- Except... Not. Goku is seen defeating enemies clearly able to destroy galaxies. As much as people claim "Cell was just bragging about about being a solar planet buster", it's completely consistent with the type of power scaling seen in all of DBZ. Not to mention that characters simply don't lie about what they can do (other than "I can defeat that guy!" and even then, they're usually just mistaken due to arrogance and overconfidence). If Vegeta at the Saiyan arc could destroy planets (and he could), then it makes perfect sense for Cell to be able to destroy a solar system. And beating opponents that shrug off planet-busting attacks doesn't count... Why exactly?

The only way the numbers calculated tell Goku is "orders of magnitude below Superman" is by using DB's cherry-picking and logic twists.

2- Hearing a whistle from Vega says more about the whistle and the writer's completely lack of understanding of basic physics than about Superman's ability. Besides, everything these characters do is impossible! Unless you know someone who can fly by virtue of just being that good in kung-fu. Goku moves so fast that he leaves "afterimages" that last seconds (and move). That's impossible, but he does it anyway. He creates copies of his own body out of nowhere. He teleports. He eats more than his body-weight in food in a breakfast. He turns into a giant ape. He sense's people life energy. He moves when time is stopped... etc.

All of that is impossible, but he does it anyway (and Superman can't do any of that, BTW, so he clearly can't do anything. And if we go by story logic, then mid-battle Goku should've awakened a more powerful form and beat the crap out of Superman).

[Rater202]

Also, if the argument is that Superman wins due to his narrative.

Superman is a nigh-invincible extraterrestrial being who, by virtue of his blood, has godlike powers and while he does, in fact, have some degree of martial arts training, it's mostly what he is rather than what he knows that makes him so powerful.

...*Cough Cough* King Piccolo. Piccolo junior. Vegeta. Freiza. The androids and Cell. Buu. Skipping Beerus because Goku didn't surpass him till later. Frieza again. Technically Goku Black and Zamasu but they kind of cheated. Kefla(explicitly sights being a fusion of two Saiyan prodigies for why she's so strong, "Hooray for being born a Saiyan!") By the end of Super at the very least Beerus and Belmod, if not all the GoDZ

If we generalize it down to beings who merely have a reputation for being invincible that is rarely challenged, we can add Hit and Jiren.

If we include GTs and the movies... Basically all of those villains ever forever.

All people who showed up at a point where Goku and company were no match, and Goku eventually defeated them anyway and, if he didn't surpass them then, he surpassed them, sometimes several times over, eventually.

Narratively speaking, Goku and crew eat people like Superman for breakfast.

If you're making a narrative argument for Goku versus Superman, Goku will just barely win over Superman, and then the next time they meet they'll be friends or at least allies while they're fighting against somebody stronger than both of them, and then within a few arcs Goku will be significantly more powerful that Superman unless Clark goes out of his way to keep up and even that's iffy.

Edit: Also, going from a feats perspective... In the Manga version of Dragon Ball Super, Goku is capable of using a technique called Hakai(destruction) wherein he transforms his God Ki into pure entropic energy and utterly obliterates matter with no regard for its durability. As demonstrated by the GoDs, Hakai can kill even beings who are immortal or already dead and a being who is slain by Hakai is completely destroyed in both body and soul.

It failed to work on Merged Zamasu, but that's more because Zamasu was able to interrupt the attack before he'd been completely obliterated and, being immortal, didn't need to have the half of his upper body that he'd lost to live. Superman doesn't have that advantage.

[Keltest]

Also, if the argument is that Superman wins due to his narrative.

Superman is a nigh-invincible extraterrestrial being who, by virtue of his blood, has godlike powers and while he does, in fact, have some degree of martial arts training, it's mostly what he is rather than what he knows that makes him so powerful.

...*Cough Cough* King Piccolo. Piccolo junior. Vegeta. Freiza. The androids andCell. Buu. Skipping Beerus because Goku didn't surpass him till later. Frieza again. Technically Goku Black and Zamasu but they kind of cheated. Kefla(excplcitly sights being a fusion of two saiyan prodigies for why she's so strong "hooray for being born a saiyan!") By the end of Super at the very least Beerus and Belmod, if not

If we generalize it down to beings who merely have a reputation for being invincible that is rarely challenged, we can add Hit and Jiren.

If we include GTs and the movies... Basically all of those villains ever forever.

All people who showed up at a point where Goku and company were no match, and Goku eventually defeated them anyway and, if he didn't surpass them then, he surpassed them, sometimes several times over, eventually.

Narrativly speaking, Goku and crew eat people like Superman for breakfast.

If you're making a narrative argument for Goku versus Superman, Goku will just barely win over Superman, and then the next time they meet they're be frineds or at least allies while they're fighting against somebody stronger than both of them, and then within a few arcs Goku will be significantly more powerful that Superman unless Clark goes out of his way to keep up and even that's iffy.

The thing is, Piccolo, or Vageeta, or Freeza, or whoever aren't in this fight. Their narratives don't matter. Youre basically declaring that Goku's narrative wins out because it just does. That's not at all compelling.

[JNAProductions]

The thing is, Piccolo, or Vageeta, or Freeza, or whoever aren't in this fight. Their narratives don't matter. Youre basically declaring that Goku's narrative wins out because it just does. That's not at all compelling.

As compared to "Superman's narrative wins because it just does"?

In a Superman story, Supes wins because he's the best.

In a DB story, Goku wins because he quickly BECOMES the best.

Which narrative takes precedent?

[Rater202]

The thing is, Piccolo, or Vageeta, or Freeza, or whoever aren't in this fight. Their narratives don't matter. Youre basically declaring that Goku's narrative wins out because it just does. That's not at all compelling.

And death-battles is arguing that Superman's narrative of being an invincible alien being wins out because it just does, even though Goku's narrative is "defeat the invincible alien."

Also, you missed my edit where I also give a non-narrative reason for why Goku can, as of now, defeat Superman.

[Anteros]

As compared to "Superman's narrative wins because it just does"?

In a Superman story, Supes wins because he's the best.

In a DB story, Goku wins because he quickly BECOMES the best.

Which narrative takes precedent?

Apparently Superman's according to Death Battle and a good number of the people in this thread.

Maybe we should have Superman vs Guts since Guts only won his fight based on the logic that "sure he's outmatched...but Guts always wins when he's outmatched! We only ignore plot armor when it's convenient!"

[Keltest]

As compared to "Superman's narrative wins because it just does"?

In a Superman story, Supes wins because he's the best.

In a DB story, Goku wins because he quickly BECOMES the best.

Which narrative takes precedent?

Superman's, because starting off in a winning state trumps moving into a winning state over time. If the game is "whoever attacks first wins", the man faster on the draw will win.

[JNAProductions]

Now, I'm not keeping up with Super...

But didn't someone say Ultra Instinct lets Goku basically power up as needed mid-combat? Like training on steroids?

And, hell, Goku beat Frieza (the invincible alien) first time he met him. He had trained his butt off beforehand, sure, but he didn't meet Frieza, lose, train, and then win-he just won. I mean, took Krillin dying, but hey.

[Rater202]

Superman's, because starting off in a winning state trumps moving into a winning state over time. If the game is "whoever attacks first wins", the man faster on the draw will win.

Supemran's narrative state is "invincible"

goku's narrative state is "I don't care that it's literally impossible for me to beat you because you're invincible, I'm gonna do it anyway!"

Goku's narrative would take precedent over Superman's simply because Superman's narrative role is shared by the antagonists in goku's stories.

Also, Hakai. Superman doesn't have a defense against godly magic what completely obliterates both body and soul.

[Kitten Champion]

The argument there is, they only negate influences that would stop them from trying to kill. The basic gist being, "Pretty much no hero kills, therefore we have to say they are going for the kill or else virtually no death battle ends with a win unless a villain is involved" Its literally handwaving the no kill rule away and nothing else. Thats the only part of their personality effected. So if goku acts a certain way, then he acts that way in a death battle, unless it includes not being willing to kill. Its like saying the doom/vader fight was stupid because doom used a bot to start things off with instead of going right for the full power kill. Or really, ANY fight where there are power levels and the character doesnt start at peak.

That's pretty... sketchy to me. They're very inconsistent in considering the deeper character traits of their combatants even when it would meaningfully determine how they'd approach the fight.

For instance, Beast, a categorical genius who's the peer of the like of Reed Richards and Tony Stark... pretty much just growls and punches/swipes a lot in his Death Battle. While I won't claim DB got his fight with Goliath "wrong", but it did rather ignore a significant aspect of Dr. Henry McCoy's character for the sake of... I don't know, appearing unbiased by giving him too much freedom?

Or Gaara, an exceptionally cautious and restrained character - that contrasts completely with Naruto - who uses his techniques to maintain his distance and evaluate his enemies before methodically engaging, and went through a fairly long character arc... just kind of throws sand around dumbly while spouting cringe-worthy dialogue in his Death Battle.

Point being, either character matters or it doesn't.

[Rater202]

But didn't someone say Ultra Instinct lets Goku basically power up as needed mid-combat? Like training on steroids?

Ultra instinct is a state of being that can only assume by the most masterful of martial artists wearing one's skill reaches a point where it trancends instinct and reflexes--the most accurate translation of the original Japanese characters it's written with would be "The art of the body moving on it's own."

Simply put, once someone has mastered Ultra instinct, they don't have to perceive or think while in combat, they just sort of fight perfectly automatically and will automatically and instantly adapt in both power and skill to fight any opponent.

In the initial level, If it is even remotely possible that you could have seen an attack coming, your body will automatically and perfectly move to counter, block, dodge, parry, or negate the attack as though you had.(However, it won't protect you from things that you couldn't have reacted to in time, such as Goku biting Whis while grappling, nor is the understanding of the environment perfect as while Whis was able to perfectly avoid Goku and Vegeta while training them, his passive UI dind't prevent him from stepping in poop the second the fight was over)

Once UI is MAstered, the same applies to making perfect attacks.

Goku enters Ultra Instinct through a transformation, which happens automatically when he's pushed past his limits and, per Whis, an expert, Goku shatters all of the limitations on his own power while in this state, and even in it's initial, unmastered State, Goku's power is both stated and demonstrated to skyrocket while fighting opponents who were of a much greater power than he was right before he entered that state(Some of which is retained when he reverts to his base form). The transformation also grants him a power multiplyer greater than 20 times Super Saiyan Blue, with the mastered version being even greater still.

[Blackhawk748]

Ultra instinct is a state of being that can only assume by the most masterful of martial artists wearing one's skill reaches a point where it trancends instinct and reflexes--the most accurate translation of the original Japanese characters it's written with would be "The art of the body moving on it's own."

Simply put, once someone has mastered Ultra instinct, they don't have to perceive or think while in combat, they just sort of fight perfectly automatically and will automatically and instantly adapt in both power and skill to fight any opponent.

To simplify this even more (if you understand Exalted) its basically Perfect Offense and Perfect Defense

[Anteros]

I don't believe that adapting in skill and power is a confirmed aspect of Ultra Instinct. I do believe that it simply allows a fighter to fight to the absolute best of their ability, and always make the correct move for any given situation without thinking. It should still be possible to overcome it given a large enough difference in power.

It's my understanding that the other interpretation where the form grants unlimited power is based off a few vague statements about "breaking limits" or whatnot...which I don't find to be sufficient evidence to support the claims.

The whole narrative argument is pointless and both sides' arguments are similarly (in)valid. That's why we normally ignore it for the sake of these discussions. Except DB didn't for this particular battle for some reason.