V's Gender Debate II

[Darius Midnite]

I see....*cough*

[Devils_Advocate]

I can't wait for us to meet V's mate. I am sure that it will be another androgynous being for everyone to overanalyze.

[On the Origin of PCs spoiler]I bet that the wizard from Vaarsuvius's backstory is actually V's mate. It fits! With all that time locked away studying magic under Aarindarius, V would hardly have had time to meet anyone else, and (s)he later mentions to Durkon and Belkar that (s)he and Mystery Spouse knew each other a long time before finally acknowledging their feelings for one another.

It makes the way they parted ways all the more humorous, too. "... and don't come back here until you make something of yourself!"[/spoiler]

[evileeyore]

I thought you were married to miko, have you been commiting adultery again comrade?

As you can see by my sig I have but made the proposal and keep making the proposal with every post.

Miko has yet to accept, but she is a shy and demure noble lady, thus I am content to await her answer.

But until then a man can look you know. And talk smack. ;)

[Tharr]

Miko is now burning on great fire.

V is male in the mind set.

[yukina]

Ithink that V's a female don't ask why I just do maybe it's because she talks so much no ofence to my gender! But I could be wrong! :) :D

[Athanatos]

Wait, you think talking too much makes V female?

Geez, I should introduce you to some men I know...

[Tharr]

V gender he must be male because the female is at home doing some domestic loyal duties prehaps taking care of the young elvish children.

[Deuce]

Wait, you think talking too much makes V female?

Geez, I should introduce you to some men I know...

If you can get a word in edgewise. ;)

[gooddragon1]

If I put forth an argument I'll just get flamed by that one guy (wish I could remember the name, but there isn't enough time), but you should note that evidence is evidence and the evidence I provided can only be disputed by those who choose not to believe it.

[Deuce]

If I put forth an argument I'll just get flamed by that one guy (wish I could remember the name, but there isn't enough time), but you should note that evidence is evidence and the evidence I provided can only be disputed by those who choose not to believe it.

Meh, I still only see perceptions by characters, and the fact that Pompey has a clearly defined gender - the Linear Guild members do not seem to agree on V's gender, so how would they know if being male made Pompey more or less of an opposite? For that matter, why would the Linear Guild members have better info on the subject then the OotS (who've been around V much more)?

As to the title of #240, it is reflecting the perception of the hired killers - who have no solid info to base their perception of V's gender on.

This can be an interesting debate topic, but in practice, the best joke continues to be V having a very undetermined gender - I'm OK with that.

[Silivren]

If I put forth an argument I'll just get flamed by that one guy (wish I could remember the name, but there isn't enough time), but you should note that evidence is evidence and the evidence I provided can only be disputed by those who choose not to believe it.

Well, I guess I can't really argue with that logic. On a related note, I have determined irrefutably that the world is flat, cause some guy who didn't know what he was talking about said it was. Can't dispute that. Unless, of course, you chose not to believe my evidence...

[gooddragon1]

Well, I guess I can't really argue with that logic. On a related note, I have determined irrefutably that the world is flat, cause some guy who didn't know what he was talking about said it was. Can't dispute that. Unless, of course, you chose not to believe my evidence...

well, yep, thats the guy...
ok, since I got flamed it doesnt matter anymore...
Silivren, the drawing bit about how V isn't shapely has no pertanence (have you ever seen Ice skaters or runners). The POV of the characters (plural cuz both of them agree) says everything, in fact (239) the dwarf demolitionist quickly apologizes for his previous comment to all of them. Note: the door thing kind of reminds me of "charlies angels". I realize that inserting the dwarf's apology as evidence doesn't exactly work. Now, to attempt to show you the light. Silivren, It's just wonderful that you can say that all my proof is worthless and false, however its nice if you give as well as recieve. In other words, I would like for you to give evidence that V is male, not just say that V isn't male. 2nd Note: I use V to identify V instead of saying he or she, so I am still open minded. Next step, earlier you said that V was not shapely when the dragons tail granted partial cover against our gaze attacks... note what I said above (runners and ice skaters), also note that in morrowind-elder scrolls 3: Caius Cosades (Male-Imperial) has no shirt on, Second in command of fighters guild (Male-Orc) has no shirt on, *Guy at beginning of game (Male-Dark Elf) has no shirt on*, Many nord males hav no shirts on, but the female nords all do (few exceptions are suran and berserkers). Now in the game it said that dark elves were very modest, well the females and males are. To put forth the point. It is ok by typical courtesy for males to not have there shirt on (exceptions are social gatherings etc...) however it isn't ok for females to do this. Thus the reason for the dragon tail bit was to prevent anything graphic from appearing as the giant has done for Elan in bardic nudity(I just found out its pronounced EE-lin?!?). Finally, to tie morrowind to Oots, morrowind has magic and all the other features of a D&D game including setting (trees, tech, weaponry, etc...) and much of the game has some of that bearing. So (with respect to the clothing bit), I have...
1>proven that it is ok for males to go without shirts on many occasions, but not so for females
2>proven that not all women are shapely
3>put forth an example where this happens
4>proven a few clothing matters in morrowind
and
5>tied the game world of morrowind to Oots with relation to clothing
I realize that Silivren will probably be very upset and flame me some more, but I am telling the truth (to the best of my knowledge)
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=186
Edit: wow I managed to write something in response without getting upset. Yay!
Edit/Note: I was just going to be mean/evil and say "What Evidence?" and then laugh while making a cinematic exit, but that would have been mean so I decided against it.
Side question to the wise (Running dangerously low on time so I can't make a post) does being chaotic evil really require you to kill everything or can you just decide that life has no general importance and kill only when you want to (like on a whim)?

[Tharr]

We never know until Belkar rips off V clothes.
I wonder how much to pay him.

[Sothicus]

<snip>

Side question to the wise (Running dangerously low on time so I can't make a post) does being chaotic evil really require you to kill everything or can you just decide that life has no general importance and kill only when you want to (like on a whim)?

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand but... Chaotic means you do not hold yourself accountable to any set of rules.

Evil means that you commit more acts which are considered evil by the society at large than good ones.

In this case, murdering people is evil. It is neither Chaotic to do so, nor Lawful. Any person can commit murder on a whim. However, the Chaotic person will not accept law-based consequences for the murder, the Lawful person will.

I am trying to be specific here, because a CE person will KNOW he is murderering or not. And often a CE person will "accept" consequences such as retribution by next of kin, etc. However, he does not recognize the unlawfulness of said murder.

Back to the topic at hand... just so that this post isn't entirely wasted.... I can't believe it's gone on for 25 pages!

[Silivren]

I'm sorry you see my responses as flames. I will admit that the last one was a little more sarcastic than usual, but it was meant to illustrate how you can make any argument if no-one is allowed to dispute your "evidence."

Silivren, the drawing bit about how V isn't shapely has no pertanence (have you ever seen Ice skaters or runners).

You seem to have misunderstood me there. I mentioned the "shapelyness" thing specificially to point out that V's square shoulders were not conclusive proof of maleness. It is quite possible that V is simply a rather skinny female, similar to your examples.

However, I challenge you to find me ANY female depicted in OotS with a square body like that.
Even in This comic, we see a robed female, as well as a skinny elflike female, and both of them conform to the round shouldered bean shape of OotS females.

I would like for you to give evidence that V is male, not just say that V isn't male.

Ah, but you see, I'm not arguing that V is male. I AM arguing that we don't have any conclusive evidence of V's gender available, and that what you put forth as certain and unassailable evidence... isn't.

Bringing an unrelated game as evidence doesn't really bear on the discussion either. Better to have simply stated that mores and decency standards in the US frown on unclad female torsos, and that the concealment provided by the dragon's tail could have served to maintain those standards. However, because V is concealed, we cant really say WHAT is being hidden from view, so we have only what is visible to go by. And of course, since the Giant is deliberately feeding the confusion on V's gender, we know that we can't trust that he will only seek to conceal V's physical gender characteristics where required by western mores.

I realize that Silivren will probably be very upset and flame me some more, but I am telling the truth (to the best of my knowledge)

Well, truth is i'm NOT upset here (a little irritated, mabye: these points have already been discussed to death at this point). It's not condusive to good discussion to see any point that disagrees with you as a flame.

Edit/Note: I was just going to be mean/evil and say "What Evidence?" and then laugh while making a cinematic exit, but that would have been mean so I decided against it.

Also it would have reinforced my point, which wouldn't have accomplished what you intended by it anyway :)

And no, Chaotic Evil doesn't mean nonstop killing machine. A chaotic evil character will kill when he feels he has to, (or sometimes because he wants to, depending on his personality). Being chaotic just means he doesn't worry too much about what the law says (beyond being aware of likely punishments if he's caught), or about being consistent, for that matter. Actually, having to kill everything you see strikes me as more of a lawful evil approach. (their code says they MUST kill EVERYTHING, even if it will cause them more trouble than it is worth)

edit: corrected some gender specific pronouns that crept in.

[gooddragon1]

I'm sorry you see my responses as flames. I will admit that the last one was a little more sarcastic than usual, but it was meant to illustrate how you can make any argument if no-one is allowed to dispute your "evidence."



You seem to have misunderstood me there. I mentioned the "shapelyness" thing specificially to point out that V's square shoulders were not conclusive proof of maleness. It is quite possible that V is simply a rather skinny female, similar to your examples.

However, I challenge you to find me ANY female depicted in OotS with a square body like that.
Even in This comic, we see a robed female, as well as a skinny elflike female, and both of them conform to the round shouldered bean shape of OotS females.

Ah, but you see, I'm not arguing that V is male. I AM arguing that we don't have any conclusive evidence of V's gender available, and that what you put forth as certain and unassailable evidence... isn't.

Bringing an unrelated game as evidence doesn't really bear on the discussion either. Better to have simply stated that mores and decency standards in the US frown on unclad female torsos, and that the concealment provided by the dragon's tail could have served to maintain those standards. However, because V is concealed, we cant really say WHAT is being hidden from view, so we have only what is visible to go by. And of course, since the Giant is deliberately feeding the confusion on V's gender, we know that we can't trust that he will only seek to conceal V's physical gender characteristics where required by western mores.
Well, truth is i'm NOT upset here (a little irritated, mabye: these points have already been discussed to death at this point). It's not condusive to good discussion to see any point that disagrees with you as a flame.
Also it would have reinforced my point, which wouldn't have accomplished what you intended by it anyway :)

And no, Chaotic Evil doesn't mean nonstop killing machine. A chaotic evil character will kill when he feels he has to, (or sometimes because he wants to, depending on his personality). Being chaotic just means he doesn't worry too much about what the law says (beyond being aware of likely punishments if he's caught), or about being consistent, for that matter. Actually, having to kill everything you see strikes me as more of a lawful evil approach. (their code says they MUST kill EVERYTHING, even if it will cause them more trouble than it is worth)

edit: corrected some gender specific pronouns that crept in.

Finally, the post I have been waiting for...
It is interesting to see that you aren't upset, as for myself, I too was slightly irritated.
With relation to the Morrowind thing it was just a reference to better convey my message and serve as a background example.
Skipping to the end, I think I should revise my characters alignment. Primarily because if I could do whatever I wanted with the telekinesis spell I would kill on a whim and also I would not allow the law to get in my way. I would probably also lay waste to the realm of the inevitables and make sure that they never came back (I hate the idea that my character would be hunted for escaping death).
As for the challenge... you seem to be right, I can't find one yet, but if one does appear than that should be the end of this, although I was almost fooled by loki who is apparently male when I googled him.
Edit:telekinetics as an applied force in any way I wan't for example skull/brain crushing instantaneous kill or matter alteration/collapsing matter (tampering with the amounts of electrons, neutrons, and protons in the matter to cause an instability with a very fine amount of exerted force on a very small object or multiple small objects)

[Athanatos]

The POV of the characters (plural cuz both of them agree) says everything, in fact (239) the dwarf demolitionist quickly apologizes for his previous comment to all of them. Note: the door thing kind of reminds me of "charlies angels". I realize that inserting the dwarf's apology as evidence doesn't exactly work.

The character's opinions are everything? Aaaah... then Roy really was the King of Nowhere, because both the assassins and the inn staff said he was. But wait... Miko points out another person as being the King of Nowhere, and her point of view has to be right as well.

Huh... I guess that was just the stealthiest coup I've ever seen.

Next step, earlier you said that V was not shapely when the dragons tail granted partial cover against our gaze attacks... note what I said above (runners and ice skaters), also note that in morrowind-elder scrolls 3: Caius Cosades (Male-Imperial) has no shirt on, Second in command of fighters guild (Male-Orc) has no shirt on, *Guy at beginning of game (Male-Dark Elf) has no shirt on*, Many nord males hav no shirts on, but the female nords all do (few exceptions are suran and berserkers). Now in the game it said that dark elves were very modest, well the females and males are. To put forth the point. It is ok by typical courtesy for males to not have there shirt on (exceptions are social gatherings etc...) however it isn't ok for females to do this. Thus the reason for the dragon tail bit was to prevent anything graphic from appearing as the giant has done for Elan in bardic nudity(I just found out its pronounced EE-lin?!?).

Not necessarily. A perfectly feasible alternative is that The Giant put the tail there to prevent us from getting any conclusive evidence on V's gender. If the naked V had had breasts, it would have been proof that she's female. If the naked V had no breasts, it would have been proof that he's male. The Giant isn't going to throw away one of his best running jokes at the drop of a hat.

Finally, to tie morrowind to Oots, morrowind has magic and all the other features of a D&D game including setting (trees, tech, weaponry, etc...) and much of the game has some of that bearing.

Morrowind does not have lawyers. Morrowind does not have Evil Ivy League. Morrowind does not have Necromancy 101. You can't compare the two because the OotSiverse is deliberately tongue-in-cheek, whereas the world of Morrowind is generic deathly-serious high fantasy.

You have not proved anything. And neither have I. And neither has anyone in this thread. It's just not possible with the evidence that The Giant gives us (I wonder why?). While I personally believe V to be male, I'm not going to go make the statement that I have incontrovertible proof of his masculinity.

[Devils_Advocate]

If you want to know the evidence for V being male, a lot of it is summarized in the first post of this thread. Along with a lot of the evidence for her being female.

There's not just a lack of any conclusive evidence either way on the issue; there's a whole bunch of inconclusive evidence both ways!

[gooddragon1]

The character's opinions are everything? Aaaah... then Roy really was the King of Nowhere, because both the assassins and the inn staff said he was. But wait... Miko points out another person as being the King of Nowhere, and her point of view has to be right as well.

Huh... I guess that was just the stealthiest coup I've ever seen.


Not necessarily. A perfectly feasible alternative is that The Giant put the tail there to prevent us from getting any conclusive evidence on V's gender. If the naked V had had breasts, it would have been proof that she's female. If the naked V had no breasts, it would have been proof that he's male. The Giant isn't going to throw away one of his best running jokes at the drop of a hat.


Morrowind does not have lawyers. Morrowind does not have Evil Ivy League. Morrowind does not have Necromancy 101. You can't compare the two because the OotSiverse is deliberately tongue-in-cheek, whereas the world of Morrowind is generic deathly-serious high fantasy.

You have not proved anything. And neither have I. And neither has anyone in this thread. It's just not possible with the evidence that The Giant gives us (I wonder why?). While I personally believe V to be male, I'm not going to go make the statement that I have incontrovertible proof of his masculinity.

Assassins/King of nowhere=true, but still they were confused by the crown thingy

Dragons Tail-Thats possible, however you must realize that it is also possible for that illustration to have been targeted towards avoiding graphic images

Lawyers-Telvanni after a fashion (although its more like a judge thing with the as well as pretty much every imperial that exists could be a lawyer. Speaking of which mournhold had some legal system although it was more of a background.

I'm not sure what you mean by Ivy league, but 6th house cult, House Daggoth (with daggoth ur at the top of command)

Whoa with the necromancy, you are sooooo wrong...
Greater and lesser bonewalker, skeleton warriors, champions, and archers, lich, bonewalker, spirits, etc...
N'Gasta! Kvata! Kvakis! book 1 devoted to necro
Necromancy 1, 2, and 3- everything you wanted to know about necromancy but were afraid to ask.
Every dark elf tomb that I ever entered was occupied by at least 1 undead and sometimes much more. Want proof? Tell me what you encounter when you go into the cavern to get the bow of sul-senipull for that one guy to become ashkan of the tribe. Oh my god! So many undead! and those aren't the champions or warriors, they are carrying daedric weaponry and have loads of hit points. I barely escaped with my life and I was blasting away with the nastiest spells and weaponry in existance and had 3 maxed out healing potions active at all times. Thats like 50 hp a second for 60 seconds. In D&D thats 300hp/round! I guess it was because I ran through it and I had the game on max difficulty though. In retrospect I definitely should have made potions of invisibility or gotten a spell of invisibility/ the ability to fly/ boots of blinding speed in conjunction with the bear helm that lets you detect monsters.

Edit: as for the proof thingy I'm working on it and if a character that is female is drawn like V then I shall have even more evidence. Note that alot of my evidence is compelling and all I need is the right piece to slide through.
Note: Personally I would like for V to be male, but thats just not going to happen untill Big G comes out with it.
http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/#research

[The Lady Auneredra]

I'm new at this thread, and I've searched to see if it's been posted before, and got nothing. So! My argument is:
I think V is male because his/her body is shaped kind of "squarely", while Lirian, a definite female elf (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=196), is more "beany".
...That, and he doesn't have a rack. I mean, all the adult females I've ever seen in this strip have a little something up top.

[Tharr]

Maybe someone with fire with expose V.

[pocketwatch]

gooddragon1, I think you missed the point of the argument. The point put forth was not that Morrowwind lacked necromancy. The point was, Morrowwind lacks the comic devices such as Necromancy 101, as taught in Wathog's school of Wizardry. OOTS has a lot of funny but anachronistic elements such as lawyers with our legal system running around with lawsuits over beholder use. I'm fairly sure that isn't in Morrowwind. Now, this is not an attack on you or Morrowwind. I am not in any way flaming, nor are the others on this board. We are simply explaining our views on the issue. Please do not be so quick to take offense.

Edit: I just thought of something: To those people who insist that V is male because of squareness, have a look at some of the female avatars around here. There is a female half orc with a very square shape, as well as a square dwarf chick. Both admittedly have breasts while V does not, but robes cover quite a bit.

[Amalthea]

gooddragon1, I think you missed the point of the argument. The point put forth was not that Morrowwind lacked necromancy. The point was, Morrowwind lacks the comic devices such as Necromancy 101, as taught in Wathog's school of Wizardry. OOTS has a lot of funny but anachronistic elements such as lawyers with our legal system running around with lawsuits over beholder use. I'm fairly sure that isn't in Morrowwind. Now, this is not an attack on you or Morrowwind. I am not in any way flaming, nor are the others on this board. We are simply explaining our views on the issue. Please do not be so quick to take offense.

Edit: I just thought of something: To those people who insist that V is male because of squareness, have a look at some of the female avatars around here. There is a female half orc with a very square shape, as well as a square dwarf chick. Both admittedly have breasts while V does not, but robes cover quite a bit.

Only applicable if you can find a square-bodied elf female avatar.

Also, I'd point out that the avatars predate the comic, which is why Thog the half orc and the avatar half orc have different skin colors. And therefore, the body shapes of elves may have also changed.

[gooddragon1]

gooddragon1, I think you missed the point of the argument. The point put forth was not that Morrowwind lacked necromancy. The point was, Morrowwind lacks the comic devices such as Necromancy 101, as taught in Wathog's school of Wizardry. OOTS has a lot of funny but anachronistic elements such as lawyers with our legal system running around with lawsuits over beholder use. I'm fairly sure that isn't in Morrowwind. Now, this is not an attack on you or Morrowwind. I am not in any way flaming, nor are the others on this board. We are simply explaining our views on the issue. Please do not be so quick to take offense.

Edit: I just thought of something: To those people who insist that V is male because of squareness, have a look at some of the female avatars around here. There is a female half orc with a very square shape, as well as a square dwarf chick. Both admittedly have breasts while V does not, but robes cover quite a bit.

I wasn't really offended so much as shocked cuz there are undead in morrowind. Also I'm not directly comparing Oots to morrowind, just using it as an example of modesty and showing how the two universes could be similar in that sense. Plz don't think that my reaction was hostile or out of being offended as this is not the case. Lastly, I know there aren't any lawyers, etc... in morrowind, but there could be ;) (TES construction set)

[Amalthea]

I'm really confused. What is Morrowwind and why are we talking about it in reference to V's gender? It hasn't been mentioned in the OotS. ???

I tried reading the last two pages of posts, but it's so disjointed that it makes no sense.

[evileeyore]

Yes, please people focus.

This thread is about the topics of V, Gender, and Debate. Prefferably a combination of the three.

Now then. Resume.

[Tharr]

V has both gender parts is a weird theory.

[The Lady Auneredra]

Edit: I just thought of something: To those people who insist that V is male because of squareness, have a look at some of the female avatars around here. There is a female half orc with a very square shape, as well as a square dwarf chick. Both admittedly have breasts while V does not, but robes cover quite a bit.

About the avatars: Dwarves and (half) orcs are very stocky, stout, thick, etc. Their ladies are not usually considered feminine outside their own race, thus the "squaredness". Note the usually in there.
About the robes: The robed women in the recent Sapphire Guard comics are all in swishy robes, but you can definitely see the "ladiness".
Yay for making up your own words! :D

[Athanatos]

Assassins/King of nowhere=true, but still they were confused by the crown thingy

He had just as much reason to be confused with the hooker issue. The dwarf was running under the assumption that Roy was a hooker, and when she turned up at the door with "two friends", he assumed that they too were hookers. And then they attacked him. Now, is he going to say "My, it would seem as if that androgynous-appearing and androgynous-voiced elf is actually a man, and thus not a hooker!", or is he going to be very confused and call out for his shadowdancer ally? Obviously the second.

With nothing obviously dispelling the idea that V is a hooker (or perhaps an assassin posing as a hooker), the dwarf should have logically continued with his assumption. This bears almost no difference to the situation where, having no logical reason to disbelieve that Roy is the King of Nowhere, the shadowdancer assumed that he was king, Durkon was an advisor, and Haley was a concubine.

Dragons Tail-Thats possible, however you must realize that it is also possible for that illustration to have been targeted towards avoiding graphic images

Possible? Yes. Probable? No. You can't offer something as proof, and then back away and say that it's "possible".

Lawyers-Telvanni after a fashion (although its more like a judge thing with the as well as pretty much every imperial that exists could be a lawyer. Speaking of which mournhold had some legal system although it was more of a background.

Neither the Telvanni nor the Cyrodiil have names like Mr. Jones and Mr. Rodriguez. Nor do they talk about restraining orders, copyright infringements, and other such modern legal inventions.

I'm not sure what you mean by Ivy league, but 6th house cult, House Daggoth (with daggoth ur at the top of command)

Evil Ivy League... see comic 100, I think it was. Where the teenage goblin informer says that he wants to get into Evil Ivy League. The real Ivy League is a collection of some of America's finest and oldest colleges, on the east coast.

Something about necromancers, snipped for length.

Slow down pal, I never said anything about necromancy. I said Necromancy 101, a course that Julia is taking. Having educational courses end in numbers like that is an invention of the modern college system.

What's my point with these three examples? That the OotSiverse is not comparable to Morrowind. All three of those things exist only in fairly modern times. Lemme lay out the differences for you:

• Elder Scrolls: Serious, medieval.
• OotS: Comic, blend of medieval and modern.

Thus your point about their moral standards is moot.

Edit: as for the proof thingy I'm working on it and if a character that is female is drawn like V then I shall have even more evidence. Note that alot of my evidence is compelling and all I need is the right piece to slide through.

I won't even count how many times your evidence has been disproven... and even if you find such a character, that's no proof that V is female. That's a counterexample to supposed "proof" that V is male. You'd prove nothing except that the people who insist V's body shape proves male gender are silly.

[Jaime]

(for convenience, I'll refer to V as female, however, I don't have any strong opinions either way)

V has both gender parts is a weird theory.

Yes, it's pretty bizarre, but there are people IRL who are born with male/female gender parts. I do find it rather amusing that there are people who think that having a gender is absolutely necessary to V's existence. It doesn't have to be, and revealing her gender, if V is strictly male or female, would ruin the character for me, personally.

I'm just not going to bother touching the Morrowind argument--not only is it off-topic, but it's pretty silly.