OOTS #1119 - The Discussion Thread

[lcavalheiro]

Immediately shooting your own argument in the foot is an interesting debate tactic, I gotta say. I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Sometimes I can see my previous argument was wrong, and I can correct it. Don't hurt admitting being wrong sometimes, I suppose.

[Peelee]

Sometimes I can see my previous argument was wrong, and I can correct it. Don't hurt admitting being wrong sometimes, I suppose.

I have a tendency to be a bit too flippant for my own good; I apologize for that. What I mean was you asked if we could really discount Serini bluffing herself as her big defense mechanism, when you acknowledge that we already saw that with Girard. So I actually do discount Serini using a bluff in that way, since it would be repetitive with what Girard did. And would also be significantly worse, since Girard's bluff still had the Gate be incredibly heavily defended, while if Serini bluffed and it was under the statue, it would effectively be rather pointedly undefended.

[Ironsmith]

I have a tendency to be a bit too flippant for my own good; I apologize for that. What I mean was you asked if we could really discount Serini bluffing herself as her big defense mechanism, when you acknowledge that we already saw that with Girard. So I actually do discount Serini using a bluff in that way, since it would be repetitive with what Girard did. And would also be significantly worse, since Girard's bluff still had the Gate be incredibly heavily defended, while if Serini bluffed and it was under the statue, it would effectively be rather pointedly undefended.

Actually, what I'm thinking is that Serini's gone and integrated ideas from all her party members into protecting the gate.

I mean, think about it. The gate itself and the extra-dimensional stone seem like the kinds of things Dorukan would come up with. Nature helps protect the gate not only because it's freaking cold and nobody in their right mind would come up there by chance, but also via whatever mechanism is in place to keep the tomb populated... certainly sounds like Lyrian's idea. Girard relied on deception, and what we've seen of the tomb provides ripe opportunities for that. Kraagor's reliance on physical might would explain the basic mechanics of the tomb, and naturally, it's his tomb. About the only one who doesn't have an obvious hand in how it's built would be Soon... but, four out of five isn't a bad track record.

Plus, from a meta perspective, it makes a whole lot of sense. Take a gander at this and try to tell me it doesn't sound familiar.

[Peelee]

Actually, what I'm thinking is that Serini's gone and integrated ideas from all her party members into protecting the gate.

I mean, think about it. The gate itself and the extra-dimensional stone seem like the kinds of things Dorukan would come up with.

Right off the bat that fails, though, since the only correlation there is "magical material would interest a wizard who does magic." There was nothing at all like that in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and the only relationship is at best a very nebulous stretch.

[Fyraltari]

I second Ironsmith.

Edit: Though we haven't seen all the defenses yet, there may be better links to the other Scribblers inside.

[Peelee]

I second Ironsmith.

Edit: Though we haven't seen all the defenses yet, there may be better links to the other Scribblers inside.

Not saying he's wrong, just that the connections built so far don't support the conclusion.

[Ironsmith]

Right off the bat that fails, though, since the only correlation there is "magical material would interest a wizard who does magic." There was nothing at all like that in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and the only relationship is at best a very nebulous stretch.

Nothing that we saw. Let's not forget that Xykon had already conquered that dungeon by the time we saw any of it, and none of the party members would see fit to mention something like that, since they wouldn't have been nearly powerful enough to even know it was an obstacle.

Besides, if the idea of rocks that prevent a magical bypass doesn't sound wizard-y enough, there's also the fact that many monsters have spell-like abilities, and that with such a large and varied population, extensive study would be needed to make sure none of them wreaked unintended havok.

And just so it's clear, since I was probably too ambiguous in my last post; I'm not suggesting the other party members actually helped in building the tomb. What I'm suggesting is that Serini saw the highlights and integrated that into her dungeon's design. She did spend an extensive amount of time adventuring with them... is it too much of a stretch to suggest they may have rubbed off on her, to some degree?

[Shining Wrath]

Nothing that we saw. Let's not forget that Xykon had already conquered that dungeon by the time we saw any of it, and none of the party members would see fit to mention something like that, since they wouldn't have been nearly powerful enough to even know it was an obstacle.

Besides, if the idea of rocks that prevent a magical bypass doesn't sound wizard-y enough, there's also the fact that many monsters have spell-like abilities, and that with such a large and varied population, extensive study would be needed to make sure none of them wreaked unintended havok.

And just so it's clear, since I was probably too ambiguous in my last post; I'm not suggesting the other party members actually helped in building the tomb. What I'm suggesting is that Serini saw the highlights and integrated that into her dungeon's design. She did spend an extensive amount of time adventuring with them... is it too much of a stretch to suggest they may have rubbed off on her, to some degree?

The idea that a rogue would steal ideas from other people is scandalous, and I will not have it!
I still think Serini's dungeon needs to incorporate traps (her metier) as well as big monsters (for Kragor), and when the Gate is reached some sort of trap will be sprung.

[2D8HP]

I have a tendency to be a bit too flippant for my own good,

No you don't, your flippancy is good, true, beautiful, and proper.

...I apologize for that...

Now that is what's wrong!

I demand that you immediately apologize for apologizing.

[Ironsmith]

Something else I forgot about, but which still connects Sereni's gate/Kraagor's tomb back to Dorukan; the dungeon's basically a big hole full of monsters, right? Surely Dorukan never built anything like that...

[Peelee]

Nothing that we saw. Let's not forget that Xykon had already conquered that dungeon by the time we saw any of it, and none of the party members would see fit to mention something like that, since they wouldn't have been nearly powerful enough to even know it was an obstacle.

Besides, if the idea of rocks that prevent a magical bypass doesn't sound wizard-y enough, there's also the fact that many monsters have spell-like abilities, and that with such a large and varied population, extensive study would be needed to make sure none of them wreaked unintended havok.

And just so it's clear, since I was probably too ambiguous in my last post; I'm not suggesting the other party members actually helped in building the tomb. What I'm suggesting is that Serini saw the highlights and integrated that into her dungeon's design. She did spend an extensive amount of time adventuring with them... is it too much of a stretch to suggest they may have rubbed off on her, to some degree?

Imean, your entire premise is based on "magic things sound wizardy so that's a connection to Dorukan's Gate." Which is more than a little silly, since this is a high-magic world. Just because something is magical doesn't inherently mean it's wizardy, much less related to one specific Wizard. Were Soon's Oath-Spirits wizardy because they were magically anchored to the world? Were Girard's illusions wizardy because he shares a spell list with wizards? Sure, none of those things were used by Dorukan, but they sound wizardy enough. It's an incredibly tenuous connection, to the point that your main defense of it was that rocks that prevent a magical bypass "sound wizard-y."

[Ironsmith]

Imean, your entire premise is based on "magic things sound wizardy so that's a connection to Dorukan's Gate." Which is more than a little silly, since this is a high-magic world. Just because something is magical doesn't inherently mean it's wizardy, much less related to one specific Wizard. Were Soon's Oath-Spirits wizardy because they were magically anchored to the world? Were Girard's illusions wizardy because he shares a spell list with wizards? Sure, none of those things were used by Dorukan, but they sound wizardy enough. It's an incredibly tenuous connection, to the point that your main defense of it was that rocks that prevent a magical bypass "sound wizard-y."

In fairness, we've seen basically nothing of what Dorukan, specifically, made to defend his gate... a Cloister effect we learned about well after the gate fell, a magic seal, and a select few hackneyed monsters were about it; the rest was all Xykon. (And even the hackneyed monsters didn't seem to be there for the gate, specifically...) There's not a lot to connect back to.

[Peelee]

In fairness, we've seen basically nothing of what Dorukan, specifically, made to defend his gate... a Cloister effect we learned about well after the gate fell, a magic seal, and a select few hackneyed monsters were about it; the rest was all Xykon. (And even the hackneyed monsters didn't seem to be there for the gate, specifically...) There's not a lot to connect back to.

Which is an excellent reason to try to connect it to things we have seen a lot of. Like, for instance, Soon's Gate. Which, I also note, is the only one that you haven't brought any connection towards.

Also, the connections to Lirian's Gate is similarly thin, and the Girard's Gate connection is literally just a guess.

[georgie_leech]

Which is an excellent reason to try to connect it to things we have seen a lot of. Like, for instance, Soon's Gate. Which, I also note, is the only one that you haven't brought any connection towards.

Also, the connections to Lirian's Gate is similarly thin, and the Girard's Gate connection is literally just a guess.

I dunno, I'd be shocked if she didn't have some pretty intense protection from divination magic to keep you from just scrying and teleporting to the gate; heck, something similar to the Cloister effect could be directly used. Searching all of the desert for the real Gate is also similar to the (Dungeon)needle-in-a-(dungeon) haystack she has going. And ultimately the point of Nature defending Lirian's Gate, as a practical matter rather than ideological view, is that most of her defences will actively repel attackers without her direct intervention, in contrast to the others who had largely passive defences, with the active components being either the OotScribble itself or their related (heh) organizations.

Dunno about Soon yet, but then, we haven't seen anything of the dungeons or Serini's Gate itself. And it would be thematically resonant with the existing themes of cooperation and combining strengths being much more effective than everyone doing their own thing. See also: the current fight vs the recent airship debacle or the Battle for Azure City. In the latter case, they were each (mostly) individually effective, but the inability to support each other kept them from being able to properly shape the Battle. Like, how much more effective would V have been if Roy or Durkon or Belkar had been available to Enlarge and cleave through the opposing army? And how much better would Roy's suicidal attack have gone if he'd had someone to cast Fly handy?

[Ironsmith]

I dunno, I'd be shocked if she didn't have some pretty intense protection from divination magic to keep you from just scrying and teleporting to the gate; heck, something similar to the Cloister effect could be directly used. Searching all of the desert for the real Gate is also similar to the (Dungeon)needle-in-a-(dungeon) haystack she has going. And ultimately the point of Nature defending Lirian's Gate, as a practical matter rather than ideological view, is that most of her defences will actively repel attackers without her direct intervention, in contrast to the others who had largely passive defences, with the active components being either the OotScribble itself or their related (heh) organizations.

Dunno about Soon yet, but then, we haven't seen anything of the dungeons or Serini's Gate itself. And it would be thematically resonant with the existing themes of cooperation and combining strengths being much more effective than everyone doing their own thing. See also: the current fight vs the recent airship debacle or the Battle for Azure City. In the latter case, they were each (mostly) individually effective, but the inability to support each other kept them from being able to properly shape the Battle. Like, how much more effective would V have been if Roy or Durkon or Belkar had been available to Enlarge and cleave through the opposing army? And how much better would Roy's suicidal attack have gone if he'd had someone to cast Fly handy?

I think its also worth noting that, while we can't do much to link the tomb back to the other gates, what we know about Sereni points to her using this method. She was the one who mediated between the rest of the party, so it would make sense that she's ultimately neutral in regards to their ideal protective measures. Plus, unlike the others, in building her defenses, she wouldn't be burdened with trying to prove a point... Her first and only priority would be keeping the gate safe, rather than demonstrating the superiority of her position. And as a rogue, she would know better than anyone what the benefits of more methods of security would be. Best course of action? Use them all!

[Thurulian]

1) No.
2) Even if you could handwave three weeks, you cannot disappear two more weeks. Hel's scheme will be resolved by the end of tonight. The Sphinx Pox will not be a factor. Accept that or don't, but it's still a fact.

the virus was just for the sake of comedy and nothing more, but i like to speculate about things that is what these threads are for but thank you for your input.

[TRH]

I'm pretty sure in the next book we'll get some strip where the Sphinx Pox takes effect, but Durkon is able to fix it with Remove Disease. Since Thor couldn't stop Hel's priest from ending his storm, she wouldn't be able to stop Durkon curing her disease, nor any reason to (besides spite) with her plans foiled. Of course, curing everyone on the Mechane with a 3rd level spell each would be time-consuming, so we might get a funny montage where it takes a few days for him to treat everyone.

[Kish]

I think it's unlikely that Serini integrated all the Order of the Scribble's ideas because...thematically, I think 1) that would stop Xykon successfully, ending the story without the main characters being involved, and 2) if she could have done that she could have stopped them from breaking up at all.

(1 is stronger than 2, since a case can be made that being above the conflict between them is good enough.)

[Snails]

Full disclosure: For reasons entirely unrelated to the Gates, I'm rather hoping that, after making Haley a painfully stereotypical rogue who is a thief, Rich really is writing Serini as what her casual suggestion of taking a paladin level vaguely implies: a cheerful, friendly, entirely adventuring-oriented Lawful Good rogue.

I see Serini as a very friendly people person. In many ways, she is quite the contrast with Haley.

My guess would be Neutral Good, although any other flavor of Good is quite possible. And it would not be a stretch at all to make an Oath to Lawful Good that the gods would give the benefit of the doubt to an NG. I, too, do not think she was not entirely joking about taking a Paladin level.

Skill-wise, she demonstrates Diplomacy and Sense Motive. As for Bluff, we have no evidence of her ability to deceive. In fact, that Xykon seems to have found her journal and gleaned provably useful information is a significant blow to the idea of her as a trickster.

Aside: Girard seems to pride himself as a bit of a trickster. The anti-paladin trap, for one. The double bluff at the Gate may have only worked on Nale, Malack would have surely eventually figured it out, but it is a bluff attempt that costs very little.

[Snails]

I'm pretty sure in the next book we'll get some strip where the Sphinx Pox takes effect, but Durkon is able to fix it with Remove Disease. Since Thor couldn't stop Hel's priest from ending his storm, she wouldn't be able to stop Durkon curing her disease, nor any reason to (besides spite) with her plans foiled. Of course, curing everyone on the Mechane with a 3rd level spell each would be time-consuming, so we might get a funny montage where it takes a few days for him to treat everyone.

Taking the risk of depleting his spells, something Durkon would probably do to save someone's life, it would take ~1.5 days. He can use his 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell, which adds up to 19 Remove Disease spells per day.

[Snails]

I mean, think about it. The gate itself and the extra-dimensional stone seem like the kinds of things Dorukan would come up with. Nature helps protect the gate not only because it's freaking cold and nobody in their right mind would come up there by chance, but also via whatever mechanism is in place to keep the tomb populated... certainly sounds like Lyrian's idea. Girard relied on deception, and what we've seen of the tomb provides ripe opportunities for that. Kraagor's reliance on physical might would explain the basic mechanics of the tomb, and naturally, it's his tomb. About the only one who doesn't have an obvious hand in how it's built would be Soon... but, four out of five isn't a bad track record.

The only real commonality is Dorukan and Serini both built complexes that are much like classic D&D dungeons.

That the powerful monsters eat something...somehow, and something prevents a sorceror like X from just flinging about Disintegrates so the protective monsters do not end up eating each other, those are just standard hacks to make a stupid idea like a dungeon packed to the gills with monsters less mind-blowingly stupid.

Lirian, Girard, Soon all tried rather non-dungeonesque approaches.

Girard's pyramid somewhat resembles a dungeon, but except for the grand delusion enchantment trap, it was a cakewalk without Clan Draketooth there to actively maintain the defenses. That is not really a dungeon, but a clever kind of fortress.

[factotum]

I don't know - Dorukan is the one doing the yelling at Soon:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

It always seems to me that the main beef between the party members was Kraagor. It was Soon's order that the rift be sealed while Kraagor was still inside it, as we saw in the strip previous to the one you linked, that seemed to bring out the resentment in the other members of the party--hence Dorukan saying "You don't care if your *allies* fall" here, and Girard saying that Soon should have died in the rift, not Kraagor, in the message he left in the desert.

[Snails]

It always seems to me that the main beef between the party members was Kraagor. It was Soon's order that the rift be sealed while Kraagor was still inside it, as we saw in the strip previous to the one you linked, that seemed to bring out the resentment in the other members of the party--hence Dorukan saying "You don't care if your *allies* fall" here, and Girard saying that Soon should have died in the rift, not Kraagor, in the message he left in the desert.

I would guess that Serini and Kraagor could dilute down the potential flashpoints within the party by various means. When Kraagor himself became a flashpoint and he was not there to help, well...

I do not think there is much mystery in what happened there. Soon gave an order that made tactical sense, one that could easily have caught Soon or Kraagor or both, if they failed their save. Kraagor (presumably) accepted taking a shared risk, shoulder to shoulder with Soon because that is what brave dwarves do. Dorukan is emotional and feeling guilty for having killed Kraagor with his spell, but at Soon's order, so he resents Soon. Girard thinks that Soon's saving throws are better than Kraagor's (true in all editions of D&D), so Soon was not actually sharing the risk in a fair manner; Soon was effectively taking advantage of Kraagor's friendship and thus is responsible for Kraagor's death, in Girard's mind at least. Kraagor might have convinced Girard otherwise but he was no longer around to do so, and Soon's explanations would not matter to Girard.

[TRH]

Taking the risk of depleting his spells, something Durkon would probably do to save someone's life, it would take ~1.5 days. He can use his 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell, which adds up to 19 Remove Disease spells per day.

I thought the Mechane crew was bigger than that, but I haven't paid close attention.

[Ironsmith]

I thought the Mechane crew was bigger than that, but I haven't paid close attention.

It might have been initially, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Frost Giant skirmish claimed a few more lives than we've seen on-panel... probably less than half of them, or they'd be a lot more shaken, but no doubt a noteworthy chunk.

[Snails]

I thought the Mechane crew was bigger than that, but I haven't paid close attention.

Based on the size of the ship, it easily could be well north of 50, perhaps even towards 100. But we have not seen evidence that it is actually higher than 20 or so.

One of the factors that tends to keep the ceiling not too high is that 20-30 people could actually do a lot of damage to boarders, even to a pair of leveled barbarian frost giants. A confusing mass combat on the deck of the ship is probably not all that fun for the readers, nor much fun for the artist. So whether things were fudged a little here is not important. But what we see is what we see.

[eilandesq]

Based on the size of the ship, it easily could be well north of 50, perhaps even towards 100. But we have not seen evidence that it is actually higher than 20 or so.

One of the factors that tends to keep the ceiling not too high is that 20-30 people could actually do a lot of damage to boarders, even to a pair of leveled barbarian frost giants. A confusing mass combat on the deck of the ship is probably not all that fun for the readers, nor much fun for the artist. So whether things were fudged a little here is not important. But what we see is what we see.

There's also a huge supply of potions in the hold, and some of them might be of the Cure Disease variety (Belkar was out of luck after being drained because Restoration was too high level for potions, but Cure Disease is a third level spell and can be put in a potion (casting level 5). The disease is probably a relatively nasty one as far as the roll to cure it, but there's no reason not to try the potions first before Durkon (or Hilgya) start using actual spells.

[Ruck]

Maintenance. And, according to Dorukan, because there are scenarios where it is preferable to allow the right person to destroy it rather than allowing it to stand. You may disagree with his assessment, but he's the one that built them, and thus might have insisted on them remaining accessible.

GW

It probably has something to do with the nature of the gates themselves. They're supposed to contain the rifts that lead to the Snarl, right? Given that such would imply bizarre spatial constructs, it's likely that trying to put extra-dimensional stone (also a bizarre spatial construct) around it is something like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

...Actually, I guess it's probably more like trying to put a square peg in a round peg without breaking either of them.

I can buy all of that. (And from a Doylist perspective, making the Macguffin of the story completely inaccessible to the characters would probably defeat the drama-- although not necessarily, if the story can be sustained by the characters believing it's accessible.)

[Ironsmith]

I can buy all of that. (And from a Doylist perspective, making the Macguffin of the story completely inaccessible to the characters would probably defeat the drama-- although not necessarily, if the story can be sustained by the characters believing it's accessible.)

But then we'd never ever get to see the Snarl!

...I mean, that's what it's all building to, right?

[lothos]

.......Ready gives you ONE.........

Ready Player (character) One ?