OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

*We can add to that the possiblity of her being afraid that Durkon is wasting his life trying to fix hers.

...huh. What I noticed this time is that Sigdi specifically says they don't have the money for the regeneration, which will in some way or another be at odds with her status as a major donor to Thor's temple.

[Shining Wrath]

Hypothesis for which I have little evidence:

It's a different Sigdi Thundershield. Specifically, a not-too-distant ancestor of Durkon.

My little evidence:

• We know the dwarves practice arranged marriages.
• It's not uncommon among tradition-bound cultures for names to be reused among different generations of a family.

Possibly, then, Sigdi was named for an e.g., grandmother who also married into the Thundershield clan (assumption: dwarven women take their husband's last name. If they don't, then it's even easier - she's named for her grandmother, and therefore it doesn't really matter that the dwarves arrange marriages).

And the reason the Thundershield clan is poor is because Grandma Sigdi gave it all away. Consider the real-world practice of giving money to a monastery so they will pray for you or as atonement for some sin or sins. For Reasons, she bankrupted Clan Thundershield giving to the church.

[Manty5]

To atone for being the previous HPOH!

I know, a wacky idea.

[brian 333]

They may count things other than cash as donations. She sacrificed a husband and an arm for Thor.

She may be named after one of Dufkon's great-aunts.

Sigdi and Thundershield may be common names.

And maybe Sigdi's story is about to get some exposition. I can't wait to see.

[schmunzel]

I've been making a list of all the details I could extract from Durkon's flashbacks. I'm going to put them in a spoiler box, not because they're spoilers, but because seeing them all in one place might give people ideas about the plot that they'd rather not imagine just yet.

Details are listed chronologically, as best as I can work out.

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After they are married, Tenrin asks Sigdi if she'd like to meet under "Thor's starry sky."
Sigdi prepares her party with flaming weapons against the dragon-blood troll.
When Durkon was a child, Sigdi says "your pa used to look up at the sky."
Sigdi risks her own life to save an unnamed dwarf from dying dishonorably (falling off a ladder).
Sigdi refuses to allow Thirden from telling the story of how Tenrin died, specifically whether he died with or without honor.
Sigdi didn't know how to cook ("can barely boil water") before Durkon was born. However, since Durkon's birth she has been holding dinners every Wednesday (the day before Thor's day).
Sigdi's name is on the list of "very rich donors" for Thor's temple, even though she can't afford the donation to Odin's temple to have her arm restored.
Durkon does not thank his mother for any specific element of his clerical training, the way he thanks others for training in mythology, use of armor, etc.
Sigdi doesn't look proud that her son was ordained a cleric of Thor. She passes this off as discomfort about the debt she owes for the dress.
Though poor, Sigdi didn't want the free dress she was entitled to by the bylaws of Thor's church. She accepted it as a gift from Shirra.

My conclusion:

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Durkon's mother was a cleric of Loki before Tenrin's death. She does not talk about Thor until after Tenrin is gone; she says "your pa used to look up at the sky," not we. Sigdi prepares her team with flaming weapons, where flame is Loki's personal trick.

Tenrin dies with dishonor, which Sigdi never cared about before as a devotee of Loki. (Perhaps that is why she doesn't want to discuss it — it's not part of her faith.)

After his death, she devoted herself to raising Durkon as a cleric of Thor (even though it made her miserable). She holds feasts on the evening before Thor's holy day. She even learns to cook (she says she can "barely boil water" before having Durkon — and what boils water? fire). Why did she learn to cook? Because as a cleric with two hands, she could create food magically (create food and water has somatic components; presumably can't be cast by a one-armed caster). She risks her life to save a dwarf from Tenrin's fate, death without honor, which is something she doesn't even believe in herself; she's setting a good example for Durkon. She's not proud when Durkon is ordained as a cleric of Thor, and refuses the dress she's entitled to (until it is reframed as a gift from Shirra).

And I think Durkon knows it now, too. He's watched all those memories again, and he's figured things out that he hadn't known or noticed before. Durkon is going to have reconcile his having placed her on a pedestal with her similarity to Hilgya.

damn it you make some convincing points.
I have some nitpicks though.

Spoiler: even wilder theory alert

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1) You do not rush to help somebody risking your life in an instant just to set some random example for your son. Even Rhich explicitely stated that her deeds were because of "thats who dwarves are" (it was more complicated than that, referred to dwarves more in a general sense and I cant find the link, but still)

2) there are Astronomers in Thors temple. They look at the sky. I argue now (in contraray to what I said before (who cares anyway?? )) that Her husband was a follower of Thor, she vowed to raise Durkon in his image because she admired him and/or (or not) lost her faith in Loki

<snip>

And I consider her excuse just that: an excuse. Someone observed that Sigdi didn't look proud, and perhaps we should ask whether there is some truth in it. You apparently accept her justification without further question. I don't.

<snip>

It seems to be important to the story as Rhich seems to put some effort into establishing it (and her defence)

sch

[schmunzel]

<snip>


I disagree. Remember that this memory already happened by the time of Dorukan's Dungeon, whatever revelation we are about to see, he already knew when he spurned Hilgya. So it would be inconsistent for this revelation to be that Thor and Loki's teachings can cohabit in a single person.

<snip>

Sigdi would not necessarily have had to tell the truth

<snip>

What urgency? This is a memory we are talking about, Durkon has known this since before the comic started.

<snip>

Durkon is home *now* (posthumously)

sch

[Ikuryo]

@ Fyraltari

The fact that all of the memories are things Durkon knew doesn't mean much when he never had the time or ability to go back and look them over. There is a large difference between having experienced something first hand and reviewing your entire life passively and being able to learn new things by the relations of memories.

What is revealed next might be something he knew at the time of Durokans dungeon but it might not have ment anything to him at the time. Now, having had more experience and having rewatched much of his life without the urgency of trying to survive, he might be able to pull more from the exchange then he could before.

Just the part with the frog eating Roy let him learn something that he knew before but had not put together yet. What is going to be said over dinner might have a conneciton to something he learned when he was a child but he couldn't put it together at the time.

[Ruck]

They may count things other than cash as donations. She sacrificed a husband and an arm for Thor.

She may be named after one of Dufkon's great-aunts.

Sigdi and Thundershield may be common names.

And maybe Sigdi's story is about to get some exposition. I can't wait to see.

Whatever the explanation, I doubt bolded is it. There's no reason to introduce her name on the wall if "It's just a coincidence" is how it plays out. It's possible it's an ancestor, but again, unless Rich is deliberately trying to confuse us, the explanation that makes the most sense is-- if the name Sigdi Thundershield is on the Wall of Very Rich Donors at Thor's temple, then it's referring to Durkon's mother.

[Ironsmith]

*We can add to that the possiblity of her being afraid that Durkon is wasting his life trying to fix hers.

I like this line of thought. It ties in nicely with observations like "you were a spectator in your own life before I made you a spectator in your own life", for instance.

A possibility, regarding what happened to Tenrin? Exactly what Thirdin said (when you read the subtext, that is). Why does Sigdi not want to talk about it? Because it's a painful story (she lost her husband and her arm that day), and because, as the commanding officer in that mission, she's more vulnerable to survivor's guilt than anyone else. That goes double for a society as honor-bound as the dwarves.

[Mandor]

Whatever the explanation, I doubt bolded is it. There's no reason to introduce her name on the wall if "It's just a coincidence" is how it plays out. It's possible it's an ancestor, but again, unless Rich is deliberately trying to confuse us, the explanation that makes the most sense is-- if the name Sigdi Thundershield is on the Wall of Very Rich Donors at Thor's temple, then it's referring to Durkon's mother.

I agree that is the most probable explanation, and it should certainly be the default hypothesis.
Especially given the "interestin'" remark by Durkon. That's practically beggin' for the next sentence to be "So let's talk, ma."

But it's not implausible that it's Durkon's Grandmother, etc. There has literally been NO opportunity for it to be clarified between then and now.

[Yendor]

This is going to be a big, personal memory, which complements all of Durkon's other memories we've seen. There are three main things we know about Sigdi: none of her current friends knew Tenrin, she dislikes depending on others' help, and her thoughts about denying feelings of love.

Here's my theory: Tenrin is either not Durkon's father, or not Sigdi's husband. (Or possibly both.) There was another, rich dwarf involved who was the father and/or husband, and Sigdi inherited a lot of money from him, but she was ashamed of that money and so got rid of it. There might be some details switched around, but that's basically it. (One possibility that occurred to me: Tenrin was rich and having an affair with Sigdi, but she feels guilty about inheriting money from him because she feels she got him killed.)

[Psychronia]

I have no idea what Durkon is trying to do, but I'm excited for both the execution of his plan and his memory in general.

...So hey, Kudzu ended up affecting the overall battle in some as-of-yet unforeseen way!

[D.One]

This is going to be a big, personal memory, which complements all of Durkon's other memories we've seen. There are three main things we know about Sigdi: none of her current friends knew Tenrin, she dislikes depending on others' help, and her thoughts about denying feelings of love.

Here's my theory: Tenrin is either not Durkon's father, or not Sigdi's husband. (Or possibly both.) There was another, rich dwarf involved who was the father and/or husband, and Sigdi inherited a lot of money from him, but she was ashamed of that money and so got rid of it. There might be some details switched around, but that's basically it. (One possibility that occurred to me: Tenrin was rich and having an affair with Sigdi, but she feels guilty about inheriting money from him because she feels she got him killed.)

The main problem I see with all this Dark Sidgi/Secret Sidgi/False Sidgi theories is that they probably coudn't be part of Durkon's intentions. You see, he apparently can't directly lie to Greg, maybe omit something (that will be shown if Greg demands so) or show a previous memory with information that is not true anymore.

We don't know for sure, but by the way Greg talks here (panel 26-27), it's safe to assume he asked Durkon something in the line of "What happened to your father?". I think, if Durkon knew that story was false and that the true story of his father was another one, Greg might be able to see the ruse.

As far as we could understand, Durkon's plans probably rely on Greg's lack of ability to see the connections beetween memories, and to understand character growth. Thus, I believe there won't be a "HA! I fooled with false memories/memories that are not valid anymore!" that something in the lines of the Dark Sidgi idea suggests (Durkon would probably never know such informations anyway), but instead he will trick Greg with something like "HA! I've shown you everything, but you never connected the dots!"

As for Sidgi herself appearing and doing the big reveal, I don't think it will happen because:

1) That couldn't be part of Durkon's plan if he didn't know

and, more importantly

2) That would be her saving the day and taking the spotlight from Durkon, which is apparently the opposite way the story is heading.

PS:

and, because of (2),

3) It would be a bad and shallow Deus Ex Machina, something I don't see The Giant using...

[Shining Wrath]

I think Sigdi is probably at best a 5th level fighter with one arm. She'd be less help than Minrah. I do not think she's a powerful cleric of Loki, because a powerful cleric would have had different options available to fight a vampire troll than having her husband collapse the roof on top of them. Unless you want to argue that's an effective way to get a divorce, in which case - well, that's pretty dark, and I don't see the Giant having built Sigdi up as heroic to pull a switch like that. Sigdi is not going to show up and go Mama Bear on Durkon^T, at any rate.

Although I can see her showing up and giving Hilgya a piece of her mind for taking her grandson into battle. Now THAT would be a confrontation for the ages.

[KorvinStarmast]

Although I can see her showing up and giving Hilgya a piece of her mind for taking her grandson into battle. Now THAT would be a confrontation for the ages.

Yeah, looking forward to that. I can see this being a high probability conversation of Hilgya survives the fight with Durkula, which at the moment looks to be a strong possibility.

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, looking forward to that. I can see this being a high probability conversation of Hilgya survives the fight with Durkula, which at the moment looks to be a strong possibility.

Also, Hilgya would say something negative about Durkon's character exactly once. If there's one person in world OotS who could go verbally nuclear on Hilgya and make her back down, it's Sigdi.

[factotum]

Of course, we don't actually know at this point if Sigdi is even still alive? She definitely was 20 years ago when Durkon was thrown out, because one of his complaints was that he didn't even get to wish her farewell, but who knows what's happened since.

[hroþila]

Of course, we don't actually know at this point if Sigdi is even still alive? She definitely was 20 years ago when Durkon was thrown out, because one of his complaints was that he didn't even get to wish her farewell, but who knows what's happened since.

The High Priest of Thor tried to inform Durkon about his grandfather passing away not that long ago. While we only saw the beginning of that letter, it is likely that Sigdi would have been mentioned before Durkon's grandfather if there were bad news about her. That'd be a much smaller window for her to die before the current arc.

[D.One]

The High Priest of Thor tried to inform Durkon about his grandfather passing away not that long ago. While we only saw the beginning of that letter, it is likely that Sigdi would have been mentioned before Durkon's grandfather if there were bad news about her. That'd be a much smaller window for her to die before the current arc.

And Minrah seems to know her, and seems to talk about her as a still-alive person.

[Ruck]

I agree that is the most probable explanation, and it should certainly be the default hypothesis.
Especially given the "interestin'" remark by Durkon. That's practically beggin' for the next sentence to be "So let's talk, ma."

But it's not implausible that it's Durkon's Grandmother, etc. There has literally been NO opportunity for it to be clarified between then and now.

The Doylist in me says "If it was i.e. Durkon's grandmother, Rich would have simply given her a different first name to alleviate confusion." Otherwise, I'd have to believe he did it solely to confuse the readers who decided to translate the donor wall before the reveal.

[Yendor]

A couple of interesting lines here:

"Ye know how much Sigdi means ta all o' us at tha temple."
"After all our family's done fer them, this be tha thanks we get?"

It's certainly consistent with the idea Sigdi was a major benefactor of the temple.

[Jasdoif]

The High Priest of Thor tried to inform Durkon about his grandfather passing away not that long ago. While we only saw the beginning of that letter, it is likely that Sigdi would have been mentioned before Durkon's grandfather if there were bad news about her. That'd be a much smaller window for her to die before the current arc.

Especially since Durkon directly mentioned both her and his grandfather in his letter, all the way back in Azure City.

[Shining Wrath]

The Doylist in me says "If it was i.e. Durkon's grandmother, Rich would have simply given her a different first name to alleviate confusion." Otherwise, I'd have to believe he did it solely to confuse the readers who decided to translate the donor wall before the reveal.

Translate, though, is a key word; it may be an "Easter Egg" joke rather than a key plot point.

[zimmerwald1915]

Translate, though, is a key word; it may be an "Easter Egg" joke rather than a key plot point.

Yendor points out dialogue that also indicates Sigdi is "important to" the Temple of Thor.

[Shining Wrath]

Yendor points out dialogue that also indicates Sigdi is "important to" the Temple of Thor.

Most likely, Sigdi did give a lot of money to the church and chose to live in poverty. I explore other options because it amuses me to do so.

The conversation between Durkon and Sigdi about why she gave away all that money will likely be revealing of character.

[Kashem]

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I just realized something else: it is likely that the troll is dead at this point, from starvation, suffocation, or whatever. That means that Durkon's father's remains would be relatively easily accessible.
If Durkon's father died dishonorably, Durkon would actually have the relatively unique ability to FIX that. All they'd have to do is dig him up, have Durkon resurrect him, and then he could not only bring back Sigdi's arm, but her HUSBAND. Heck, by the end of the adventure, he might end up high enough level to go for a full True Resurrection, and not even need to dig him up, though one would question whether it'd be cheaper to dig him out than it would be to pay the additional diamonds.

Also just realized that Hilgya has been in town for a while now most likely. She might have already regenerated Sigdi's arm.

Reasonable chance of this being in the epilogue either way.

[Fyraltari]

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I just realized something else: it is likely that the troll is dead at this point, from starvation, suffocation, or whatever. That means that Durkon's father's remains would be relatively easily accessible.
If Durkon's father died dishonorably, Durkon would actually have the relatively unique ability to FIX that. All they'd have to do is dig him up, have Durkon resurrect him, and then he could not only bring back Sigdi's arm, but her HUSBAND. Heck, by the end of the adventure, he might end up high enough level to go for a full True Resurrection, and not even need to dig him up, though one would question whether it'd be cheaper to dig him out than it would be to pay the additional diamonds.

Also just realized that Hilgya has been in town for a while now most likely. She might have already regenerated Sigdi's arm.

Reasonable chance of this being in the epilogue either way.

Durkon is more than 50 year old. I doubt there is anything left of Tenrin to cast on.
And The Giant doesn't like True Resurrection. At all.

[D.One]

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I just realized something else: it is likely that the troll is dead at this point, from starvation, suffocation, or whatever. That means that Durkon's father's remains would be relatively easily accessible.
If Durkon's father died dishonorably, Durkon would actually have the relatively unique ability to FIX that. All they'd have to do is dig him up, have Durkon resurrect him, and then he could not only bring back Sigdi's arm, but her HUSBAND. Heck, by the end of the adventure, he might end up high enough level to go for a full True Resurrection, and not even need to dig him up, though one would question whether it'd be cheaper to dig him out than it would be to pay the additional diamonds.

Also just realized that Hilgya has been in town for a while now most likely. She might have already regenerated Sigdi's arm.

Reasonable chance of this being in the epilogue either way.

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As far as we (and probably Durkon) know until now about his death, Tenrin's death was quite honorable, sacrificing himself to stop the Half-Dragon Troll and save his remaining comrades.

If The GodBet remains by the end of the Story, I believe even Sidgi would not be in favor of bringing back her died-with-honor late husband (but that's anjust an opinion of mine).

As for Hylgia, I don't believe she would be walking around searching for Durkon and asking informations in the Temple of Thor if she had already met Sidgi. She could just wait him there.

[Thurulian]

I am kinda curious what happened to Sabine after Nale died, Rich never shows her after the battle with Tarquin so i think it would be the perfect unexpected move to make her suddenly appear and help them with the vampire situation and bring some news from the Fiends for V.

[8BitNinja]

I am kinda curious what happened to Sabine after Nale died, Rich never shows her after the battle with Tarquin so i think it would be the perfect unexpected move to make her suddenly appear and help them with the vampire situation and bring some news from the Fiends for V.

Maybe she'll Diablos ex Machina into the fight, siding with the vampire.