Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Forum Explorer]

In several iterations of Ben hes moved past the point of needing that. Including the timeline that its revealed that hes part alien.

Is it wrong that I immediately got South Park flashbacks to the episode where Cartman discovers that his dad is actually his mom?

[Traab]

Is it wrong that I immediately got South Park flashbacks to the episode where Cartman discovers that his dad is actually his mom?

Yes, yes it is. Also im pretty sure everyone in that series but grandpa max is part alien at some point or another. And im not sure about him.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, yes it is. Also im pretty sure everyone in that series but grandpa max is part alien at some point or another. And im not sure about him.

sounds like my apathy towards the early series saved me from caring about the apparent time travel/alien ancestry weirdness that people say it turned into.

[Keltest]

sounds like my apathy towards the early series saved me from caring about the apparent time travel/alien ancestry weirdness that people say it turned into.

Im of the opinion that anything beyond the original show stopped being worth watching. The first season of the second show wasn't bad, but it wasn't really true to the spirit of the original either.

[Rater202]

On Ben being part Alien: It's a bit more complicated than that.

Ben's grandma is an Anodite, which is to say, an energy being made entirely of Magic.

They're also one of the few races in the universe that doesn't have any form of genetic heritability. No way of passing on traits to the next generation. They have some means of reproduction, but...

Basically, Ben and his cousins are genetically pure human, but about 1/4th of their DNA is an energy construct instead of being made of actual biomatter.

Gwen has a strong advantage when learning magic(and after growing to a certain level of magical power is able to astral project into a form that's identical to an anodite with their grandmother claiming that it's only the existence of Gwen's physical body that prevents her from becoming a Full Anodite instead of a hybrid. Verdona, the grandmother, even tries to forcibly destroy Gwen's body early on on the justification that after a few years Gwen will be able to make another one--any kind she wants--early on when she finds out that Gwen's study of sorcery has led to her being so powerful, though she eventually concedes that it's Gwen's choice and that human body will break down eventually. She treats wanting to stay human like some silly phase)

One of Three possible Futur Ben's knows a little bit of Magic and a hyper-evolved combat form based on his DNA can plug other DNA into the 'blank spot' in his genes, but that's about it as far as being part alien goes for him.

On everyone else with powers--Cooper's a mutant, and while Alien Force and Ultimate Alien presented Kevin and the Plumber's kids as human/alien hybrids Omniverse retconned it that KEvin is a mutant(his original series backstory) and that a corrupt group of Plumbers called the Rooters did experiments on him to use the DNA absorbing powers Kevin has to turn themselves into Human/Alien Hybrids and the Plumbers Kids were the Test Subjects. All the evidence of human/alien hybrids up to an including Kevin's half-alien father(who doesn't exist) is the result of people being given false evicence to cover up the Rooters and Kevin's alleged species and home planet don't even exist.

Cosidering that Kevin killed a man who false memories indicated killed hi father, his father who never actually existed, you can understand that he didn't take things too well when he realized the truth. You know, among other reasons why finding out that like, half your memories are totally frabricated would mess you up.

On why Ben's gonna kick Green Lanter's Ass: It begins and Ends with Alien X.

Alien X is the name of Ben's Celestialsapien form. It is simultaneously his most powerful and his weakest form. Celestialsapiens are the most powerful race in the multiverse--they are actually originally from the Forge of creation, a plane of existence outside of any known universe.

It's only the existence of multible examples of the spcies that prevents them from being Omnipotent.

Alien X can warp reality at will... But every Celestialsapien has two diametrically opposed personalities who are constantly arguing and they must be in perfect agreement before they can do anything--up to and incuding even the smallest of movements. Ben becomes a Third personality when he becomes Alien X.

Alien X is completly indestructible--even when not actively trying to defend himself, Ben in this form is impervious to all harm up to and including being right next to an explosion that was literally big enough to destroy the entire universe so that not even subatomic dust remained.

Ben as Alien X was, after failing to convince the other two personalities to contain that blast, was able to completly restore the universe and bring everyone back to life with a single thought after convincing them to do that instead(Though he didn't get it exactly right--one specific flavor of smoothy from one specific chain restaurant is slightly off and Ben, being outside the universe when he restored it, is the only one who can tell.)

About halfway through Omniverse, Ben gets put on trial by the naturally born Celestial sapiens becuase recreating a universe without permission from the majority of Celestial sapiens is against intergalactic law.

Towards the end of that episode, we find out that the punishment for that is an easily affordable fine. Just as an example of how powerful the species is that such a thing is a casual offense.

One of the writers of the show stated that Ben as Alien X could destroy the entire multiverse with 6 thoughts.

a sword coated in a very thin layer of Celestial Sapien skin(Ben briefly has a symbiote that could form natural weapons based on its host's DNA and that synergized very well with the Omnitrix's genetic records) was able to cut through an otherwise indestructible forcefield.

Alien X is the only alien without a hard time limit. Alien X reverts to Ben when Alien X is good and ready, except for the one time that Professor PAradox(who can go anywhere in time and space) went inside Ben and pulled Ben himself out of Alien X(causing alien X to fizzle out of existence.)

Here's the kicker: In the same episode where Ben was on trial, he convinced the other two personalities--who cared more about arguing in peace than actually doing anything--to permanently surrender control of Alien X's body and powers to Ben and Ben alone. They have to manually hand over control each time, but from that episode on they do so willingly and automatically.

So at any time after that episode, OG Ben can become practically Omnipotent at will.

This isn't even a fair fight. If Ben's going all out with the intent to kill, as is the basic concept of this scenario, he wins.

Franklin Richards is basically the only possible fair matchup for Ben.

[Lord Raziere]

Im of the opinion that anything beyond the original show stopped being worth watching. The first season of the second show wasn't bad, but it wasn't really true to the spirit of the original either.

*glances at Raters explanation of the omnipotent aliens, turns back to Keltest*

....yeah, your probably right on that, and I didn't even stick around to watch the original all the way through.

honestly Alien X makes me wonder if the creator specifically designed that species just so that Ben 10 could win internet versus arguments forever as a form of one-upsmanship over other superheroes.

[Prime32]

I'm kind of disappointed they didn't put him up against Kamen Rider Decade, as a fellow "transform into 10 different heroes" guy (in a franchise where said powers are currently being stored in watches, no less). You could have duels like XLR8 vs Kabuto, Ghostfreak vs Ghost, Benwolf vs Kiva...

Plus he's drawing on the combined abilities of every protagonist in a series that's been ongoing since the 70s, featuring all kinds of time travel, reality warping, and powers that can only be countered by another user of the same power - given the way Death Battle works, they might decide he has enough to counter Alien X.

[Rater202]

*glances at Raters explanation of the omnipotent aliens, turns back to Keltest*

....yeah, your probably right on that, and I didn't even stick around to watch the original all the way through.

honestly, Alien X makes me wonder if the creator specifically designed that species just so that Ben 10 could win internet versus arguments forever as a form of one-upmanship over other superheroes.

The Show Runner who created Alien X died due to complications of Heart Surgery during Ultimate Alien.

The Show Runner for Omniverse changed a bunch of stuff from Dwayne's vision(including Retconning out an entire planet and implicitly the character that lived on it.)

Alien X was designed to be awesome but impractical--he can do anything, but Ben could rearely ever use him. Ben only used it twice in the UAF era.

It was only after the soft reboot from Omniverse that Ben started using Alien X anywhere near regularly.

[Celestia]

It depends on which version of GL they use. If its Hal, it's a huge stomp for Ben. Stewart and the others bar one is close, but they aren't as linear as hal so I assume they can fair better. Rayner(sic?) Should edge out Ben, due to him having far more ammo than other lanterns.

When it comes to characters with multiple versions, they tend to stick to either the original or the most iconic, though, they are usually the same. Thus, I'm betting that we're getting Hal.

[Reddish Mage]

The Show Runner who created Alien X died due to complications of Heart Surgery during Ultimate Alien.

The Show Runner for Omniverse changed a bunch of stuff from Dwayne's vision(including Retconning out an entire planet and implicitly the character that lived on it.)

Alien X was designed to be awesome but impractical--he can do anything, but Ben could rearely ever use him. Ben only used it twice in the UAF era.

It was only after the soft reboot from Omniverse that Ben started using Alien X anywhere near regularly.

I couldn’t stand Ben 10 after Alien Force but from what I know from there Alien X is practically omnipotent. I can’t imagine what a show is like if Alien X is a real option that can be pulled out without special circumstances.

Also, against an alien that can “destroy the multiverse” in “six thoughts” I’m not sure what can stand against it, outside of other godlike beings and we’re talking well beyond highfather level and more like creator beings.

[Devonix]

When it comes to characters with multiple versions, they tend to stick to either the original or the most iconic, though, they are usually the same. Thus, I'm betting that we're getting Hal.

Yeah OG Kyle Rayner as ION is the only Green Lantern that stands a chance. Not Retcon Icon but the Ion that was capable of recreating the universe.

[HolyDraconus]

When it comes to characters with multiple versions, they tend to stick to either the original or the most iconic, though, they are usually the same. Thus, I'm betting that we're getting Hal.

Eh, I been seeing John in more cartoons and movies than hal.

[Rater202]

I couldn’t stand Ben 10 after Alien Force but from what I know from there Alien X is practically omnipotent. I can’t imagine what a show is like if Alien X is a real option that can be pulled out without special circumstances.

Also, against an alien that can “destroy the multiverse” in “six thoughts,” I’m not sure what can stand against it, outside of other godlike beings and we’re talking well beyond highfather level and more like creator beings.

Death Battle seems to prefer thematic symmetry over fair fights. In this case, Normal humans with alien technology that turns them into high-level Supers with incredible versatility and an association with intergalactic Law Enforcement.

As for ALien X... It helps that Omniverse depicts Ben as being a bit on the stupid side competed to the UAF era.

In Alien Force and Ultimate Alien, Ben is depicted as being brilliant but lazy--he's remarkably intelligent, but academics bore him. He goofs off and acts childish as essentially a way of relieving the stress of being a teen superhero. Notably, when he applies himself he does very well--in Ultimate Alien her graduated in the top percentiles from the Plumber's Academy despite not even bothering to study.

Omniverse tends to make him act more childish for less reason and gives him trouble with things that he should have been able to do based on feats of intellect in the previous series.

[Celestia]

Eh, I been seeing John in more cartoons and movies than hal.

Really? That's odd. I'm pretty sure I only ever saw him in the 90s Justice League cartoon.

[HolyDraconus]

Really? That's odd. I'm pretty sure I only ever saw him in the 90s Justice League cartoon.

Call it bias then. But I didn't even know what gl was till the cartoons, and they originally showed John. Hell, in both crossover with batman beyond they featured John, and in the flash crossover hal only showed up cause time travel is bs.

[Rynjin]

Call it bias then. But I didn't even know what gl was till the cartoons, and they originally showed John. Hell, in both crossover with batman beyond they featured John, and in the flash crossover hal only showed up cause time travel is bs.

John is the official GL for the Dini/Timmverse for...some reason (not a knock on him, he was my intro to GL too and I love those shows, but I genuinely don't know why he was picked) but most other DC animated movies/shows don't feature him at all.

[Lemmy]

John is the official GL for the Dini/Timmverse for...some reason (not a knock on him, he was my intro to GL too and I love those shows, but I genuinely don't know why he was picked) but most other DC animated movies/shows don't feature him at all.

Diversity. Although probably not in the sh***y "we-gotta-have-a-black-character-or-the-outrage-mob-will-call-us-racist" way of nowadays. I think they genuinely just wanted more variety in their characters... Probably the same reason why they chose Hawk-girl instead of Hawk-man and made her "latina".

[Celestia]

John is the official GL for the Dini/Timmverse for...some reason (not a knock on him, he was my intro to GL too and I love those shows, but I genuinely don't know why he was picked) but most other DC animated movies/shows don't feature him at all.

I could be wrong, but I think John was the current GL in the comics at the time they were making the show.

[Devonix]

I could be wrong, but I think John was the current GL in the comics at the time they were making the show.

Naw John wasn't a Green Lantern during those years. He stopped being a Lantern in the late 80s and didn't become one again until 2005

The Justice League cartoon started in 2001 It's more that the popularity of John in the cartoon made DC bring him back as a Lantern in the comics I'd say.

[HolyDraconus]

Naw John wasn't a Green Lantern during those years. He stopped being a Lantern in the late 80s and didn't become one again until 2005

The Justice League cartoon started in 2001 It's more that the popularity of John in the cartoon made DC bring him back as a Lantern in the comics I'd say.

Well of the DC heroes, I liked him. I have em up there with O.G. static, not that 52 reboot nonsense, and he had no real lines in young justice.

[Reddish Mage]

Omniverse tends to make him act more childish for less reason and gives him trouble with things that he should have been able to do based on feats of intellect in the previous series.

The problem was Alien Force had Ben growing up and learning to be a leader over the first two seasons, and they were shedding viewers. So the studio decided to make him more like young Ben and then literally do a relaunch of young Ben.

It’s similar to the Spider-Man reboot of One More Day. They’ve left Alien Force Ben behind and see those sorts of stories as a mistake.

[Dragonus45]

The problem was Alien Force had Ben growing up and learning to be a leader over the first two seasons, and they were shedding viewers. So the studio decided to make him more like young Ben and then literally do a relaunch of young Ben.

It’s similar to the Spider-Man reboot of One More Day. They’ve left Alien Force Ben behind and see those sorts of stories as a mistake.

Which is a shame, the problem was never Ben maturing or growing it was just bad writing and cheap animation.

[Rater202]

There are a few comments I want to make regarding the Captain Marvel vs Shazam video that I never got around to.

1: Is there any actual indication that the "Lightning of Zeus" is Shazam literally channeling 100% of the power of Zeus?(Or, in general, that the X of Y is literal instead of a metaphor?) Because I'm gonna be honest unless its confirmed 100% that Shazam is literally tapping Zeus' power and can draw on 100% of it that it's dishonest to take Zeus's feats into account.

2: Likewise, he punched open a black hole when he was about 100 times his normal size. At bare minimum that means he was 100 times as strong--millions of times over if you're trying to be remotely realistic considering that one would need to be exponentially stronger and tougher compared to normal to be able to function at that size. Treating that as his normal strength is, again, a bit dishonest.

[Lemmy]

There are a few comments I want to make regarding the Captain Marvel vs Shazam video that I never got around to.

1: Is there any actual indication that the "Lightning of Zeus" is Shazam literally channeling 100% of the power of Zeus?(Or, in general, that the X of Y is literal instead of a metaphor?) Because I'm gonna be honest unless its confirmed 100% that Shazam is literally tapping Zeus' power and can draw on 100% of it that it's dishonest to take Zeus's feats into account.

2: Likewise, he punched open a black hole when he was about 100 times his normal size. At bare minimum that means he was 100 times as strong--millions of times over if you're trying to be remotely realistic considering that one would need to be exponentially stronger and tougher compared to normal to be able to function at that size. Treating that as his normal strength is, again, a bit dishonest.

Well... He helped Superman lift the book of infinity pages... By DB's "logic", that means he has infinity strength... Which means he's capable of producing infinity energy.

[Reddish Mage]

Which is a shame, the problem was never Ben maturing or growing it was just bad writing and cheap animation.

By that token Omniverse should have been canceled early on and Ben 10(2016) shouldn't exist.

[Keltest]

By that token Omniverse should have been canceled early on and Ben 10(2016) shouldn't exist.

From what I have seen of those shows, i'd say that's a fair assessment.

[Dragonus45]

By that token Omniverse should have been canceled early on and Ben 10(2016) shouldn't exist.

Pandering to the youngest end of your viewership, cutting production costs to the bone, and merchandising go a long way towards keeping a zombie franchise alive.

[Reddish Mage]

There are a few comments I want to make regarding the Captain Marvel vs Shazam video that I never got around to.

1: Is there any actual indication that the "Lightning of Zeus" is Shazam literally channeling 100% of the power of Zeus?(Or, in general, that the X of Y is literal instead of a metaphor?) Because I'm gonna be honest unless its confirmed 100% that Shazam is literally tapping Zeus' power and can draw on 100% of it that it's dishonest to take Zeus's feats into account.

2: Likewise, he punched open a black hole when he was about 100 times his normal size. At bare minimum that means he was 100 times as strong--millions of times over if you're trying to be remotely realistic considering that one would need to be exponentially stronger and tougher compared to normal to be able to function at that size. Treating that as his normal strength is, again, a bit dishonest.

This one is pretty fair. Moreover, Zeus's lightning power when together with lots of Gods may not be "1/1000th" of his strength, it could be the combination of multiple gods from multiple pantheons is exponentially greater or even on the level of a different reality or simply "incommensurable, incomprehensible" (gee why would a god's power be suggested to belong to orders of an entirely different scale of a greater reality...).

Meanwhile, for a normal person to be scaled upwards their own structural integrity and strength would have to grow exponentially to sustain the size (which is why a true giant human is physically impossible). Still, even an exponential reduction makes him strong enough.

I'm not saying Shazam's powers from the comics might not just be on the sort of scale. Its not hard to find places to show his strength and his lightning power can both KO or potentially even kill Superman. There's also other discussion I found on Shazam's ability to fight gods.

If he's really as great as all that he's definitely on the order they are suggesting he beats Captain Marvel, especially as her binary form is temporary.

[HolyDraconus]

This one is pretty fair. Moreover, Zeus's lightning power when together with lots of Gods may not be "1/1000th" of his strength, it could be the combination of multiple gods from multiple pantheons is exponentially greater or even on the level of a different reality or simply "incommensurable, incomprehensible" (gee why would a god's power be suggested to belong to orders of an entirely different scale of a greater reality...).

Meanwhile, for a normal person to be scaled upwards their own structural integrity and strength would have to grow exponentially to sustain the size (which is why a true giant human is physically impossible). Still, even an exponential reduction makes him strong enough.

I'm not saying Shazam's powers from the comics might not just be on the sort of scale. Its not hard to find places to show his strength and his lightning power can both KO or potentially even kill Superman. There's also other discussion I found on Shazam's ability to fight gods.

If he's really as great as all that he's definitely on the order they are suggesting he beats Captain Marvel, especially as her binary form is temporary.

They stated though that what really nailed it was the Knowledge though. He IS still a kid, and that perk gave him hax beyond belief. Imagine Superman having that garbage.

[Reddish Mage]

They stated though that what really nailed it was the Knowledge though. He IS still a kid, and that perk gave him hax beyond belief. Imagine Superman having that garbage.

Isn’t it more or less exactly Superman? Superman got all the collective knowledge of the universe downloaded into his cranium on his trip to Earth (in Christopher Reeve’s it’s in the Fortress). He occasionally uses his knowledge to do things like make robot Superman clones, create futuristic tech, hack other people’s tech, and so on. The Fortress if Solitude, among other things, is his laboratory.