What is V's gender

[2D8HP]

Male.
Haley knows V for a long time and would certainly know whether V is male or female. In conversation with Bandana Haley calls herself "Lead woman of this comic" when V is more important as a character. Hence, V is most likely male.

Could be, or Haley may have called herself "lead women" because when Roy was temporarily dead she was in charge of the OotS, 'sides Haley referred to the rest of the OotS besides V and herself as "the boys" when they shared a room.

Mostly I want to see Vaarsuvius get back with Inkyrius, but I'm okay with V deciding to bear the first Half-Elf/half-Halfling child, which no matter the biology V can do 'cause Wizard, and the debate still won't be settled, 'cause only Vaarsuvius gets to say V's identity anyway.

By the way, where's the OP?

[hroþila]

Male.
Haley knows V for a long time and would certainly know whether V is male or female. In conversation with Bandana Haley calls herself "Lead woman of this comic" when V is more important as a character. Hence, V is most likely male.

No. V is genderqueer, i.e. non-binary, which means they don't have to be either male or female, and thus the foundation of your reasoning is flawed.

[Kish]

I also think the assertion that Vaarsuvius is more important as a character than Haley is...questionableflawedbonkers.

[zimmerwald1915]

I also think the assertion that Vaarsuvius is more important as a character than Haley is...questionableflawedbonkers.

Screentime alone goes the other way. Thematic resonance is subjective, but I'll take the storylone that doesn't ask me to sympathizers with {redacted} over one that does any day.

[Kish]

I have to wonder if the idea that Vaarsuvius is a more important character than Haley has anything to do with assumptions based on an internet D&D concept that rhymes with "fears."

[Goblin_Priest]

I have to wonder if the idea that Vaarsuvius is a more important character than Haley has anything to do with assumptions based on an internet D&D concept that rhymes with "fears."

It's tiers! Tiers! I know this one!

[KorvinStarmast]

I also think the assertion that Vaarsuvius is more important as a character than Haley is...questionableflawedbonkers.

Who has killed more beings to date? Via that metric (which is not the only metric to be sure) V eclipses Haley by quite a bit. First book is called "dungeon crawling fools" and in dungeon crawling, all that killing and murderhoboing is a thing. We then get to the story as it grows. V during battle for Azure City. Holds up an entire flank until spell slots are gone. Haley is doing ... what? Who returns from hell to save the party's remnants when it is surrounded by Tarquin's army? Uh, wait, that isn't Haley.

Haley Character arc: internal drama. (With a sweet ending)
V character arc: world shaking implications. (With an uncomfortable at best ending ... and I am not sure it's ended yet)

While I personally like Haley's character more than V's, as I have a heavy personal rogue bias, Haley as more important isn't a slam dunk. (Her role in getting Roy raised, however, cannot be understated in importance IMO).

PS: this is a 3.5e world. V is Tier 1. Haley is at best Tier 3/4. How goes your primary Arcane Caster is very important for your party's success. On a "game" consideration basis (yes, Rich does not optimize the party) V is very important.

PS: V's gender. Unimportant.

[Finback]

"What is V's gender?"

The answer should be put to a poll.

"Yes", or "no".

[2D8HP]

[...lot's of good points..]

All that is true, but it discounts that Haley is a leather-clad archer which is BADASS, while Vaarsuvius is a robe-draped Magic-User, so no contest.

"What is V's gender?"

The answer should be put to a poll.

"Yes", or "no".

I nod for "Nope".

[Zmeoaice]

Who has killed more beings to date? Via that metric (which is not the only metric to be sure) V eclipses Haley by quite a bit. First book is called "dungeon crawling fools" and in dungeon crawling, all that killing and murderhoboing is a thing. We then get to the story as it grows. V during battle for Azure City. Holds up an entire flank until spell slots are gone. Haley is doing ... what? Who returns from hell to save the party's remnants when it is surrounded by Tarquin's army? Uh, wait, that isn't Haley.

Haley Character arc: internal drama. (With a sweet ending)
V character arc: world shaking implications. (With an uncomfortable at best ending ... and I am not sure it's ended yet)

While I personally like Haley's character more than V's, as I have a heavy personal rogue bias, Haley as more important isn't a slam dunk. (Her role in getting Roy raised, however, cannot be understated in importance IMO).

PS: this is a 3.5e world. V is Tier 1. Haley is at best Tier 3/4. How goes your primary Arcane Caster is very important for your party's success. On a "game" consideration basis (yes, Rich does not optimize the party) V is very important.

PS: V's gender. Unimportant.

Which character is more important since it came from Haley. So it's more which character she thinks is more important. Which would be her.

Furthermore in terms of the team dynamic she is more important. She is 2nd in command after Roy, developed a romance with another member, and took control of the team for a while. V's deal with the devils was v's own thing and only Roy knew about it.

[Liquor Box]

In term of story, or who is closer to being the lead, I don't find any of the metric suggested at all convincing. I think they are equally important as both being part of the protagonist party, with neither having anything special about them in terms of story (as Roy and perhaps Durkon arguably do) to elevate them above the other members of the order.

[2D8HP]

In term of story, or who is closer to being the lead....

Besides "lead charactets", in construction work a "lead man" or just "lead" colloquially is the person who you get directions from, but they're not formally a foreman (or superintendent).

Also in the craft trades with The City the "lead" is the "acting supervisor" when there hasn't been a permanent appointment yet.

For example Jeanine was "lead" (not "lead women" or "lead person", it's still a male dominated job) of the electricians for about a year until some guy got a lateral transfer from the school district and became the permanent public works electrical shop supervisor (after getting a taste of desk work she shortly afterwards became a "building and grounds planner" so being "lead" led to a promotion, just not the obvious one). Generally when you respect the person and the job they're doing you call them "the lead" and when you don't you call them "the acting".

Haley was definitely "the lead" of the OotS in the sense that I'm familiar with the term upon Roy's death, though I suppose "lead women" rather than "lead" does imply "main female protagonist.

Hmmm.... thinking of Jeanine reminds me a bit about "gender presentation" in that at my former boss's retirement dinner I could recognize the guys despite them being in suits instead of jeans, but I didn't recognize the women sitting at my table until she spoke and I realised that it was Jeanine in a dress and make-up instead of overalls and a bandanna on her head that I usually saw her in. Funny that.

[Delta]

While I personally like Haley's character more than V's, as I have a heavy personal rogue bias, Haley as more important isn't a slam dunk. (Her role in getting Roy raised, however, cannot be understated in importance IMO).

But her considering herself the "lead woman" is pretty much a slam dunk. When Roy went down, she's the one that stepped up and took over the "leadership" position more than anyone else in the Order, while V sulked and almost lost his/her **** very hard. Following your logic, you'd have to doubt Roy being the lead character of the strip as well because he's obviously much, much less powerful than V.

[Liquor Box]

Besides "lead charactets", in construction work a "lead man" or just "lead" colloquially is the person who you get directions from, but they're not formally a foreman (or superintendent).

Also in the craft trades with The City the "lead" is the "acting supervisor" when there hasn't been a permanent appointment yet.

For example Jeanine was "lead" (not "lead women" or "lead person", it's still a male dominated job) of the electricians for about a year until some guy got a lateral transfer from the school district and became the permanent public works electrical shop supervisor (after getting a taste of desk work she shortly afterwards became a "building and grounds planner" so being "lead" led to a promotion, just not the obvious one). Generally when you respect the person and the job they're doing you call them "the lead" and when you don't you call them "the acting".

Haley was definitely "the lead" of the OotS in the sense that I'm familiar with the term upon Roy's death, though I suppose "lead women" rather than "lead" does imply "main female protagonist.

Hmmm.... thinking of Jeanine reminds me a bit about "gender presentation" in that at my former boss's retirement dinner I could recognize the guys despite them being in suits instead of jeans, but I didn't recognize the women sitting at my table until she spoke and I realised that it was Jeanine in a dress and make-up instead of overalls and a bandanna on her head that I usually saw her in. Funny that.

What Trillium said was

"Haley calls herself "Lead woman of this comic" when V is more important as a character."

From that I think Hayley was suggesting that she is the most important female character, not that she was the closest to being the boss out of all the females. If she had said "I am the lead woman of the Order", then it might have been in reference to her being second in charge.

[Fincher]

"Lead woman of this comic" pertains to the perspective of the reader rather than the perspective of the characters living in the world, and it could be taken two different ways:

1. The most leading character who happens to be a woman.

2. The character who plays the most leading role in terms of being a woman.

The first you could argue about, but it's understandable how someone might see Haley as above V, including Haley herself. The second can't be V, because her gender is ambiguous for readers of the comic. Even if she is female, her female-ness does not take the lead in any way. Haley being female, on the other hand, was front and center at the beginning of the comic.

[SavageWombat]

Technically, if I have this right - V's sex is unknown (to the readership), and V's gender presentation is … ambiguous? Is there a preferred term for "exclusively wears fashions not associated with male/female"?

[2D8HP]

...Is there a preferred term for "exclusively wears fashions not associated with male/female"?

Wizard in robes?
("Uni-sex" was used for some reason In the '70's for haircutting places that cut both men's and women's hair, so maybe that fits?)

[zimmerwald1915]

Besides "lead charactets", in construction work a "lead man" or just "lead" colloquially is the person who you get directions from, but they're not formally a foreman (or superintendent).

Also in the craft trades with The City the "lead" is the "acting supervisor" when there hasn't been a permanent appointment yet.

For example Jeanine was "lead" (not "lead women" or "lead person", it's still a male dominated job) of the electricians for about a year until some guy got a lateral transfer from the school district and became the permanent public works electrical shop supervisor (after getting a taste of desk work she shortly afterwards became a "building and grounds planner" so being "lead" led to a promotion, just not the obvious one). Generally when you respect the person and the job they're doing you call them "the lead" and when you don't you call them "the acting".

Haley was definitely "the lead" of the OotS in the sense that I'm familiar with the term upon Roy's death, though I suppose "lead women" rather than "lead" does imply "main female protagonist.

Hmmm.... thinking of Jeanine reminds me a bit about "gender presentation" in that at my former boss's retirement dinner I could recognize the guys despite them being in suits instead of jeans, but I didn't recognize the women sitting at my table until she spoke and I realised that it was Jeanine in a dress and make-up instead of overalls and a bandanna on her head that I usually saw her in. Funny that.

Surely the aptest industry comparison isn't construction, but show business? There, the "leading man" is the actor with the highest billing, and the "leading lady" the actress with the highest billing. Haley appears before Vaarsuvius in the marching order and on the cast page. She also, again, gets more screentime, which is associated with higher billing.

[137beth]

V's gender is genderqueer. In Blood Runs in the Family, the Giant describes V as a 'genderqueer person'. Genderqueer does not mean 'undisclosed man' or 'undisclosed woman'. It means genderqueer. Asking if V is a man or a woman is like asking if a chopstick is a knife or a fork.

Well said, I think I'm going to have to use that line in some future conversation.

[Bavarian itP]

Gender: Genderqueer (neither, both or combination of male and female)

Sex: We don't really know and probably never will. I would say female.

Thanks for making that distinction. People using "gender" and "sex" as synonyms makes me really sick.

[Trillium]

No. V is genderqueer, i.e. non-binary, which means they don't have to be either male or female, and thus the foundation of your reasoning is flawed.

Well, I'm not big on those psychological shenanigans. Its biology that matters anyway. Unless elves can be biologically gender-queer, which would be... interesting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, I'm not big on those psychological shenanigans. Its biology that matters anyway. Unless elves can be biologically gender-queer, which would be... interesting.

Biology is NOT what matters. Biology is literally a description of the plumbing used for waste disposal and reproduction. Given that humans (and by extension elves, which are "humans but slightly different") are different from other animals due to our "psychological shenanigans" (i.e. our self-awareness) and not our plumbing, I find this approach quite de-humanizing.

GW

[hroþila]

Biology is also a lot more complicated than Trillium thinks. It's not a simple switch between male and female sex, it's an accumulation of traits that do not necessarily align.

[2D8HP]

Well, I'm not big on those psychological shenanigans. Its biology that matters anyway. Unless elves can be biologically gender-queer, which would be... interesting.

If I understand the term right "gender" is about identity, so cultural/psychological/social, and it used to be a linguistic term (my high school Latin teacher in the 1980's told us "people have a sex, words have a gender") until anthropologist grabbed it, and "sex" is biological.

Antway, what the biology is for Stickverse (based in part on 3.5 D&D) Elves is up to Rich, but some WotC 5e D&D Elves may biologically be female, male, both, or neither per Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes:

Spoiler: The relevant sidebar in MToF

Show

"THE BLESSED OF CORELLON
Ever changing, mirthful, and beautiful, the primal elves could assume whatever sex they liked. When they bowed to Lolth's influence and chose to fix their physical forms, elves lost ability to transform in this way. Yet occasionally elves are born who are so androgynous that they are proclaimed to be among the blessed of Corellon - living symbols of the god's love and of the primal elves' original fluid state of being. Many of Corellon's chief priests bear this blessing.
The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long rest - a miracle celebrated by all sorts except Drow. (The DM decides whether an elf can manifest this miracle.) Darl Elves find this ability to be terrifying and characterize it as a curse, for it could destabilize their entire society. If Corellon's blessing manifests in a drow, that elf usually flees to the surface world to seek shelter among those dedicated to Corellon."

Some details are in

Spoiler: this video

Show

(at about 10 minutes into the video)

[The Extinguisher]

Also, we dont actually know the "sex" (god i hate that distinction its only ever used to hurt trans people) of any of the Order. So all of them are trans actually.

In fact every character in the comic is trans now

[factotum]

Also, we dont actually know the "sex" (god i hate that distinction its only ever used to hurt trans people) of any of the Order.

We know what all of them self-identify as apart from V, and in Roy's case we know for a fact that he's male, because the Belt of Opposite Gender turned him into a woman.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We know what all of them self-identify as apart from V, and in Roy's case we know for a fact that he's male, because the Belt of Opposite Gender turned him into a woman.

Also based on which bits are pixelated after his resurrection. In a PG-13-equivalent comic, that indicates male sexual organs. Same for Elan on new year's eve.

But in all honesty, I think the Extinguisher was being purposely flippant for effect.

GW

[Fincher]

Durkon impregnated a woman.

[The Extinguisher]

Okay, ill only give you Durkon - barring magical fertility or whatever, but stylistic censorship definitely doesnt tell you what their junk looks like. And even knowing that doesnt tell you if they are trans or not.

I guess also V isnt trans cause they were probably never assigned a gender to begin with

[Fincher]

"Nale! Stop hitting your twin brother in his soft undeveloped baby skull!"