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2018-06-20, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Question: Regarding the spells slots for the multi-class Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster. Do you add up all the levels and THEN divide by 3 or do you do each class separate? Seeing how at one point I will be level 5 fighter and level 4 rogue. This would mean I could be level 2 spell caster (5/3 rounded down is 1, and 4/3 rounded down is 1, for a total of 2) OR I add up all the levels to 9, then divide by 3 giving me level 3?
Feedback:
Looking for general feedback if anyone sees any glaring holes in the build. I am aware this is not a meta-max character, but if there any real problems or improvements to be made I am happy to hear them.
Theme:
I have been messing about with this for some time, been having fun trying to figure out different combinations. Basically its a bit of jack-of-all-trades by maximizing the number of feats/ability score improvements I could take, and spreading skills out by multiclassing.
As I see it:
Pros: High AC, Good offensive and utility abilities. Rogue like skills with front line staying power, and the ability to throw spells around.
Cons: Multiclass means less impressive high level skills / abilities, spells don't necessarily mix well.
Race: Human (Variant)
Starting Stats:
Str 11
Dex 16 (15+1)
Con 12
Int 16 (15+1)
Wis 10
Cha 8
Equipment:
2 x Rapier
Dagger
Handaxe
Light Hammer
Breastplate or Halfplate with Medium Armor Master
Feat List
Feat # | Character Level | Feat Name
1 1st Dual Wielder
2 5th War Caster (Replaced Defensive Duelist)
3 8th +2 Dex (18)
4 10th Alert
5 14th Resiliant +1 Dex (19)
6 16th +1 Dex, +1 Int (20Dex - 17Int)
7 18th Observant (18 Int)
8 20th +2 Int, Dungeon Delver/Lucky/Medium Armor Master/Mobile (Not sure which to take?)
Skills:
Human: Perception
Fighter: Acro and Athletic
Criminal: Stealth and Deception
Rogue: Investigation and Thieves tools
Proficiencies:
Perception (Expertise)
Investigation (Expertise)
Stealth (Expertise)
Thieves Tools (Expertise)
Acrobatics
Athletics
Deception
All weapons and armor, shields
Cantrips:
EK: Fire Bolt
EK: Mending
AT: Mage Hand
AT: Minor Illusion
AT: Light
AT: Booming Blade
1st Level Spells:
EK: Grease (with Firebolt = fire trap, lure enemy out with minor illusion then set them on fire)
EK: Shield
EK: Absorb Elements
EK Chromatic Orb
AT: Disguise Self
AT: Charm Person
AT: Find Familiar
2nd Level Spells
EK: Darkness
EK: Hold Person (8th level spell)
AT: Mirror Image
AT: Invisibility
AT: Suggestion
AT: Darkvision (8th Level Spell) (synergy with Darkness)
Level Progression:
Level 1 fighter: Fighting Style: Defense, Second Wind, Dual Wielder
2: F1 / Rogue 1, Expertise: Thieves Tools and Investigation
3: F2 / R1, Action surge
4: F3 / R1, Eldritch Knight (Bond Rapiers; Fire Bolt, Mending; Shield, Greese, Absorb Elements)
5: F4 / R1, War Caster
6: F4 / R2, Cunning Action
7: F4 / R3, Arcane Trickster (Mage Hand, Light, Minor Illusion; Disguise Self, Charm Person, Find Familiar), 2d6 Sneak attack
8: F4 / R4, +2 Dex
9: F5 / R4, Extra Attack
10: F6 / R4. Alert
11: F6 / R5, Uncanny Dodge, 3d6 sneak attack
12: F6 / R6, Expertise Perception and Stealth
13: F6 / R7, Evasion, 4d6 Sneak Attack
14: F6 / R8, Resiliant +1 Dex
15: F7 / R8, War Magic: Cantrip + Weapon attack as bonus
16: F8 / R8, +1 dex, +1 int
17: F8 / R9, Roguish Archetype, Magical Ambush, If hidden enemy has disadvantage on spells, 5D6 Sneak attack
18: F8 / R10, Observant +1 Int
19: F8 / R11, Reliable Talent
20: F8 / R12, +2 Int, Dungeon Delver/Lucky/Medium Armor Master/Mobile
Thanks for having a look :)Last edited by Menagroth; 2018-06-21 at 02:26 AM.
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2018-06-20, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
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Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
As far as spell slots go: "You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster feature." That seems to pretty unambiguous to me: divide your Fighter and Rogue levels by two before adding them together.
You might not want to take both defensive duelist and the shield spell. They do basically the same thing: reaction to add to your AC. Shield does it far better, because it's a much lower cost to use, and it sticks around until the start of your next turn. Really, I just wouldn't take defensive duelist. It's... not very good. Medium Armor Master is a more effective defensive feat, IMO.
Along those lines: Dual Wielder only helps you if you are actually dual wielding, which requires you to attack with the Attack action. Using a SCAG cantrip is not sufficient to make a bonus action attack with your off-hand weapon. If you intend to use SCAG cantrips with your action a lot, then you probably don't want Dual Wielder. With the EK's bonus action cantrip ability, though... you don't even really need to use dual wielding to get a good bonus action attack. Having a weapon in each hand actually hinders you from casting spells with somatic components (unless you have the Warcaster feat), though that's pretty commonly handwaved.
Observant is... not a great feat. Medium Armor Master, Lucky, and Mobile are all much stronger choices IMO. I'd also stay away from Dungeon Delver unless you know traps are a big part of your campaign, and... maybe even then.
Another thought: your Intelligence only matters for spells that have either a) a spell attack roll or b) a saving throw. You're not using very many of those, and the ones you are using are low-level spells that don't stay exceptionally relevant once you get into higher levels (e.g. Chromatic Orb). You might consider losing some of the spell attack/saving throw spells in favor of SCAG cantrips (which make weapon attacks, using your Dexterity) and dropping your Int. Even if you do want to keep your Int up a little, I'd highly recommend at least 14 Con. Especially if you're going to be anywhere near the front lines, but really... 14 Con is a good idea for everyone.
If there is a "glaring hole" in your build, though, it's that you don't get Extra Attack until level 9. I can see maybe taking a rogue level at level 2 (if it's important to your character concept and you're leveling slowly) but I wouldn't delay your Extra Attack until any later than level 6.
Anyway. Looks like it'll be a fun character to play! You'll have a lot of options in and out of combat.
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2018-06-20, 03:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2016
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
I disagree that it is unambiguous, and I also disagree that this is what it points to.
It can equally mean:
You have 9 levels in fighter or rogue.
Divide this by 3 and round down.
If I were DMing you I would use this second interpretation, because otherwise you're getting completely shafted. EKs and ATs are 1/3rd Casters, so they should get a third of their total levels.
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2018-06-20, 03:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Weirdly this means you can lose slots advancing in level.
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2018-06-20, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Yup. Had that happen at my table once. Caused some... consternation. We spent quite some time checking the book and the errata at the time. Concluded that the rules said they would lose spell slots, but also screw the rules. Followed the rules from the level after so nothing was actually taken away, just slower progression.
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2018-06-20, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
"You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster feature."
Right, i should have made this part of my original post. this seems to read that the 3 groups are added together independently before dividing by the appropriate number. That is where my confusion is. I was not able to find any threads out there asking this question... I saw one reference who assumed this was accurate in their post but didn't give clarity.
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2018-06-20, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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2018-06-20, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2016
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
this seems to read that the 3 groups are added together independently before dividing by the appropriate number. .
At worst they're trying to nerf MCing with third casters, but the much more likely explanation is that it's just a poorly worded paragraph.
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2018-06-20, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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2018-06-20, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
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2018-06-20, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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2018-06-20, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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2018-06-20, 11:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Brazil
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
- Nothing says that your Grease will catch on fire with a Fire Bolt, and it seems that even if it did it would just be more effort then using Alchemist's Fire or whatever.
- If you plan on dual-wielding (and you shouldn't), then you'll need War Caster to cast any somatic spells.Last edited by Specter; 2018-06-20 at 11:04 PM.
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2018-06-20, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
A better combo would be Grease + an effect that moves someone into it such as a shove. They'll tip and have a hard time getting out of it if they fail their save next turn. For added fun you can hit them with Lightning Lure from the edge of it to pull them to you again and, assuming you can get enough actions, keep pushing them back and yanking them to you again like a yo-yo. Practical? No, Fun. Definitely! >:)
Last edited by samcifer; 2018-06-20 at 11:26 PM.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2018-06-20, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
As an experiment, i just made a character on the javascript character creator and as a lv. 12 character that's 6 EK / 6 AT, you get 4 lv. 1 spell slots and 3 Lv. 2 spell slots per long rest.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2018-06-21, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2018-06-21, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Yes good point on the war caster.. Forgot about somatic issues... and duel wielding might not be perfect, but I like it so :)
Regarding greese and fire bolt... pretty sure most GMs would allow for it... and maybe if done right could be like napalm and burn over many turns? Or maybe its just a larger fire ball than just the bolt... bolt damage + burning greese fire... and the greese is a 10 ft square so it could hit multiple enemies... I suppose if the DM said that wouldn't work I could switch these spells up.
Thanks!
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2018-06-21, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Thanks!
The reason I have Defensive duelist is because it isn't a spell, so I can always have it ready. HOWEVER, since I totally forgot about having hands free for casting spells, I should probably replace it with War Caster.
Regarding Duel wielder Feat, the idea is this character is in the thick of combat and using the spells to supplement. Easier to cast a fire bolt at a long range target than throw a dagger, but sticks with the rapiers in melee for damage. It also adds +1 to my AC. Even if using booming blade, this means I can always make a second attack. And with my build as is... War Magic doesn't come until level 15... which is cool, the dude progresses from using duel wielding weapons to duel wielding spells and weapons. Kinda fits the theme well.
Observant is nice since my character is the scout of the group as well. And it gives +1 int so it helps me get that to 20. Of course that leads to...
True about the intelligence... 14 con is probably more important than 16 int... but :D I like him being super smart. Quality suggestion though.
Extra attack is pretty nice.. but I guess I get sneak attack damage, AT spells and +2 dex the way I have it now... And with duel wielding I basically get 2 attacks anyway... a third would be dope though. Feels like a coin flip.
Thanks for the suggestions!Last edited by Menagroth; 2018-06-24 at 11:58 AM.
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2018-06-21, 03:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
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2018-06-21, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
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2018-06-21, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Yesh! You'll only get 3 lv. 1 spell slots per day as an EK 5 / AT 4. That's why I'd rather play a half wizard / half EK than a pure EK. Way too slow on spell progression otherwise.
You can experiment with the builder more yourself to try other ways. The spell slots per day are listed above the ist of available spells on the finished character sheet:
http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.html"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2018-06-21, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Brazil
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
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2018-06-22, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
This is wrong. Your character level is 9, and because both classes are 1/3 casters you would have the spell slots of a 3rd level FULL caster.
So your spell slots would be 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spell slots.
At level 20 you'd have the same amount of spell slots a level 20 arcane trickster or eldritch knight would have even though you're splitting classes because it's your total caster level that matters, not class level, when determining slots.
However, when determining what spells you can use/learn you'll be limited to what spell levels those classes can use at those individual levels instead of the spell slot level.
Level 9 arcane trickster can only learn level 2 spells. So an 11/9 split you'd be limited to 2nd level spells because both EK and AT only get 3rd level spells at class level 13.
Also of note for rogues, your sneak attack only triggers once per TURN. Not per attack. It will work on op attacks so sentinel is a good feat, as is warcaster. And if you use a blade coast cantrip like booming blade you don't get to multi-attack unless you're hasted. Worse, you won't get haste until level 13 arcane trickster.
And another note: Darkness and the spell darkvision do not syngergize at all. You need devilsight to see through magical darkness. You're better off with fog cloud at 1st level.
Honestly, this build, though it sounds interesting, takes the core elements of each class and throws them out. Eldritch Knights are among the tankiest of tanks in the game due to heavy armor, shield spells, cantrips like lightning lash and booming blade. Arcane trickster is one of the sneakiest characters in the game that can control the battlefield with a few well placed spells to stop an enemy in their tracks with suggestion, Tasha's hideous laughter, etc.
For the OP, I'd ask myself what I intend to bring to the party with this build, then I'd spec from there. Do you want to be one of the group's primary DPS? Do you want to be the skillmonkey? The tank? Rogue/fighter is a great combo for a damage dealer. Swashbuckler or Scout/battlemaster or Swashbuckler/samurai is incredibly potent. I just don't think an EK/AT combo is all that it's cracked up to be.
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2018-06-22, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Bring it up where it matters. Another "illogical" ruling was reverted recently. So...
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2018-06-22, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Well, it's an old character generator that only uses phb content. I know it also mistakenly adds both unarmored defenses on a monk/barbarian mc or adds unarmored defense to the draconic sorc natural armor effect for inaccurate ac scores, but that's the only good and free character creator I have access to. I refuse to spend $300 for the official one on the dnd website.
"I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"
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2018-06-28, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Spell slots, Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster build (+ Feedback)
Howdy!
First, thanks for pointing out darkness vs darvision lack of synergy... Totally missed that. I might still keep those spells as they are super handy any way, but its good to know the mechanics!
As far as what I am bringing, well... background of character is a guy who was brought up as a fighter in his family, but was far more intelligent than the average folks in his town/family. Long story short, family was murdered, struck out on his own to find vengeance, joined a thieves guild to gain knowledge of adversaries and then began studying arcane arts on his own using his superior intellect to discover spells etc.
This turns him into a fighter/skillmonkey/skullduggerer with spells.
Note: I understand this is not the most optimized combo of skills, but its been fun to draw up and play through level 7! Good in a melee, spells augment offense, defense and sneakiness. Its a good time!