D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

[DracoDei]

Late reply to some critique from the "VII:Something Borrowed" voting thread:

Self-Sacrifice Domain: Okay, this is the domain that should replace "Life" as the standard,

High praise!

but also I'm drunk and I'm not going to read your whole entire other class to make sense of this entry.

Quite reasonable, even if you had not been intoxicated.

On the other hand, polearm users don't get enough love, so kudos for that.

Hey, if you are going to be good at Opportunity Attacks, being able to block a wider area really helps!

I like how strong this is as a bodyguard, but holy crap, if you're expending spell slots, you don't also need to take damage, not for a mere 2-to-10 d8 radiant damage.

I read a thread on Sorcadin's in 5e that implied that channeling spell full-caster slots into Smite was a very nice thing, and since they got that PLUS other benefits to opportunity attacks, I though it would be best to put something in there that made it more of a sacrifice than merely not getting any glory by using the attack action (and I'm planning on re-nerfing it to disallow damaging spells as well).

It is actually a lot better of a trade off than a weapon enchantment in 3.x/PF. That one dealt you 1d6 damage in exchange for 2d6 extra damage. It wasn't limited to Attacks of Opportunity* but was much worse of a trade-off than 1 per 1d8.
*The 3.x/PF term.

That said, you are using a Channel Divinity and losing the ability to use the attack action.

Nit-pick: Also, it goes up to either +9d8 or +11d8 depending on how you look at it (and/or if you uses one of the "Director's Cut" options at 8th level). 9th level slot -> +9d8. +2d8 from the default 8th level feature, which in this case ONLY applies to OOs.

I'd reluctantly allow this in my campaign,

Would you just drop the sacrifice damage and call the other drawbacks sufficient?

That seemed like your only objection.

but I haven't yet met a player who's likely to take this option. Their failing, not yours.

Indeed, I was aware that it requires a very special sort of player to want to do this, and I agree on that not being a failing of mine.

Your custom spells are very good, too.

Very good to know.

I came in late and I think that cost me some feedback, but those spells were especially were rarely mentioned in other people's critiques.


Finally:

Path of the Spirit Vessel: Oh my God, what kind of trash is this? You think you're cute, combining pact magic with a barbarian? The fluff is just drivel; did you even spell-check this crap? Who made this?

...

Oh.

As I have heard it put in a way that stylistically references The Sermon on the Mount:
"Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never lack for entertainment."

[nickl_2000]

Next set, with fresh eyes that are hopefully not to tired

Spoiler: Ranger subclass: The Marshal

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Tactical Awareness - I was completely on board with this until you are allowed to use each others proficiency for ability checks. At an hour per level, that turns a whole party proficient in nearly all the skills (for both combat and non-combat), and since this ability doesn't require concentration its even better.

Flanking Tactics - My gut said this was to much.... then I saw that it ended the first time that the creature was hit. So, it seems perfectly fine to me. Although, does it need to be limited to a certain amount of times per rest? It should probably be re-phrased so that if the ranger misses, they can choose to mark a creature as Targeted. That way, the Ranger can target the BBEG and attack minions if they want to. This makes it more of a tactical choice instead of passive.

Strategic Regrouping - I think 10 minutes is to long here. Maybe 1 minute?

Stalker Veteran - I like this a lot. It adds significantly to a Ranger core feature.

Spoiler: Sorcerer Archetype: The Fair One

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Overall comment. Make sure you put the levels that you get things in the abilities. It is a pretty standard design pattern that WotC uses in their subclasses. Also, it avoid confusion since I am not sure it token of favor is a level 1 or 6 ability.

Beguiling Influence - There needs to be a limiting factor here. As it is right now, you could literally charm an entire city given enough time. It needs to be either 1 person at a time, the person gets a save every round, or limited to X times per day to keep it a little bit more sane.

Token of Favor - Sickened isn't a condition in 5e. So, if you want a particular effect other than the person feeling blue, you will need to spell it out more effectively.

I really like the take here, it's an interesting feature on a character since there are no clear combat bonuses in the subclass features. I think the wording needs to be tightened up a little bit and toned down a little, but overall it's a good subclass.

Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: Arrogate

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Coordinated Attack - Given that anyone attacking is going to do more damage than the 1d6 in sneak attack, I don't think you need to boost their damage. Sure, they could miss, but adding in Dex/Str/Cha/Int is still going to be better than the 1d6 sneak attack alone. I also might consider boosting the amount of sneak attack dice you have to spent to do this, since this is a consistent reaction that you are providing to another class (especially a Rogue).

Distracting Presence - Tighten up the wording here please. As it is right now, I disengage, attack anyone successfully, anyone withing 5 ft of the disengage must make a save. That seems kind of odd to trigger it on multiple people at once. It probably should trigger on a single creature, instead of everyone to tame it down a little bit.

Get the Drop - I'm just trying to get my head canon around why you would suddenly be able to swim and climb for 1 round, and I just can't do it.

Focus Fire - A powerful, powerful capstone. Given this, I don't see why anyone wouldn't ever do this. I don't think it is overpowered though.

Spoiler: Bardic College of Professors

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Make sure that you say is't the Bard: College of Professors. I'm pretty sure most would be able to figure it out, but including that doesn't hurt.

Bonus Proficiencies - Gut said that 3 artisan tools and 3 languages was to much. However, as I thought about it these are much more fluffy than the Lore Bard 3 skills. So, it should be perfectly fine and not overpowered.

Crash Course - I like it, support for someone outside of combat. Does it need to be limited to one use of this at a time, do you think? Or since it takes a minutes to do it is that good enough?

Inspiring Education - Seems perfectly fine to me.

Arcane Instruction - Thank you for including the once per long rest. That goes a long, long ways towards making this a sane ability. I would make it a "bard" spell that you know. That way you can prevent someone from dipping sorcerer and teaching an ally 3 shields a day, or taking MI: Wizard and getting everyone a familiar friend. However, it still gives some flexibility due to magic secrets since they are considered bard spells.

Phew, caught up again. I love the increased interest in these contents, but it sure makes it harder to keep up with comments.

[Vogie]

Responding to feedback

• Adding cantrip option to Coordinated attack - used War Caster verbiage.
• Removed bonus damage from Coordinated attack.
• Reduced capstone bonus damage from Coordinated attack.
• Removed Distracting Presence feature.
• Revamped Get the Drop to follow feedback.
• Added a utility feature.

Distracting presence is replaced by Pre-Mortem, which gives effectively a non-spiritual Augury spell ritual.
Get the Drop is replaced by Conspire, that combines the Inspiring Leader mechanic and the Armor of Agathys to give creatures an edge, providing THP equal to 1/3rd level + INT, and those effected have +2 Initiative and stealth checks, after each rest.

[Segev]

Overall comment. Make sure you put the levels that you get things in the abilities. It is a pretty standard design pattern that WotC uses in their subclasses. Also, it avoid confusion since I am not sure it token of favor is a level 1 or 6 ability.

I only left it off of level 1 abilities, since I think WotC does the same, but I'll add them. Token of Favor is level 1. (Sorcerers get 2 level 1 powers from their subclass, and then one at 6, 14, and 18.)

Beguiling Influence - There needs to be a limiting factor here. As it is right now, you could literally charm an entire city given enough time. It needs to be either 1 person at a time, the person gets a save every round, or limited to X times per day to keep it a little bit more sane.

You can't maintain Concentration through a Long Rest, and while Charm will keep them from harming you, it otherwise only gives you Advantage on Charisma checks. It also breaks if you cause damage or do something that makes them save (and they succeed).

The design goal here is that the sorceress can waltz into a situation and potentially make the entire bandit camp besotted with her or terrified of her, as well as that she could, for example, use friends to influence somebody, then, when it wears off, make them either too scared of her mind-controlling ways to do anything about it, or make them forget she did it and gain increased benefits from them finding her just that persuasive (by spending an SP).

That said, what if I gave everybody who she was currently Charming with that ability another save each time she uses it on a new target?

Token of Favor - Sickened isn't a condition in 5e. So, if you want a particular effect other than the person feeling blue, you will need to spell it out more effectively.

...gah, you're right. Poisoned would do, but I don't want to make immunity to that condition a valid avoidance. I'll have to write something explicit out.

I really like the take here, it's an interesting feature on a character since there are no clear combat bonuses in the subclass features. I think the wording needs to be tightened up a little bit and toned down a little, but overall it's a good subclass.

Thanks!

It's definitely not a combat-focused subclass, though I will point out that Throngs of the Beholden and Idolized can let her participate in combats remotely. Idolized, in particular.

Also, because it can be used as a reaction, Beguiling Influence can force anybody attacking her to save or be Charmed and thus...not attack. That's probably too strong, though, so I need to nerf it a bit. It doesn't work if she's facing more than one attacker in a given round, but I don't think that's mitigation enough.

Edit: On second thought, because it basically ends if the sorceress is a participant on the other side of a fight, she can't maintain it on more than one creature per round in a fight. And they do get a new save each time. I'll amend it to ending if creatures the targets believe to be its allies are harmed, too, though.

Post-modifiction edit: Added a new saving throw if non-psychic damage is inflicted by the sorceress or her apparent allies on any creature the subject considers an ally. Redefined the effect of discarding a token of favor to being "heartsick," a condition which makes the victim Poisoned and Frightened of anything that reminds him of the sorceress while it lasts. (Remains something he can end with a Long Rest or by spending Inspiration.) This does mean anybody immune to both conditions and to psychic damage has little reason to not discard it if they don't like the Bond she's given them, but I think that's the best I can do. If they're that specifically immune to her powers, she just can't influence them very well.

She remains able to Charm entire groups one Reaction at a time, but it's a lot harder to maintain during a fight wherein she has any allies trying to defend themselves, and Charmed, by itself, is not super powerful outside of its "can't attack me!" clause. Useful, but not ridiculously so.

Also expaned Token to be subtly more powerful in a potentially strong way: it can be used on anybody Charmed by her, not just on anybody "beguiled." Since it extends the duration of the Charm, it would also extend rider effects. This is particularly powerful with the Dominate line of spells, so I added a note that he is prevented from voluntarily discarding it when denied ability to make voluntary actions, but added that the Charm is suppressed until the end of his next turn if he makes any saves granted by the Charm-inducing effect (allowing him to discard the token if he chooses during his next turn).

[Nicrosil]

I'm also new, so grain of salt on any of my feedback, but...

(snip)

Thanks! I agree that Crash Course and Inspiring Education are a bit redundant, but to be honest I didn't have any other ideas for a 6th level feature.

As for giving the class more combat oomph... I have no ideas. Maybe something like pointing out an enemy's weakness? I'm not sure how to implement that beyond what Bardic Inspiration can already do...

Next set, with fresh eyes that are hopefully not to tired

(snip)

Thanks! I'll make sure to update the post to make it clear it's for Bards. The intent was for the minute conversation with Crash Course to only be for one target at a time; how should I word it to make it clearer? Or should I make it work on crowds? If so, how should I word it?

As for Arcane Instruction, changing the wording to "a bard spell with a casting time of one action" should prevent most craziness. Hypothetically, by spending your entire Bardic Inspiration pool, you give your party the ability to cast any 1st level spell with the casting time of 1 action three times each. What's the worst case scenario? A ton of Cure Wounds? We live in a post Healing Spirit world. Guiding Bolt spam?

Edit: Wait I'm dumb I forgot I made it once per long rest. Yeah spending 1 Bardic Inspiration dice to give 3 Cure Wounds or Guiding Bolt isn't that bad.

[Hawk7915]

Thanks! I agree that Crash Course and Inspiring Education are a bit redundant, but to be honest I didn't have any other ideas for a 6th level feature.

As for giving the class more combat oomph... I have no ideas. Maybe something like pointing out an enemy's weakness? I'm not sure how to implement that beyond what Bardic Inspiration can already do...



Thanks! I'll make sure to update the post to make it clear it's for Bards. The intent was for the minute conversation with Crash Course to only be for one target at a time; how should I word it to make it clearer? Or should I make it work on crowds? If so, how should I word it?

As for Arcane Instruction, changing the wording to "a bard spell with a casting time of one action" should prevent most craziness. Hypothetically, by spending your entire Bardic Inspiration pool, you give your party the ability to cast any 1st level spell with the casting time of 1 action three times each. What's the worst case scenario? A ton of Cure Wounds? We live in a post Healing Spirit world. Guiding Bolt spam?

Most Colleges give a way to do extra stuff with Inspiration. What if a College of Professors bard allowed their Inspiration targets to expend their inspiration to take some action (Dash, Help, Use Object, Hide?) as a Bonus Action? Maybe too crazy.

Or maybe folks can spend Inspiration to reroll, instead of adding +1d6?

Or maybe folks no longer roll and instead get a flat +3/+4/+5/+6, reflecting that you make them consistent?

Or maybe folks you Inspire also gain their proficiency to ANYTHING - not just skill and ability checks but attacks and saves too. You make them as much of Expert as you are!

[Man_Over_Game]

Ranger subclass: The Marshal

Tactical Awareness - I was completely on board with this until you are allowed to use each others proficiency for ability checks. At an hour per level, that turns a whole party proficient in nearly all the skills (for both combat and non-combat), and since this ability doesn't require concentration its even better.

Flanking Tactics - My gut said this was to much.... then I saw that it ended the first time that the creature was hit. So, it seems perfectly fine to me. Although, does it need to be limited to a certain amount of times per rest? It should probably be re-phrased so that if the ranger misses, they can choose to mark a creature as Targeted. That way, the Ranger can target the BBEG and attack minions if they want to. This makes it more of a tactical choice instead of passive.

Strategic Regrouping - I think 10 minutes is to long here. Maybe 1 minute?

Stalker Veteran - I like this a lot. It adds significantly to a Ranger core feature.

Thanks for the insight!

I suppose I could remove that portion of Tactical Awareness. My goal is to allow players to feel comfortable splitting up, and ability checks are a really big reason for the party to stick together. I could make it so that when one ally makes an Ability Check with their Action, another ally can spend their Reaction to apply their proficiency to that Ability Check if it's applicable. I mean, they already have telepathy, so it's not that weird to use a Reaction to help a friend who's a mile away.

On Flanking Tactics, I intentionally want it to be on the creature you missed. It lowers the overall power, and makes it so I can afford to not have it tie into a resource. Do you attack the target you WANT to hit, or the one you want to grant Advantage against? Without that, it'd be more passive and lazy leadership of "I attack, and target the most obvious creature to target". When most of the subclass is built around passive abilities, I wanted something that required your constant thought and attention each round. Decisions, decisions.

Strategic Regrouping is a Long Rest feature that mostly grants allies Proficiency on every Save for 10 minutes. That seems like a lot, but even Paladins grant more with their permanent aura. The 10 Minutes clause is to allow players time to move towards the ally, and the Saving Throws are to allow the allies to either survive long enough to get assistance, or to ignore obstacles that are preventing them from regrouping with their allies. Best case scenario, it's +2-+6 on Saving Throws that you didn't have Proficiency in for one fight. I might tone it down, but I'm worried that 1 minute is too short if the party is split up.

I'm glad you like Stalker Veteran. This was actually one of my favorites, too.

[Nicrosil]

Thanks for the input Hawk! I'm hesitant to play around with action economy too much, or give people proficiency in saving throws or add it to damage, if only because I'm not good enough to balance it right.

I changed out the 6th level feature for basically Commander's Strike, and let Crash Course work on instruments as well as weapon proficiency, and let you teach multiple people at once. Arcane Instruction will still only work on 1 humanoid though, just in case. If anything, I'm a bit worried that it might be a bit underpowered? Generally, if someone in the party was going to be using a weapon, they would already be proficient in it, you know? And in my experience, if one person in the party knows a language or has proficiency in a skill, effectively everyone is...

EDIT: I changed the bonus proficiencies to be 2 artisan's tools and 1 martial weapon. This should hopefully make Crash Course and Teach by Example more useful...

[MoleMage]

Hey all, I've been phone only for the last week because my internet was down and I was waiting on them to ship me a new router. The good news is, it arrived yesterday and I can look at all of this on a larger screen now. I'll get some feedback and try to get an entry up over the next several days. I gotta say I'm impressed with how much has already happened on this contest.

[nickl_2000]

Welcome to the contest CircuitEngie!

Spoiler: Ranger Archetype: Wild Guide

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Apprentice - An interesting difference in an animal companion. Thank you for making the apprentice an adolescent instead of a child, although at some tables this may still be problematic (some tables don't like the idea of anyone underage being in combat). Also, can the apprentice wield magical weapons and armor if the PC were to give it to them? When an apprentice dies or you replace them, do they keep the same Advanced/Expert training options and favored terrain/enemies?

Advanced Training - Theses seem both effective and make sense thematically. I honestly don't see much that would need to be changed. That being said, I don't see much of a reason that I would have my apprentice in melee combat unless I can't avoid it. It will never have the AC needed to be able to survive well in combat.

Overall, the idea of being able to teach things that you are proficient in is extremely thematic. However, it's a little bit ineffective in group synergy. Instead of getting extra skills for the party, you just have another person that can do the same skills but not as good. There are some times where this could be helpful, for example perception and investigation when searching, but overall it feels like there would be to much overlap. I wouldn't mind seeing the Lure of the Wild ability replaced with a new concept that would add more to the party overall.

This subclass looks it looks like it would create some incredible RP chances with young allies and teaching moment and would be fun to play. It has a Ranger's Apprentice type vibe to it, which is a series I really enjoyed, so that is a positive in my book.

[CircuitEngie]

Welcome to the contest CircuitEngie!

Spoiler: Ranger Archetype: Wild Guide

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Apprentice - An interesting difference in an animal companion. Thank you for making the apprentice an adolescent instead of a child, although at some tables this may still be problematic (some tables don't like the idea of anyone underage being in combat). Also, can the apprentice wield magical weapons and armor if the PC were to give it to them? When an apprentice dies or you replace them, do they keep the same Advanced/Expert training options and favored terrain/enemies?

Advanced Training - Theses seem both effective and make sense thematically. I honestly don't see much that would need to be changed. That being said, I don't see much of a reason that I would have my apprentice in melee combat unless I can't avoid it. It will never have the AC needed to be able to survive well in combat.

Overall, the idea of being able to teach things that you are proficient in is extremely thematic. However, it's a little bit ineffective in group synergy. Instead of getting extra skills for the party, you just have another person that can do the same skills but not as good. There are some times where this could be helpful, for example perception and investigation when searching, but overall it feels like there would be to much overlap. I wouldn't mind seeing the Lure of the Wild ability replaced with a new concept that would add more to the party overall.

This subclass looks it looks like it would create some incredible RP chances with young allies and teaching moment and would be fun to play. It has a Ranger's Apprentice type vibe to it, which is a series I really enjoyed, so that is a positive in my book.

Thanks for the good feedback!

I'm working on a sidebar to handle some of the questions regarding magic items and the specifics of the apprentice (mainly what happens if you abuse your apprentice, similar to breaking a paladin oath). In general, you can give the apprentice magical weapons which will modify the attack/damage normally but you are limited to the weapon types they have proficiency in and you share attunement slots. I hadn't considered that there might be a question as to if a new apprentice has the same training options, so I will clarify that as well.

Maybe a shield proficiency option under Advanced Training (+2 to AC) would help the apprentice in melee, and change the Expert Training option to avoid very high AC. I want a melee apprentice to be viable, but not overwhelm other tank characters.

I could change the skills to be Ranger skills, but then I lose some of the flavor of the "Follow me" subclass thread. For example, changing "a skill you are proficient in" to "a skill from the list of Ranger skills" won't make much of a balance difference.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Aloha, so I've glanced through the current contest's thread. Do I have to post in the official thread yet? I'm just brainstorming right now.

I'm thinking of an Intruder Rogue that creates Vantage Points.

Criminal Expertise
At 3rd level you gain proficiency in Investigation or Survival. If you are already Proficient in both skills you gain Expertise in either.

Invader
Beginning at 3rd level you can mark advantageous positions called Vantage Points based on information gathered when scouting. You must be hidden to mark a Vantage Point, and it requires a Bonus action. Only those proficient in Thieves' Cant can recognize Vantage Points unless you specifically teach them how to look for your own.

The value of Vantage Points is time sensitive. As soon as you identify a Vantage Point, an ally has one minute to occupy it and make use of its effect. Once an ally occupies a Vantage Point, its effect must be used before the end of their next turn or be wasted. You can set a number of Vantage Points equal to your Intelligence Bonus. You recover all uses of this ability after completing a short or long rest.
- Vantage Points[sblock=Vantage Points]
--Breathing Room. An ally that enters this space can use a bonus action to spend a Hit Die. They recover hit points as if the die had rolled its maximum result plus their Constitution bonus.
--Deadly Positioning. Attacks made by an ally that occupies this space deals additional damage equal to your Int Bonus.
--Power Slide. Allies can leave this square without provoking attacks of opportunity.
--Artful Cover. Allies that enter this square has cover and is lightly obscured until the beginning of their next turn.
--Ambush Point. Allies that attack surprised creatures from this position with melee or ranged weapon attacks deal an additional 2d6 damage.
--Trap. An enemy lured into this space suffers caltrops, triggers a hunter's trap, or a falling net trap. This Vantage Point requires caltrops, hunter's trap, or net.[/sblock]

Eye for Leverage
Beginning at 9th level you develop a keen eye for things of great personal value in a location you're scouting. You can add your Intelligence bonus to checks to recognize such items. If you have these items and use them in negotiations, you may add your Intelligence bonus to the Persuasion or Intimidation roll.

Prey on the Weak
Beginning at 13th level, if you hit a creature with advantage, the next attack directed at them before the end of your next turn also has advantage. If the attack isn't made by you, it deals an additional 2d6 damage.

17th level feature... Maybe some kind of Dreamwalk ability that lets you invade a target's mind? Something like Mordenkainen's Mansion where you use the 10 rooms to organize their memories and then you can choose to lock them away, or shuffle them around or leave a trap in the form of a Geas. Blocked by Mindblank, if the creature wakes up while you're in there you get dumped out in front of it, no prep, just on your butt.

Maybe a 5 room mansion, with youth, adulthood, venerable, and then good and bad memories. This is just trapping for a handful of Spell-likes. By moving or stealing memories you can modify memory, place a Geas. Each time you check a new room after the first they get a Save to dump you out. Each time you alter something, they get a save to avoid the effect. So you might get to see every room, but not get any effect. When you succeed on one effect the power ends and you return to where you left.

So Childhood/Youth- create an Aversion
Adulthood- create an Attraction
Venerable-Modify Memories (add false ones or take some away like time does)
Cherished Memories- place a Geas
Bad Memories- Make them afraid

I love this feature right now because it let's the DM choose whether to make this a big exposition moment for the enemy (if the big bad) or to just reduce it to a series of saving throws if its a nobody you just want to manipulate.


I might also use my Hero Class as a base and write up the Unity Hero (which is supposed to be Captain America themed).

[moonfly7]

Hey um, I'm gonna put in my request for that two week extension now....extenuating circumstances and all that

[Crisis21]

I have a new theme idea: In Loving Memory (create a subclass in honor of a famous deceased person)

...I call Stan Lee.

[Nicrosil]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

[Man_Over_Game]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

I did something like that a while back, when people asked for advice on specific classes, but I didn't compile them into a single post or anything like that.

Barbarians, for example, always go in the progression of:

3: Your really cool thing that effects how you fight in combat. Everything else simply adds to this playstyle or creates a synergy with it with a new feature.

6: Focus on Mobility, Utility or Defense, whichever you need more, based on what your 3rd level trait is. Try to diversify what you provide to the group.

10: Focus on Mobility, Utility or Defense, whichever you need more, based on what your last two traits were. Once again, diversify what you provide to the group.

14: Do what you did at level 3, where you create a new feature, but it has to tie in to how that 3rd level feature plays. Make it cool, make it worth 14 levels, and it should specifically have a bonus oriented towards combat.

I could try to come up with some guides for the other classes, if you want, but what I write up is so barebones that I'm not sure if it's even all that helpful.

[Crisis21]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

As far as feature types go, there's very few hard rules, but there are a few themes such as Paladins typically getting Aura powers at 7th level. That said, I recently did a project where I created a 'universal' archetype and thus had to research what levels each class got features. Anything in brackets was an 'always' deal, but a '+' in the brackets means the class got that in addition to another full feature.


Archetype Spells (Always known/prepared - Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Paladin) (Sorcerer, Ranger, and Bard sometimes get this)

Expanded Spell List (Can learn extra spells not normally on class spell list - Warlock)

Bonus Proficiencies (Bard gets 2-3, Other classes sometimes get one or two)

1st level: 4 (Cleric, Mystic [+Bonus Disciplines], Sorcerer, Warlock)

2nd level: 3 (Cleric [1/2 Channel Divinity], Druid, Wizard)

3rd level: 9 (Artificer, Barbarian, Bard [+Bonus Proficiencies], Fighter, Monk, Mystic, Paladin [Channel Divinity], Ranger, Rogue)

6th level: 10 (Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Mystic, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)

7th level: 4 (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue)

8th level: 1 (Cleric)

10th level: 6 (Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Rogue, Warlock, Wizard)

11th level: 2 (Monk, Ranger)

14th level: 7 (Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Mystic, Warlock, Wizard)

15th level: 3 (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger)

17th level: 2 (Cleric, Monk)

18th level: 2 (Fighter, Sorcerer)

20th level: 1 (Paladin [Capstone])

[nickl_2000]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

This is a really, really good idea, and I haven't seen one of them out there. I'm actually starting to develop one, and will put it out there for comment once I have something that is worth sharing.


Phew, even after having done this for awhile there is a lot that goes into making a how to guide for writing subclasses. I've got a first draft of the Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Fighter written. So, hopefully some time next week I will have a first draft of the entire thing for other to take a look and and disagree with me about my assessments.

[Crisis21]

This may be a bit off-topic, but are any of you interested in mcu-based archetypes? Because I've made a bunch...

[MoleMage]

Hey um, I'm gonna put in my request for that two week extension now....extenuating circumstances and all that

One request noted. I had a busier week than anticipated but I think I will have a slower one coming up and can actually catch up.

[nickl_2000]

I know everyone is busy, but is there any chance we can get more reviews/comments/updates? Feedback really helps all of us tighten down the subclasses.

[sengmeng]

I know everyone is busy, but is there any chance we can get more reviews/comments/updates? Feedback really helps all of us tighten down the subclasses.

Seconded. Honestly, if you're reviewing my entry and don't think it currently belongs in the top 3, I'd like to hear that and know what I can do to change your mind.

I'll try to review them all at some point this week, but has anyone not yet received feedback at all?

[MoleMage]

I've got time to put some reviews in, though I still haven't come up with an idea for my own entry. As always, if I don't mention a feature, I thought it was in a good place.

Spoiler: Oath of Royalty

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• Oath spells look mostly good. Tiny Servant and Animate Objects are odd, but I can kinda get it.
• Channel Divinity: Both seem to be about right. Inspiring Presence does get a little too strong if you have a big group or even just a couple allies. I would also specify whether the extra radiant damage applies to a single target or all targets for multiple-target cantrips (acid splash and eldritch blast in the PHB both can multi-target).
• Aura of Leadership: This is pretty neat and not something I've seen before. It's like a limited Jack of All Trades. I like it.
• King's Touch: Getting all of Lay on Hands back on a short rest is a huge benefit. I actually think it might be too strong. I like using Lay on Hands to give temporary hit points, but I would dial back the amount gained on short rest to maybe 2/5th or 3/5th of the normal amount. Maybe it's just me though (my current game has a Warlock and a Monk in the party, we like short rests).
• Divine Right: This is a lot of bonuses for an always-active feature, but it's also a capstone. Since all of the options require actions to use or are mutually exclusive with at least one other option, it's probably not too overpowered but definitely still strong.

I like the theme; it's specific enough to fit player fantasy, but simple enough to fit many settings. I think some of the features offer too much overall power, but all of those features are highly defensive. I'd use this if I wanted to play a forgotten royal scion, or even just a healing-primary paladin (it's less boring than Oath of Redemption).

Spoiler: Vestige's Disciple

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This appears to be down for reconstruction. Let me know when you've got the new version up and I'll get you a review.

Spoiler: Middle Management Domain

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Once again, you've taken something and turned it delightfully on its head.

Channel Divinity: Increasing your bandwidth. I would recommend getting an extra action in the style of haste instead of the style of action surge, but otherwise this is fine.

Honestly, all of the features look like they're in line, and I like that you've updated to buzzword-style feature names. My only concern is that a full action surge for any ally will have unpredictable balance across all allies. Paladins, Rangers, and Warlocks will value it more than Rogues or Monks. (Doubling opportunities for Smite or application of Hex/Hunter's Mark).

Spoiler: Pied Piper

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• Charming Song: It's essential to the identity, and I think you've captured it well. I would suggest allowing a new save at advantage or even just outright shrugging off the effect for one minute when injured, though. Right now it could end up trapping a troll or other low charisma enemy permanently while your party attacks them and they have very little chance of escape.
• Musical Expertise: At this point, Charming Song basically locks down whatever creature (other than creatures with Legendary Resistance) you use it on.
• Other than Charming Song improving at 14th level, do you have another 14th level feature planned? If not, I would separate out the Charming Song improvement into its own feature to make the subclass look more complete.

A faithful rendition of a classic tale, but possibly a little too easy to permanently control creatures while your friends cut them to ribbons.

Spoiler: Grey Wizard

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I can't complain about a deliberate representation of such an iconic wizard.

• Rallying Spell: I would specify a "spell of 1st level or higher". It's effectively that already (since a cantrip has no spell slot and therefor affects 0 allies), but it would be more in line with normal wording for such features.
• Battle Secrets: There's a lot to unpack here. I'm okay with increased character options myself, but I do know that a more straightforward approach tends to do better at voting. It would also be nice if these were organized either in groups by prerequisite or theme or alphabetically.

• Focus Weapon should require Martial Student.
• Extra Attack probably should as well.
• Spell and Sword in Accord should have a limited number of uses; otherwise it's pretty reliably going to lead to quickened spells, especially when considering Arcane Archer or Insightful Strike.
• Heart Ward requires Inspiring Spell, but you've renamed the feature Arcane Inspiration.
• Staff Master: Since no battle secret gives shield proficiency and you can perform somatic components with the same hand you hold a focus in, the ability to hold your staff in one hand doesn't add much. It's still a lower investment option than Focus Weapon, though.
• Spellsniper shares its name with a PHB feat.

• Arcane Inspiration. My concern here is that the Grey Wizard now is better at doing the bard's job than the bard. Even assuming it's a spell of 1st level or higher (which the feature doesn't specify at the moment), the Wizard has 10 spells at this point, plus up to 3 more through Arcane Recovery. If all of those are single-target buff spells and the Bard has 18 charisma, the Wizard will output 1 more die than the bard. On top of that, wizards get access to multiple-target spells, though few that are buff spells. I would put some more restrictions on this, starting with the "spell of 1st level or higher" restriction, but also defining what constitutes casting a spell on someone (does a fireball dodged due to evasion, or a poison cloud used on an ally immune to poison? What about Sleep on allies with too many hit points to be affected?). I would also recommend limiting this to one target per spell, otherwise the Bard may as well go home.
• Arcane Inspiration: I didn't mention it above, because it's a separate concern. When considering the Rallying Spell feature, Arcane Inspiration is thematically redundant. Both stack with each other, so it's mechanically very strong (Advantage plus 1d6 inspiration plus whatever buff? That's a nice big stack of bonuses), but it doesn't expand the choices the wizard has.
• Chromatic Metamorphosis: I love the trigger condition (I used a similar one on my Destined class, though it was an active ability). The daylight function should probably have a limited duration; when it comes up, it's going to be extremely strong. It's niche enough that I can let it be though.

Overall, I really like the theme, but I think Arcane Inspiration could use some tightening up. Battle Secrets could possibly be pared down (both number known and the total list) as well, as many options are unappealing (Staff Master and Triage are weaker than Focus Weapon and Ancient Tactics, for example).

Spoiler: Swift End Monk

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An interestingly literal take on the contest.

Marked for a Swift End: The wording on this is hard to follow. The first part (regarding Dodge) is fine, but the second part (regarding the bonus to hit) is problematic. On top of that, the monk need not reach the target on their first turn to trigger the effect, but allies do need to reach the target on their first turn to gain the benefit. I would simplify this feature. It also might be worth separating the Wisdom to Initiative into its own feature.
Marked for a Swift End: Dodge for a full minute against the target can be crazy good against big boss monsters like dragons. It also encourages leaving the target of the Mark alive until all other enemies are defeated (as it is less effective in its attacks), which is counter to the described theme of the ability. I would make the baseline effect increased damage and leave the shared effect for if the monk triggers the bonus as-is.
Follow, with Haste: Why does this have a duration? It seems like it should just be a passive with no duration. Right now, those allies get the bonus for a minute after they stop acting after you on initiative.
Danger at the Fore: The cost on this is probably a little too high on top of the long rest restriction. 2 or 3 would be sufficient.
The End Brought About: I was so confused at first when I read this feature. I understood it once I got to the end, but leading in with the Unarmed Attack roll, I thought it was a feature that let you kick your ally in the face when they fell just for the fun of it. The healing should be reduced (I recommend 10 + 5*Die) or the Ki increased (maybe 5ish). Even with the drawbacks, 10 times a d10 is potentially a lot of hit points.

I think you've given yourself a good theme, but not all of your features necessarily fit it. As mentioned, Mark of the Swift End encourages just the opposite, to draw out its defensive benefits. The ki costs also need a touchup. If you decide to update this, let me know and I'll get another review up for the updates.

I'll be back this afternoon with a second post for the rest of the classes. Great work so far!

[nickl_2000]

I've got time to put some reviews in, though I still haven't come up with an idea for my own entry. As always, if I don't mention a feature, I thought it was in a good place.

Once again, you've taken something and turned it delightfully on its head.

Channel Divinity: Increasing your bandwidth. I would recommend getting an extra action in the style of haste instead of the style of action surge, but otherwise this is fine.

Honestly, all of the features look like they're in line, and I like that you've updated to buzzword-style feature names. My only concern is that a full action surge for any ally will have unpredictable balance across all allies. Paladins, Rangers, and Warlocks will value it more than Rogues or Monks. (Doubling opportunities for Smite or application of Hex/Hunter's Mark).

Thanks MoleMage, I will watch for yours when it comes up :)

I can explain my reasoning for giving a full action rather than just an extra attack. You are using up a resource and an action of your own to give something to someone else. It seems like my sacrifice of an action just to give someone else 1 attack (during their turn) just isn't all that great. As it is currently, I'm giving up my action and a channel divinity to give someone else an action. Which is theory is a net loss of resources.

It ends up being a tactical choice of giving that action because they are in a better position or have fitting spells. I do agree that it will have a very disparate affect on different classes, but if I limited it to only an attack it wouldn't be all that useful to give to a non melee character. This way seemed like it would be more useful on more classes than other options. I am certainly open to other thoughts though.

[MoleMage]

Some more feedback!

Spoiler: Marshal Ranger

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• Tactical Awareness: I like the first two bullet points, but while the last bullet point is not too strong, I worry about the effect it will have on party specialization. If everyone shares skill proficiencies (and tool proficiencies), it only matters who has the highest ability score, barring Expertise. I don't think it's overpowered, just that it could reduce player satisfaction if someone else uses their skills.
• Strategic Regrouping: If the range is 1 or 6 miles, how far does the party move to regroup? Do they teleport or cross intervening distance? 10 minutes is a little long for the saving throw bonuses. I would say they are each proficient in the next saving throw they make, and leave the travel portion at the 10 minute mark.
• Stalker Veteran is a nice, if subtle, power boost. It would take a certain party but at level 11 you've had time to develop it.
• Marshal's Command needs a duration. It's otherwise fine, though it should be at level 15 for the PHB ranger.

Overall, the class is useful if a little bland. I think that empowering party members to do their tasks better would be more fun for the table than allowing them to do each others' tasks.

Spoiler: Savage Leader Barbarian

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We had the civil king paladin above, now we have the savage barbarian king here. Both solid fantasy tropes that needed filling.

• Undaunted Horde: The "before the beginning of your next turn" part is unnecessary. I like the feature. It gives a rare but solid-feeling bonus and is nicely offensive to complement the barbarian getting in the thick of things.
• Reckless Frenzy: I've never seen a per-ally resource written like that. It's fairly clean. I would say that it should be a limited number of allies, but since they can only use it once and they must accept the drawback it's probably fine.
• War Cry: 3 times is pretty frequent for such a powerful feature. I'd limit it to one use per long rest. It also isn't clear whether it affects allies who are currently within range or allies who are in range when you use it.

I like this. It doesn't have a lot of depth, but it does expand the options of the barbarian and their party, so I would say it's a good subclass as-is.

Spoiler: War Chief Barbarian

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Another barbarian ruler! I like barbarians myself, so this is great.

• Lone Wolf Dies: This is a good way to share the benefit. I will mention that 3rd level usually expands rage, but I'm not terribly tied to that particular nuance of barbarian subclasses.
• Top Dog: I understand what you're trying to do here, but it should probably also be clear that if the barbarian or his friends are actively attacking, the enemies do not need to make the save.
• The Pack Survives: 10th level barbarian is not a combat upgrade normally. I'm a little more invested in that trend than the 3rd level being rage-based, because it affects the balance of barbarians. Top Dog would fit here better; War Howl could be level 6 and this would be a good level 14 feature.
• War Howl: As I implied above, I think this would be fine earlier on. It's a good feature, but it comes with some baked in limitations (what the Help action is capable of, the requirement to use a bonus action, the requirement to be raging) that make it actually less impressive than The Pack Survives.

I think this is good, but the features don't always come along with the power appropriate for their level, and Top Dog needs a little bit more in the way of counter-options.

Spoiler: Warlord

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I usually think that the Warlord is a role that fighters should fulfill baseline, but a subclass is probably more appropriate on reflection.

• Master Tactician: I would restrict the shared action surge to a single weapon attack (like an opportunity attack), but otherwise all of the bullets here are okay. It does add a number of different features, but no more than Battlemaster.
• Rally the Troops: Incentivises Charisma, but it comes at level 6. I would put a Charisma-controlled ribbon feature at 3 so players know to expect Charisma to be important.
• Our Finest Hour: You are now a fully-fledged backup healer. I like the idea that martial characters can fill a healing role, though.
• Lead from the Front: This should probably have a maximum number of affected targets. Alternately, make this a bonus that you can use on top of your old benefits once per long rest (meaning you have to choose which action to provide it to). Sharing Action surge with a squad of archers turns enemies into pincushions too easily otherwise.

For all that every one of this subclass's features are just ways of sharing existing fighter features with allies, it doesn't feel boring. I think that if you tone down the potential for action surge abuse on Lead from the Front you'll be in a good position.

Spoiler: Fair One Sorcerer

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I'll be honest, this isn't what I expected when you said minionmancer. It's a fresh take.

• Beguiling Influence: This is interesting. Sorcerers are already kings of concentration (being the only spellcasting class other than Eldritch Knight to get Con proficiency, but this basically ties it up permanently. I also like the ability to erase single acts from the target's memory; it adds a lot of roleplaying potential. One concern is that the party will potentially be able to trivialize encounters for their level by ensorcelling a creature much more powerful than them. A CR cap based on level would mitigate this.
• Token of Favor: Does discarding the token remove Beguiling Influence? It seems like it should (especially if enacted by the sorceress), but it doesn't appear to in the text of the feature.
• Intrusive Thoughts: It's a nice little bonus; communication spells are often overlooked despite their potential for use.
• Throngs of the Beholden: As with intrusive thoughts, it's a nice little bonus. They actually pair together really well also.
• Idolized: I would make the use of Idolized require a sorcery point to cast from their space. Everything else is fine, though it isn't clear how senses would work if the sorcerer is able to have that many built-in arcane eyes.

Overall, I have mixed feelings about this subclass. If used as intended, it would be fine, but it does have a very high potential for exploitation due to the unlimited nature of creating thralls. I'm inclined to vote on it as if played by a reasonable person, because I don't see a way to limit the exploitability without cutting the soul of the subclass away.

Spoiler: Arrogate Rogue

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Guerilla warfare, business management. We're one Squire-Training Paladin away from this being the first contest to have all of my suggested theme interpretations!

• Pre-Mortem's usage time is pretty long when compared to its maximum "range" as it were. I'd make it a minute to talk through for up to 30 minutes in the future.
• Conspire is a good out of combat feature, and I like that it's Intelligence keyed. That said, an Intelligence-keyed feature earlier in the class would be nice to indicate that it's important for this subclass.
• Focus Fire: I would swap the values so the ally gets the bigger bonus. Otherwise, I think it's about right for the subclass capstone.

Really gives the feeling that good preparation pays off, which is important in a guerilla class. Good work!

Spoiler: College of Professors

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It really does seem the most logical extension of the Bard Subclass name.

Bonus Proficiencies: Wow, that's a lot of proficiencies. Tools and Languages are typically weaker than skills though, so you're fine.
Crash Course: Requires some preparation to do, but it's nice. It allows everyone to share your many, many languages as needed also, which is nice if often ignored at my table.
Arcane Instruction: This is new. I actually really like it, and with the 1st-level restriction it's probably balanced. I would specify that the casting of that spell doesn't require spell slots (this will both allow non-casters to benefit and prevent spellcasters from upcasting this 1st level spell with higher slots).

It really is a shame that bards have such a short subclass. There is a lot of potential for expansion in the various Bard Colleges that I think is being ignored, and this College is no exception.

Spoiler: Wild Guide

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I'm going to count it as the "take a squire" in my suggestion list and call this a complete set! That's only exciting to me though.

The Apprentice functions in much the same way as beast master ranger's animal companion, but it has slightly more hit points (5 per level instead of 4 per level, plus it gets your Con). I would reduce the overall number of hit points for the apprentice.
Advanced Training: Covers a good array while each option is itself easy to apply. Longbow Training should also increase the range of the apprentice's ranged attack to 150/600. I assume each feature can only be taken once; this should be specified in the feature (if not, features which can be taken multiple times should specify such).
Expert Training: Does Two-Weapon Fighting work with Longsword training? As it's written it should, but that is non-standard for TWF.
Expidited Lessons: More restrictive than bardic inspiration, but it should be since this isn't a bard. It's a good feature, if a little bit underwhelming for a level 15 feature. I'd like to see another Apprentice bonus at this level.

Overall, I actually really like this subclass. Dial down the Apprentice HP sans-toughness and you'll be in a good place.

That should be everyone. If I skipped you, it was on accident; let me know and I'll remedy it post-haste. As an additional note, I would like to see more people offering feedback. It doesn't have to be for every entry, but if you could take the time to pick one or two, it means a lot to keeping this contest running.

[Nicrosil]

Some more feedback!

(Snip)

Thanks for the feedback! I agree that the bonus proficiencies might be a bit much; I debated making it up to 3 of artisan tools proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, or a language... but I'm not sure how to elegantly word that, or if it's even needed.

Speaking of wording, how should I word Arcane Instruction to make it clear that it doesn't use spell slots? I can probably just copy it from a monster with innate casting, or a race that can cast spells like tieflings or something.

Also I'm planning on giving feedback for everyone else; just take everything I say with a grain of salt.

[MoleMage]

Thanks for the feedback! I agree that the bonus proficiencies might be a bit much; I debated making it up to 3 of artisan tools proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, or a language... but I'm not sure how to elegantly word that, or if it's even needed.

Speaking of wording, how should I word Arcane Instruction to make it clear that it doesn't use spell slots? I can probably just copy it from a monster with innate casting, or a race that can cast spells like tieflings or something.

Also I'm planning on giving feedback for everyone else; just take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Warlocks also have this. The standard wording is just "you can cast X without consuming a spell slot."

[Vogie]

Some Thoughts, slowly from the top-

Spoiler: Oath of Royalty

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Inspiring Presence is probably broken - basically a better Inspiring Leader feat, as it has no cap of targets, is a bonus action instead of an rousing speech, and also makes them all scoot like you're a Glamour bard giving the ol' razzle dazzle. I'd suggest capping something - either less THP, less targets, something. For reference, Mantle of Inspiration does a flat 5-14 THP (depending on level) to up to 5 creatures (based on Charisma mod).

Love aura of leadership. You're 100% a wrestling coach.

King's Touch is a nice... touch. I really like it

I don't think the King's Touch effect should be duplicated with Divine Right... I can see both players and DMs going "Which version of Lay on Hands are we doing?"
I also wouldn't reference Short Rests at all - they just spend hit dice, and heal equal to roll + Con Mod.
Why reference your 1/Rest Channel divinity options at all here? Since this class can already boop out LoH as a bonus action, you already share the love the normal way. I think these should trigger on just LoH uses and maybe spell casts on other players, Order-Cleric-Style.

Vestige's Disciple
Come'on I love me some warlock goodness.

Middle Management
I need me some bandwidth. Normal naming conventions aside, This is great.

Spoiler: Pied Piper

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All creatures within hearing range? Yikes. I like the appeal, but there's no way that's balanced. However, we can certainly get there.
What I'd do is make it more of a ranged version of the Enchantment Wizard's Hypnotic Gaze (although you'd just reduce the speed instead of dropping it to zero, and they won't be incapacitated), and have it capped. Normally bards are using the BI dice for this level of feature, so I'd suggest doing that - expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to charm BI die+Charisma mod number of creatures of that type.

Musical expertise is odd - expertise in playing instruments? Sure, I guess. Giving everyone disadvantage on your Charming song throw(s)? DAMN. It was already OP, now moreso. I'd like to follow the theme of the bard doing things - Maybe you can make Musical Mockery, using your instruments to (essentially) twin Vicious Mockery on multiple targets that you can't charm

I think there should be more at 14. Being able to charm both Bugbears AND Goblins are great, but lets do some more things. Perhaps you can lean into the mind control aspects and do things with the Compulsion spell. Perhaps you just change it so when your spells normally require a Wisdom save, you can force a Charisma Save instead.

Spoiler: Grey Wizards

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Rallying Spell doesn't work great offensively without a range extension on the help action... I'd just spell out exactly what happens instead of referring to the help action in this case. Otherwise, steal the Mastermind wording. Once it works, It'll could be awesome. However, Arcane inspiration is just a Cleaner ability overall... I'd just stick with this.

Having both an active feature AND Battle secrets is a bit much... doubly so since you're getting 2, and one of them is friggin' improved critical.

I'd probably Just stick with 2 Battle secrets at level 2. There's a lot going on in the battle secrets, and having additional features on top of that (and full wizard spellcasting) is a bit overloaded.

Chromatic metamorphosis is neat, but I find it odd that it's a one-off switch. It's only as dramatic as the situation you find yourself in.

[Segev]

Some more feedback!

Fair One Sorcerer
I'll be honest, this isn't what I expected when you said minionmancer. It's a fresh take.

Thanks! I was initially going an entirely different direction, but the ideas I kept coming up with for that direction that worked pulled this way, while those that felt in theme for the other (it was a sort of Thallherd like thing) just kept falling apart as too complicated or doing too much to fight the existing class and systems of 5e.

• Beguiling Influence: This is interesting. Sorcerers are already kings of concentration (being the only spellcasting class other than Eldritch Knight to get Con proficiency, but this basically ties it up permanently. I also like the ability to erase single acts from the target's memory; it adds a lot of roleplaying potential. One concern is that the party will potentially be able to trivialize encounters for their level by ensorcelling a creature much more powerful than them. A CR cap based on level would mitigate this.

It is only the Charmed condition, not the "regards you as a friendly acquaintance" thing that is the charm monster spell. Really, all it does is mean they can't attack her, and she gets Advantage on Charisma checks. That super-powerful thing is only joining up if the party does amazingly well on Charisma, and at that point, having Advantage probably wasn't the clincher. Unless I'm missing something?

Edit to add: I should also mention that the memory-drop effect will expressly allow friends to serve as a staple stunt for the Fair One to Beguile people, since it automatically makes them hostile. She casts friends, walks up, does whatever with Advantage on Charisma, and then they realize what she did. The moment they act on that hostility in any way, she can Beguile them and, if they fail their Wisdom save, make them forget she cast friends, thus the whole reason why and fact that they were hostile. I hope I made that kind-of obvious by calling friends out in the description of the ability as an example of something that could be forgotten. End Edit

• Token of Favor: Does discarding the token remove Beguiling Influence? It seems like it should (especially if enacted by the sorceress), but it doesn't appear to in the text of the feature.

The general idea is that it wouldn't, but only because my thoughts are that she'd have long since ceased Concentration on the batch of Beguiling Influences that the token-bearer might've been a part of. Thinking about the specific situation where she hasn't yet done so, but still chooses to revoke the Favor and inflict Psychic damage, which expressly doesn't break Beguiling Influence, I'm thinking this still is working as intended. He remains Charmed, as well as being Heartsick.

Remember, again: it's only Advantage for her on Charisma checks, and he can't attack her. It doesn't actually give her any direct control. But this would further cement how devastating losing her Favor is.

But again, if she's already ceased Concentration on whatever Beguiling Influence set he was a part of, it ended long ago. The Token just kept him Charmed in spite of other influences having ended.

It's also worth noting that any condition that makes a subject Charmed by her enables her to give the Token out.

The real scary part of this power is how it might also extend riders of higher-level Charm abilities. If, for instace, she gives it to somebody hit by dominate person, which has the clause, "While the target is charmed, you have a telepathic link..." that lets you exert control, the fact that the Token extends this Charm indefinitely is pretty darned potent. (Note, though, that despite the Token reasserting Charms, it can be suppressed by effects which grant new saving throws, and domianate person grants a new saving throw each time the subject takes damage at all. So the complexities of specific Charm-inducing effects is a double-edged sword, here.)

This is sort of the meat-and-potatoes of the whole subclass, meant to turn all those "Charmed" effects into means of making long-term minions that can be sent out to do her bidding far from her. This is also why Intrusive Thoughts and Throngs of the Beholden and even Idolized do things to improve her ability to monitor and communicate with her adoring fans.

• Intrusive Thoughts: It's a nice little bonus; communication spells are often overlooked despite their potential for use.
• Throngs of the Beholden: As with intrusive thoughts, it's a nice little bonus. They actually pair together really well also.

Thanks! I tried to make all of these features interconnect and be greater together than individually, building on each other.

• Idolized: I would make the use of Idolized require a sorcery point to cast from their space. Everything else is fine, though it isn't clear how senses would work if the sorcerer is able to have that many built-in arcane eyes.

This was something I waffled on, and decided to err on the side of power, because I like scrying effects. It may be too strong. As written, she simply does see through all of them. It may be better to allow her to cast treat any one of them as an active arcane eye at a time, switching as a bonus action on her turn. This would limit a little where she could use the spellcasting from. Adding the sorcery point cost would be a valid alternative.

Overall, I have mixed feelings about this subclass. If used as intended, it would be fine, but it does have a very high potential for exploitation due to the unlimited nature of creating thralls. I'm inclined to vote on it as if played by a reasonable person, because I don't see a way to limit the exploitability without cutting the soul of the subclass away.

It's not entirely unlimited: there's a committed sorcery point for each Token beyond the first. That can get up to 21 Tokens, admittedly, but at that point she's not exactly using metamagic or getting a lot of spells.

...ah, there's a slight flaw in this. The "can't get it back" thing raises questions regarding how burning spells to SP works. I'll need to clarify that.

The idea behind it is less that you have a travelling minion escorting you (though you can use it that way), and more that you can send agents - potentially powerful ones - out into the world to do your bidding and act in your name. That, and everybody in town is unable to bring themselves to harm you, even if they hate you. And those who don't hate you probably like you a whole lot, if you've been exercising your Charisma Advantage to make yourself likable.


Made the following change to Throngs:

She may create additional tokens beyond her first, but for each such token beyond the first, she must commit a Sorcery Point until that token is rejected or revoked. Committed sorcery points are spent, but count against the maximum she may have as if she still had them, so the Sorceress with a maximum of 14 Sorcery Points who has 5 committed cannot have more than 9 uncommtted Sorcery Points.

And Idolized now reads as follows:

At 18th level, the sorceress's connection to those upon whom she's bestowed her favor is such that they can call to her for aid. She may treat any one of her active tokens as an arcane eye, and may switch which she is looking through as a bonus action on her turn. Any bearer of a token my cast sending, targeting her, without spending a spell slot and with only needing a verbal component (a plea for her attention). While looking through the token as a scrying sensor of any sort, she may spend a Sorcery Point to act as if standing in the square of the bearer of that token for purposes of casting any spell she knows, and if needed, the bearer of that token may expend a Reaction to deliver a touch spell cast in this fashion on her behalf.

Idolized's change is simply to reduce the number of arcane eyes she has at once to one, though she can swap between tokens fairly freely. It also does make her have to spend an SP to use a bearer as a source for her spells, and now expressly lets the bearer deliver touch spells for her (as a reaction).



The idea, here, is that a bearer calls to her for aid, she shifts her attention to his token, and then she can back him up with her magic. All without her being anywhere near the danger.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd like to second the request for an extension. Just had a lot of work come up in the last month, and haven't been able to review anyone else's fully because of it (as well as neglecting my own).