Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Dragonus45]

And this, is why I don’t read the marvel comics anymore.

[Rater202]

...you don't read marvel because Bad Guys are hard to kill?

Because a guy whose schtick is "slasher movie villain" gets harder to defeat every time he comes back like every Slasher Killer does?

[Forum Explorer]

If they pick and Choose the strongest feats from both, then Carol's invincible as long as she sees the attack coming and has a chance to brace for it.

But this is Death Battles, where they're known to ignore feats that would contradict the victory they decided on.

I was recently reminded of the Lucy/Carnage fight, where they ignored that Carnage has ESP, hadn't been vulnerable to fire or vibrations for well over a year by the time they announced the video, and that Carnage canonically contained a bomb big enough to have a worldwide fallout within his body and survived that before he lost his weakness to heat and vibration.

I don't know the exact number, but worldwide fallout would require an explosion significantly larger than that of the Tsar Bomb, which was 50 megatons.

Which is 1612.9 times as strong as what they claimed Lucy's explosion would be. Carnage survived a boom that must have been hundreds of thousands of times Lucy's at a bare minimum and then lost his special vulnerability to the things that make big booms dangerous--they're just regular damage now.

Using information available to DB at the time of the episode, Lucy's finisher wouldn't have meaningfully harmed Carnage.

That episode should have been five hours of Lucy ineffectively tearing Carnage apart again and again until either she got tired and Carnage got a hit in or Carnage rage-quit and left.

We did go over most of that. Like I don't know if Carnage's ESP would've done anything because Lucy's vectors don't move in lines, but more like, well arms, and thus can change direction in mid flight. Unless Carnage is literally invincible or has infinite regen, Lucy can output the power needed to destroy him because she is literally a threat to the planet. It would take her seconds to shatter a city if she wanted, for example. And that bomb is a bad example all around, because bombs are really bad dispersal methods for bio-weapons. Too much heat and force in the explosion will destroy the payload. So the explosion couldn't have been as strong as a conventional bomb or else the plague part of the weapon wouldn't work properly.

Meanwhile Carnage can't even reach Lucy. Because Lucy's range is measure on a continental scale and Carnage has no way to close the gap. Lucy can also build distance super easily by just 'standing' on her vectors'.

I mean, they even sorta address your point about vulnerability. They say Lucy is outputting enough heat and force to incinerate Carnage, and that's before they took the vulnerability into account.

[Dragonus45]

No I don’t read marvel anymore because of things like Carol Danvers the though crime enforcing fascist or Captain Hydra the literal worst decision made in comic books in the last decade.

[Rater202]

We did go over most of that. Like I don't know if Carnage's ESP would've done anything because Lucy's vectors don't move in lines, but more like, well arms, and thus can change direction in mid flight. Unless Carnage is literally invincible or has infinite regen, Lucy can output the power needed to destroy him because she is literally a threat to the planet. It would take her seconds to shatter a city if she wanted, for example. And that bomb is a bad example all around, because bombs are really bad dispersal methods for bio-weapons. Too much heat and force in the explosion will destroy the payload. So the explosion couldn't have been as strong as a conventional bomb or else the plague part of the weapon wouldn't work properly.

Meanwhile, Carnage can't even reach Lucy. Because Lucy's range is measured on a continental scale and Carnage has no way to close the gap. Lucy can also build distance super easily by just 'standing' on her vectors'.

I mean, they even sorta address your point about vulnerability. They say Lucy is outputting enough heat and force to incinerate Carnage, and that's before they took the vulnerability into account.

Carnage's ESP works like Spider-Sense: He just knows where danger is.

On the Gene Bomb: the High Evolutionary Once attempted to use a Bomb to disperse a biological agent of his own, albeit one that would force people into more evolved forms rather than kill them, worldwide. An Issue of Marvel What-If established that yes, the bomb would have worked.

Furthermore, the Gene Bomb was Apocolypse Tech, which is to say it's either Celestial Tech(and therefore the domain of reality warping space-gods)or derived from the Techno-Organic Virus. There's a non zero chance that the "plague" in question is actually nano-bots rather than a biological agent and a greater than average chance that it's high-order bullcrap.

Thus we have a precedent for treating it as a normal bomb.

To disperse things worldwide, it would have to be a bomb far more powerful than any ever detonated IRL. So, for the remainder of this discussion, I'll be using the biggest bomb on record.

The largest bomb ever detonated, the Tsar Bomba, was a fifty MEgaton, which is to say that it was the equivalent of fifty million tons of TNT.

That comes up to about 217,997,937,672,094.9375 degrees Fahrenheit in terms of the heat of the blast.

Compare this to the 31,000 tons of TNT and 180,000 degrees Fahrenheit that DB calculated for Lucy's finisher.

The Tsar Bomba was 1,211,099,653.73 times as hot as Lucy's finisher.

And Carnage successfully contained and survived a blast that would logically have to have been significantly bigger and hotter than the Tsar Bomba.

Before losing his weakness to heat and vibration.

Lucy's finisher shouldn't have done crap.

[Forum Explorer]

Carnage's ESP works like Spider-Sense: He just knows where danger is.

On the Gene Bomb: the High Evolutionary Once attempted to use a Bomb to disperse a biological agent of his own, albeit one that would force people into more evolved forms rather than kill them, worldwide. An Issue of Marvel What-If established that yes, the bomb would have worked.

Furthermore, the Gene Bomb was Apocolypse Tech, which is to say it's either Celestial Tech(and therefore the domain of reality warping space-gods)or derived from the Techno-Organic Virus. There's a non zero chance that the "plague" in question is actually nano-bots rather than a biological agent and a greater than average chance that it's high-order bullcrap.

Thus we have a precedent for treating it as a normal bomb.

To disperse things worldwide, it would have to be a bomb far more powerful than any ever detonated IRL. So, for the remainder of this discussion, I'll be using the biggest bomb on record.

The largest bomb ever detonated, the Tsar Bomba, was a fifty MEgaton, which is to say that it was the equivalent of fifty million tons of TNT.

That comes up to about 217,997,937,672,094.9375 degrees Fahrenheit in terms of the heat of the blast.

Compare this to the 31,000 tons of TNT and 180,000 degrees Fahrenheit that DB calculated for Lucy's finisher.

The Tsar Bomba was 1,211,099,653.73 times as hot as Lucy's finisher.

And Carnage successfully contained and survived a blast that would logically have to have been significantly bigger and hotter than the Tsar Bomba.

Before losing his weakness to heat and vibration.

Lucy's finisher shouldn't have done crap.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mean it doesn't help to know where the danger is because the attacks are effectively homing. You dodge, and the Vectors change direction to compensate. If you can move faster or as fast as the Vectors that would help, but the Vectors are faster, if not as fast as they said in the DB. I don't like the reaching into space to monologue comparison, but she did reach a battleship while it was launching a missile to intercept the missile before it could fire, while she was on shore in a lighthouse.


If anything, all of that says we have even more reason to not treat it as a normal bomb.

EDIT: I'll expand on what I mean. The reason we explode things is not as a dispersal device. We do it to either destroy something, or kill someone. Basically speaking. So if the purpose of a device is to kill all non-mutants, so any explosion is effectively inefficient. The payload isn't the explosion, the explosion is the side effect if that makes sense. If technology is even more advanced, then that just makes it more and more likely that it will either a different method then an explosion (which, to reiterate, is a really bad way to disperse anything), but doing something funky like shooting it out of portals or something.


EDIT 2: Basically there's enough questions about the bio-bomb that I would say it's force couldn't be calculated. It's not an outlier so much as there are a bunch of unexplained factors that make any calculation inadmissible. So you just go to the next highest damage feat and use that instead. Which should give you a pretty accurate and similar result, but this being comics, that could mean you go all the way from tanking supernovas to tanking nukes.

[Traab]

I dont think spider sense is that precise. Its like a screaming klaxxon going "DANGER! From THAT direction!" But its not precise enough to say, "Danger, from that direction! On course to hit between your third and fourth rib, 4.34902 inches from your sternum", especially for invisible attacks that can change direction on a dime.

[Rater202]

I dont think spider sense is that precise. Its like a screaming klaxxon going "DANGER! From THAT direction!" But its not precise enough to say, "Danger, from that direction! On course to hit between your third and fourth rib, 4.34902 inches from your sternum", especially for invisible attacks that can change direction on a dime.

It gets depicted as the first in adaptions, but in the original comics, it's very precise.

He doesn't have a receiver for his spider-tracers. He just uses Spider-Sense.

When fighting, the combination of super-human reflexes and spider-sense means that spidey's body is basically moving on its own--that thing that Son Goku needs Godly power, a big enough PL to shake the void between universes, and a taxing transformation that he can only enter when pushed to his physical limits is Spidey's natural state of being.

Symbiote ESP isn't quite on that level, but it's enough to fake it--ESP is how the Klyntar perceive the world and Venom and its descendants have it especially strong from Spider-Man's DNA(though they lack the mystical connection to the Great Web needed for true Spider-sense)

If the Vectors have a physical presence, then Cletus might not of seen them but his Symbiote at least would have known where they were and when to dodge.

[Frozen_Feet]

Spiderman's spider sense has been overwhelmed by trickery, by objects moving too fast to dodge, and by there being too many objects to dodge.

I can't be arsed to browse through my 20-year-old magazines to find the exact issue, but to give an example, a villain with gravity powera fooled Spidey into jumping by throwing a chimney at him, and then when Spidey was in mid-air, struck him with another attack.

Lucy would be able to overcome such a sense just by spamming vectors.

[Traab]

It gets depicted as the first in adaptions, but in the original comics, it's very precise.

He doesn't have a receiver for his spider-tracers. He just uses Spider-Sense.

When fighting, the combination of super-human reflexes and spider-sense means that spidey's body is basically moving on its own--that thing that Son Goku needs Godly power, a big enough PL to shake the void between universes, and a taxing transformation that he can only enter when pushed to his physical limits is Spidey's natural state of being.

Symbiote ESP isn't quite on that level, but it's enough to fake it--ESP is how the Klyntar perceive the world and Venom and its descendants have it especially strong from Spider-Man's DNA(though they lack the mystical connection to the Great Web needed for true Spider-sense)

If the Vectors have a physical presence, then Cletus might not of seen them but his Symbiote at least would have known where they were and when to dodge.

But spiderman also has been taken by surprise on many many MANY occasions. He can sense incoming danger, but not always in time to figure out what it is and how to react. Just because he knows a danger is coming in from a certain direction doesnt mean he automatically knows what it is and what he needs to do to protect himself. Its not a perfect defense.

[Rater202]

But spiderman also has been taken by surprise on many many MANY occasions. He can sense incoming danger, but not always in time to figure out what it is and how to react. Just because he knows a danger is coming in from a certain direction doesnt mean he automatically knows what it is and what he needs to do to protect himself. Its not a perfect defense.

Not the point.

DB acted like Carnage wouldn't be able to sense the vectors at all.

By all means, even if he couldn't see them they should have shown up on his ESP--his Symbiote would have been able to perceive them and sense that they were dangerous and share this with Cletus in less time than it takes to think.

[Forum Explorer]

Not the point.

DB acted like Carnage wouldn't be able to sense the vectors at all.

By all means, even if he couldn't see them they should have shown up on his ESP--his Symbiote would have been able to perceive them and sense that they were dangerous and share this with Cletus in less time than it takes to think.

Give DB some credit. They didn't say Carnage couldn't sense the vectors, they just put the vectors at such a high speed that they were impossible to dodge.

[Traab]

Not the point.

DB acted like Carnage wouldn't be able to sense the vectors at all.

By all means, even if he couldn't see them they should have shown up on his ESP--his Symbiote would have been able to perceive them and sense that they were dangerous and share this with Cletus in less time than it takes to think.

Oh is that what they did? My bad, its been awhile since I watched that one. I was just objecting to the idea that spider sense would be some sort of perfect defense for absurdly fast invisible attacks that can change direction at will. It certainly would help though.

[Rater202]

Give DB some credit. They didn't say Carnage couldn't sense the vectors, they just put the vectors at such a high speed that they were impossible to dodge.

Unless you want to make the argument that Lucy's vectors can move faster than the speed of sound, I don't think Carnage wouldn't be able to dodge them at all.

Spider-Man can dodge automatic gunfire on a good day and Carnage was estimated to be about 9 times Spider-Man in all physical attributes the last time his powers were measured officially

[woweedd]

If DB thinks Carol would lose to android 18, I don't see how they can possibly argue she can beat someone on Superman's tier since they're so convinced that superman >>> Goku.

Then again, it wouldn't be the first time they've contradicted themselves or used faulty logic.

A. Has Cap actually WON against Supes? He can trade blows with him, certainly, but then, so can Batman under certain circumstances. B. As characters ranging from Bats himself to The Doctor can tell you,just because one character can beat another in a canon fight doesn't NECESSARILY mean they're of equivalent power, as both of them, along with many others, have taken down god-level beings through intellect and planning, in spite of being relatively unimpressive power-wise. The idea that "X beat Y, and Y could beat Z, therefore X could beat Z" isn't as logically sound as it appears.

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I’m disappointed that they are doing a Captain Marvel be Captain Marvel brawl and going with Carol for the fight. She already got her death battle. This is like when Batman lost so they gave him a rematch and let him win to keep people happy, only it’s also tossing out Mar-vel from what by all rights should he his fight. As it is Carol probably wins because Marvel has been trying really hard to put her over and she has had her kinetic abortion played up to the point of absurdity, and Shazam’s magical lightning haymaker would probably also get absorbed even though I think it’s magical bull**** and I’m not sure if Carol can eat magic or not.

As I understand it, the Batman VS Cap fight was one of the episodes they had saved in reserve for a situation where they couldn't make a new one on schedule, as happened when Ben Singer's hard drive got fried shortly before Gamera VS Godzilla, forcing them to reanimate Tigerzord VS Gundam from scratch. As such, it was made about a year in advance, and, thus, couldn't really be what you're saying.

[Traab]

Unless you want to make the argument that Lucy's vectors can move faster than the speed of sound, I don't think Carnage wouldn't be able to dodge them at all.

Spider-Man can dodge automatic gunfire on a good day and Carnage was estimated to be about 9 times Spider-Man in all physical attributes the last time his powers were measured officially

They gave her a vector speed feat of roughly 1900 mph. something like mach 2.5. And she can control at least 28 at once. Again, they are able to move however she wants them to so unlike bullets, which are straight line only, these things will constantly be moving to corral and carve up carnage. The fact they can be as wide as buildings is also an issue when it comes to dodging.

[Rynjin]

Unless you want to make the argument that Lucy's vectors can move faster than the speed of sound, I don't think Carnage wouldn't be able to dodge them at all.

Spider-Man can dodge automatic gunfire on a good day and Carnage was estimated to be about 9 times Spider-Man in all physical attributes the last time his powers were measured officially

Been a while since I've seen Elfen Lied but I'm pretty sure they state the vectors move significantly faster than the speed of sound as early as the first episode.

[Anteros]

Unless you want to make the argument that Lucy's vectors can move faster than the speed of sound, I don't think Carnage wouldn't be able to dodge them at all.

Spider-Man can dodge automatic gunfire on a good day and Carnage was estimated to be about 9 times Spider-Man in all physical attributes the last time his powers were measured officially

Pretty funny how Spidey thrashes him 100% of the time they fight then.

[Otomodachi]

A. Has Cap actually WON against Supes? He can trade blows with him, certainly, but then, so can Batman under certain circumstances.

So I really only remember 1.5 Captain Marvel vs. Superman fights. 2.5 if you count the one from JL cartoons, and that's just a watered down version of another one.

The .5 is a hazy memory of... some self-contained hardover TPB that was the whole DC universe reacting to... some... global threat. It was all done in a nice, classical/retro art style. I think a lot of children got kidnapped for some reason, a ton of superheroes got mind-controlled and I'm pretty sure Supes and Billy threw down, can't remember who was mind-controlled (my money is in Supes). Not that useful but maybe someone who owns it will have their memory jogged and report in.

The other fight I remember is during the Batman vs Superman run where Lex Luthor became president. As I remember...

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Billy had the mindset that the President is the President and he swore to serve the office, so he had to try to bring Superman in for justice. Supes and Billy throw down, and they're pretty even until Billy gets Supes close enough to Shazam-bolt him several times, and that brings Supes down (who then proceeds to convince Billy that Lex Luthor is... wait for it... A BAD GUY.)

Full disclosure, that specific fight has been kinda aped in several different animated formats at this point so my memory might be muddied by that. My vague background impression from my DC reading though leaves me thinking that Billy and Supes are pretty evenly matched, and it depends on who's more motivated to fight "dirty" (for a boy scout at least) and also who's comic they're appearing in.

[Forum Explorer]

Unless you want to make the argument that Lucy's vectors can move faster than the speed of sound, I don't think Carnage wouldn't be able to dodge them at all.

Spider-Man can dodge automatic gunfire on a good day and Carnage was estimated to be about 9 times Spider-Man in all physical attributes the last time his powers were measured officially

They move way faster than the speed of sound. Like they actually point out in the video, Lucy stopped a bullet from hitting her heart, after it had already broken the skin.

Also the vectors can be the size of buildings which always makes dodging problematic. It doesn't matter if you see it coming if there is nowhere to dodge to.

I won't claim to be an expert on Carnage, I'm only passingly familiar with him, since I only read a couple Spiderman storylines involving him. But he's not a complete unknown either.

I am pretty familiar with Lucy. Elven Lied was something I followed pretty diligently when it was being released, and it was one of the first manga series I read. And from what I know of both combatants? DB may have gotten a couple technical details wrong, but their end result was spot on. Lucy's endpoint damage is ludicrous and she is fully capable of tearing Carnage apart of a cellular level. Because she did the opposite. When the person she loved was shot, she actually rebuilt his blood and flesh on a cellular level to save his life, though that was a major factor in causing her meltdown.

[woweedd]

So I really only remember 1.5 Captain Marvel vs. Superman fights. 2.5 if you count the one from JL cartoons, and that's just a watered down version of another one.

The .5 is a hazy memory of... some self-contained hardover TPB that was the whole DC universe reacting to... some... global threat. It was all done in a nice, classical/retro art style. I think a lot of children got kidnapped for some reason, a ton of superheroes got mind-controlled and I'm pretty sure Supes and Billy threw down, can't remember who was mind-controlled (my money is in Supes). Not that useful but maybe someone who owns it will have their memory jogged and report in.

The other fight I remember is during the Batman vs Superman run where Lex Luthor became president. As I remember...

Spoiler

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Billy had the mindset that the President is the President and he swore to serve the office, so he had to try to bring Superman in for justice. Supes and Billy throw down, and they're pretty even until Billy gets Supes close enough to Shazam-bolt him several times, and that brings Supes down (who then proceeds to convince Billy that Lex Luthor is... wait for it... A BAD GUY.)

Full disclosure, that specific fight has been kinda aped in several different animated formats at this point so my memory might be muddied by that. My vague background impression from my DC reading though leaves me thinking that Billy and Supes are pretty evenly matched, and it depends on who's more motivated to fight "dirty" (for a boy scout at least) and also who's comic they're appearing in.

Fair, although Cap doesn’t have anywhere near Clark’s level of feats, Post-Crisis. If Carol wins, i’m pretty sure I know how: Energy absorption and/or taking advantage of Billy’s greatest weakness: his transformation. Billy has a bad habit of using his lightning as an attack. If she can bait him into getting reckless, or, better yet, channel it herself, she can get him to turn back into Billy Batson, at which point he’s screwed.

[Otomodachi]

Fair, although Cap doesn’t have anywhere near Clark’s level of feats, Post-Crisis. If Carol wins, i’m pretty sure I know how: Energy absorption and/or taking advantage of Billy’s greatest weakness: his transformation. Billy has a bad habit of using his lightning as an attack. If she can bait him into getting reckless, or, better yet, channel it herself, she can get him to turn back into Billy Batson, at which point he’s screwed.

Yeah, I agree. I think in terms of physical presence and energy output vs. absorption they're dead even... but at the end of the day, a kid with the wisdom of Solomon is still a kid, and Carol's trained as all hell. I'll take the experienced veteran over the gifted prodigy if all else is equal, and IN MY MEMORY at least, Billy never really lost his childlike qualities.

Honestly it'd be kinda creepy of Shazam if Billy's mentality DID change a bunch by getting his powers, IMO.

[Traab]

Yeah, I agree. I think in terms of physical presence and energy output vs. absorption they're dead even... but at the end of the day, a kid with the wisdom of Solomon is still a kid, and Carol's trained as all hell. I'll take the experienced veteran over the gifted prodigy if all else is equal, and IN MY MEMORY at least, Billy never really lost his childlike qualities.

Honestly it'd be kinda creepy of Shazam if Billy's mentality DID change a bunch by getting his powers, IMO.

You know, I would be interested in a theoretical work by a psychologist who takes a look at billy batson as a character, then theorizes what downloading the wisdom of solomon into his head would cause. Because it WOULD change him in at least some ways. And thats just changes from the mental boost, his physical boosts would also probably cause all sorts of changes in his personality and behavior.

[Otomodachi]

You know, I would be interested in a theoretical work by a psychologist who takes a look at billy batson as a character, then theorizes what downloading the wisdom of solomon into his head would cause. Because it WOULD change him in at least some ways. And thats just changes from the mental boost, his physical boosts would also probably cause all sorts of changes in his personality and behavior.

Yeah, there's probably a good 4 part mini in there for someone who likes psychological storytelling like that. Grant Morrison could probably do something with it, although he also might just drop a bunch of acid and go off the deep end for 3 issues, too. (Further thinking and I realize this is basically with the Flex Mentallo mini was, isn't it?)

Like, if there was immediate and contrary personality changes after Billy's first encounter with Shazam, I don't know how anyone could not get cringed out by the implied mind control. It quickly becomes a VERY different story, not necessarily the one I want. It's all the light-hearted golden age stuff that makes me LIKE the Marvel family, they were dropping in talking animals and fire-breathing dragons WAY after it was cool.

If anyone cares, Justice is that other comic I was trying to remember where I am pretty sure Supes and Billy fight. Rereading it now, all I 100% remember is really enjoying it the first time.

EDIT: Nope, no Supes vs. Billy there. Maybe I'm thinking of Kingdom Come.

[Rater202]

Pretty funny how Spidey thrashes him 100% of the time they fight then.

Spider-Man has never defeated Carnage without help.

Usually, he has to team up with Venom(who is almost as strong as Carnage on a good day, so Spidey+Venom can match him,) but during Maximum Carnage(which is a bad storyline, but bear with me,) he needed Venom, Firestar, Black Cat, Cloak & Dagger, Iron Fist, Deathlok, Nightwatch, Morbius, and Captain America's help(though to be fair, Carnage was working with Shriek, Doppelganger, Carrion, and Demogoblin at the time, but they're all C-Listers who go down easy, Carnage was the main threat.)

Carnage #1 required the combined efforts of Spider-Man, Iron Man, and a Scorn, a nominally more powerful Symbiote equipped with nanobots and biomechanical weapons.

Carnage USA was Captain America, Hawkeye, Spider-Man, Wolverine, and the Thing being deployed to fight Carnage and they picked up Agent Venom, Scorn, and the Mercury Team--Three Highly Trained US Soldiers and a Combat Dog all bonded to four of Carnage's less evil siblings.

Minimum Carnage was Agent Venom and Kane(Spider-Man's stronger clone. Kane was the Avatar of The Other at the time so he was even stronger than normal) and they still only barely won. Notably, Kane lobotomizing Cletus with a venom-stinger made Carnage more dangerous, not less, and regardless he got better by the end of Superior Carnage.

Deadpool vs Carnage was Deadpool and the Mercury Team, with the Mercury Team all being killed in the process and Deadpool only winning because he managed to stomp all over a button that made Cletus shut down emotionally for a while.

Carnage Volume 2(WhereCarnage gets his dark-magic enhancements) was Man-Wolf, Toxin(Carnage's offspring) an FBI team trained to fight Symbiotes with anti-symbiote weaponry, and they still needed a Deus ex Machina in the form of one of Carnage's Magically enhanced offspring deciding not to be evil(the host was good) and whooping his but with magic after eating Toxin and their third sibling for a power boost.

Go Down Swinging wasn't Carnage specifically, but Spider-Man's response to larning that Norman Osborn was wearing the Carnage Symbiote(in an encounter that left Spider-Man with a broken leg and a warning to disappear lest Peter Parker's loved ones be hunted down and slaughtered,) was to call in favors from the Human Torch, Silk, Clash, the Other Spider-Man, and Anti-Venom and it wasn't enough. Venom, MJ using an Iron Man Glove to defend herself(She was working for Tony Stark at the time,) J. Jonah Jameson using a Spider-Slayer," and Doc Ock(who has a younger body and Spider-Powers becuase complicated reasons I don't have time to explain) showing up wasn't enough. Peter willingly bonding with the VenomSymbiote again wasn't enough. Peter had to play to Norman's Ego to get him to give up the Carnage symbiote to win.

Now that Cletus is back with his symbiote, stronger than ever, Eddie Brock, as Venom, broke down panicking when he realized he might have to fight Carnage by himself. Granted, Eddie's not in a good place right now and the venom symbiote's likewise, but...

Carnage is not a Solo threat. Is what I'm getting at. Every major appearance has involved at least two people who have to be on Carnage's level or stronger.

[woweedd]

Yeah, there's probably a good 4 part mini in there for someone who likes psychological storytelling like that. Grant Morrison could probably do something with it, although he also might just drop a bunch of acid and go off the deep end for 3 issues, too. (Further thinking and I realize this is basically with the Flex Mentallo mini was, isn't it?)

Like, if there was immediate and contrary personality changes after Billy's first encounter with Shazam, I don't know how anyone could not get cringed out by the implied mind control. It quickly becomes a VERY different story, not necessarily the one I want. It's all the light-hearted golden age stuff that makes me LIKE the Marvel family, they were dropping in talking animals and fire-breathing dragons WAY after it was cool.

If anyone cares, Justice is that other comic I was trying to remember where I am pretty sure Supes and Billy fight. Rereading it now, all I 100% remember is really enjoying it the first time.

EDIT: Nope, no Supes vs. Billy there. Maybe I'm thinking of Kingdom Come.

If it's Superman: Distant Fires, I kill.

[Otomodachi]

If it's Superman: Distant Fires, I kill.

Nope, haven't read that one... it LOOKS intriguing, is it any good? Billy Batson as an antagonist and Joker as a supporting character in a post-nuclear-apocalypse sounds wicked hella interesting.

[woweedd]

Nope, haven't read that one... it LOOKS intriguing, is it any good? Billy Batson as an antagonist and Joker as a supporting character in a post-nuclear-apocalypse sounds wicked hella interesting.

It isn't. It depicts Billy as a whiny idiot, to start.

[The Jack]

Carnage sounds like a BS character from what I'm reading here.

[Rater202]

Carnage sounds like a BS character from what I'm reading here.

Carnage is basically a Slasher Movie Villain.

You can't kill Jason, you can only hit him till he stops getting back up.

Michael Myers will always be back next Halloween.

The Creeper's eaten far too many hearts for his to ever stop.

Etcetera, etcetera.

Carnage is cut from the same mold. You need a lot to put him down. Often a lot more than you think you'll need. And there will be blood. And he'll be harder to put down the next time.