Need Help With a Gish

[Allanimal]

In this thread, I postulated that the Duskblade would be a better martial class for the "tin can wizard":

Gish options:

• Tin Can Wizard = Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 2/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK +7. Race has to be dwarf, but you can cast spells in full plate armor.

I think Duskblade 1 instead of fighter 1 is a more interesting start to this. Sure you give up a few HP, a bonus feat, and the sweet, sweet fighter skill list, but gain a better will save, some useful spell-likes and INT-based spells, and an improved skill list. It would be cool to work Duskblade 3 into that build to get the arcane channeling, but not sure if it is possible to do that and still get 9th-level wizard casting...

So, I'm trying to figure out how to get a Gish with +16 BAB and 9th level Wizard (or Wu Jen) spells at 20th. Is it possible.
I want Duskblade 3 and at least Runesmith 1 (though 3 would be nice for sharing runes and 5 for permanent rune).

I'm planning this for my backup character for the game I'm in now, at the moment we're 8th level. Please note my GM has a couple house rules, one of which is that you can't start a 3rd prestige class without finishing at least one of the 1st two.
(There are others, but they mostly aren't relevant)
I like the idea of Wu Jen as the arcane class, but would do Wizard if it won't work with Wu Jen.

What I have so far is:

Dwarf
1: Duskblade 1 / Scribe Scroll (Needed for Runesmith) / BAB=1
2: Duskblade 2 / Bonus: Combat Casting (Needed for Abjurant Champion) BAB = 2
3: Duskblade 3 / Metamagic School Focus BAB = 3
4: Wu Jen 1 (or Wizard 1) BAB = 3.5 / Wu Jen Casting = CL1 / 1st Level Spells
5: Wu Jen 2 BAB = 4 / Wu Jen Casting = CL2 / 1st Level Spells
6: Runesmith 1 / Practiced Spellcaster / BAB = 4.5 / Wu Jen Casting = CL6 / 2nd Level Spells
7: Runesmith 2 / BAB = 5 / Wu Jen Casting = CL7 / 2nd Level Spells
8: Abjurant Champion 1 / BAB = 6 / Wu Jen Casting = CL8 / 3rd Level Spells (This is where I would start if my current character dies in the next session or two...)
9: Abjurant Champion 2 / feat TBD / BAB 7 / Wu Jen Casting = CL9 / 3rd Level Spells
10: Abjurant Champion 3 / BAB 8 / Wu Jen Casting = CL10 / 4th Level Spells
11: Abjurant Champion 4 / BAB 9 / Wu Jen Casting = CL11 / 4th Level Spells
12: Abjurant Champion 5 / feat TBD / BAB 10 / Wu Jen Casting = CL12 / 5th Level Spells

Eldrich knight from level 13 on would advance BAB but miss out on 1 CL.
Going up to RuneSmith Runesmith 3 would get the Share spells class feature (nice), to Runsmith 5 to get permanent rune (OK) would drop 1 more BAB (OK).
Getting Wu Jen 3 would get Spell Secret (nice) and drop more BAB, but in the end it would still make it.

13: EK 1 / BAB 11 / Wu Jen Casting = CL12 / 5th Level Spells / Bonus Feat TBD
14: EK 2 / BAB 12 / Wu Jen Casting = CL13 / 6th Level Spells
15: EK 3 / BAB 13 / FEAT TBD / Wu Jen Casting = CL14 / 6th Level Spells
16: EK 4 / BAB 14 / Wu Jen Casting = CL15 / 7th Level Spells
17: Runesmith 3 / BAB 14.5 / Wu Jen Casting = CL16 / 7th Level Spells
18: Runesmith 4 / BAB 15 / FEAT TBD / Wu Jen Casting = CL17 / 8th Level Spells
19: Runesmith 5 / BAB 15.5 / Wu Jen Casting = CL18 / 8th Level Spells
20: Wu Jen 3 / BAB 16 / Wu Jen Casting = CL19 / 9th Level Spells

Swapping out an EK level with Runesmith 3 would get the Share spells class feature (Good) but lose one BAB (OK).


So:
Duskblade 3 / WuJen 3 / Runesmith 5 / AbjChmp 5 / Eldrich Knight 4
Will do the trick.
But Eldrich Knight is kind of boring.
Is there any other class that advances arcane casting with good BAB?

Any other ideas how to make this work?

Suggestions for feats would be nice too.

Thanks in advance!

[Piggy Knowles]

It’s a different direction, but I’ve previously built an illumian Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5, using Touch of Summoning to qualify for NDB and Fey Bloodline and Mother Cyst to pick up some nice channeling spells like irresistible dance. It can also chain up to 9ths via Versatile Spellcaster (Fey Bloodline means it has 9th-level spells known, so it doesn’t need any Heighten cheese to make it work). End result is +19 BAB, full attack channeling and 9ths.

[Nifft]

But Eldrich Knight is kind of boring.
Is there any other class that advances arcane casting with good BAB?

Any other ideas how to make this work?

Knight Phantom is like an Eldritch Knight, except better in most ways: http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...050706a&page=4


A popular 2-level dip for a gish is Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 1, both of which are full-BAB and advance spellcasting.


Duskblade is okay, but one level of Barbarian might be better, especially if you can take Spirit Lion Totem ACF for Pounce -- that makes your early Alter Self forms much more potent.

[Allanimal]

Knight Phantom is like an Eldritch Knight, except better in most ways: http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...050706a&page=4


A popular 2-level dip for a gish is Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 1, both of which are full-BAB and advance spellcasting.


Duskblade is okay, but one level of Barbarian might be better, especially if you can take Spirit Lion Totem ACF for Pounce -- that makes your early Alter Self forms much more potent.

Knight Phantom is prettey nice compared to Eldrich knight. I wonder if I can get phantom steed on the Wu Jen list somehow?

dragonslayer has some harsh entry requirements, and spellsword is also pretty nice. But due to house rules, dipping a lot of PrCs is not easy. I’ll have to think if they can be worked in.

Unfortunately Complete Champion isn’t one of the books the DM allows by default (he doesn’t like it for some reason), so the pouncing barbarian is likely out.

It’s a different direction, but I’ve previously built an illumian Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5, using Touch of Summoning to qualify for NDB and Fey Bloodline and Mother Cyst to pick up some nice channeling spells like irresistible dance. It can also chain up to 9ths via Versatile Spellcaster (Fey Bloodline means it has 9th-level spells known, so it doesn’t need any Heighten cheese to make it work). End result is +19 BAB, full attack channeling and 9ths.

Yes, that is a different direction. I’ll consider it... not sure if Nar Demonbinder would be allowed.

You’ve both given me some good ideas. Thanks! I’d love to hear more.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Duskblade 1 is an interesting substitution for Fighter 1 in this sort of build. I'd go for it if I was building a gish that somehow wasn't feat starved. Duskblade 3 complicates things without netting much. For standard action arcane channeling, BaB, and some low level spells, you lose three spell levels in your main casting class, and by your specification you can only lose 3 spellcasting levels. That means any build that advances regular wizard/wujen spell casting must advance spellcasting every non-duskblade level and have mostly full BaB. You lose 2-3 points just advancing wizard or wu jen, so you're in a bind. I have two methods, one that makes more use of Duskblade and one that's just for funsies.

MAD and inelegant but workable
Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/[2/3 casting full BaB] 3. The last part could be Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/[BaB or caster progression] 1, or just EK 3 or Knight Phantom 3. Duskblade grants the level 3 spells required for SC, the Bard level with able learner gets you the skills you need and bardic music. SC and spell-progressing classes grant you 9ths. Dduskblade + gish PrCs get you the BaB.

Benefits: It does what you want, as it gets 16 BaB by level 18 and ninth level spells by 18 or 19, depending on how you finish the build. Unlike many gish builds, it isn't a complete disaster in the mid levels, since it's basically a Duskblade with 1 dead level and then you start getting full sorcerer casting (note the part where you can channel Irresistible Dance at level 13). By the time you have issues casting in armor you should be able to afford 0% ASF armor anyway, since you're wearing it for the enchantments.
Issues: You kinda need to start with Bard 1 and Human or Changeling for able learner due to skill prereqs, so no dwarf or runesmith, and the bard theme is inelegant. You need INT and CHA for separate casting styles (and INT for skill points), and physicals due to gish, so it's MAD. It's feat starved and heavily multi-classed, but that's par for the course. But all of that is the cost of trying to shoehorn Duskblade into an actual full casting gish.

Technically correct answer that violates the spirit of your request
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/[anything advancing wizard spellcasting] 9/Duskblade 3
The idea is to persist Divine Power via Arcane Disciple (Celestia, Competition, Orc, Pride, War, Hero if you count Shaman domains, others I've possibly forgotten) so you can focus on classes that progress spellcasting without worrying about also increasing BaB. Vigorously protect against dispel magic and you're set. You could do it without Incantatrix, but the BaB would come online much later and you'd need other metamagic cost reducers. Of course, the biggest issue is that Duskblade 3 is a complete afterthought, but there you go.

[Malimar]

dumb but almost correct answer: Duskblade 5/Runesmith 5/Ur-Priest 10 never mind you specified Wizard or Wu Jen spells

[Dread_Head]

With three levels of Duskblade you are going to struggle to get 9th level Wu Jen spells whilst keeping +16 BAB. The build you map out in the OP misses out on 9th level spells, I think you forgot to skip the level of caster advancement for Eldritch Knight. With your house rules restrictions on PrCs I think the only option is Duskblade 3 / Wu Jen 2 / Runesmith 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Exorcist 8. If you use fractional BAB you can switch a level from Runesmith to Wu Jen which would nab a spell secret. Sacred Exorcist is just there to fill out the levels, you could switch it out for a different full arcane casting mid BAB class but they are pretty thin on the ground. If you can somehow get Hide, Spot and Search as class skills then Unseen Seer would be an option but that's probably more bother than it's worth.

For feats you'll want gish staples like Practised Spellcaster, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Knowledge Devotion and Minor Shapeshift. You might also want to grab Obtain Familiar and possibly Improved Familiar as an additional combat buddy who shares your spells. At mid to high levels you probably want Quicken Spell to improve the action economy of your spellcasting and possibly some metamagic reducers to go alongside it.

[Allanimal]

OK. so real life got in the way for a bit, but I was able to work on this a bit more...

So, levels 1 & 2 will be full BAB classes. I like the Duskblade for the INT synergy, and 2nd level gives the bonus feat of Combat Casting, which is needed for Abjurant Champion. But I was thinking that maybe a dwarf could use the bonus to movement from a Barbarian, so considering Duskblade 1 / Barb 1 for the 1st 2 levels. Thoughts?

The next three would then have to be Wu Jen (or Wizard).

At 6th level, the BAB isn't high enough to go into Abjurant Champion, so I thought Ruathar would work. (Nice short PRC to work within the house rule of only 1 "open" PrCs). But the earliest to meet the reqs without full BAB or full casting progression would be 6th level (9 skill ranks). But Runesmith is doable at 6th.

So I'm looking at now
Duskblade 1 / Duskblade 2 or Barbarian 1 / Wu Jen (or Wizard) 3 / Runesmith 1 / Ruathar 3 / Abujurant Champion 5 / X 5.

Where X is at least 3/4 BAB and 100% advancing Wu Jen (or Wizard).
Sacred Exorcist looks promising, but I'd like to hear for other possibilities. Maybe Unseen Seer, but many of the skills would be cross class.
This would get me 9th level spells and 15 BAB (we're using fractional BAB). I had originally wanted 16 BAB, but I'm willing to relax that criteria.

If possible, I'd like to get into Abjurant Champion earlier... But I just don't see how it can happen with the house rule of no more than 2 "open" Prestige classes.

So, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Barbarian 1 vs Duskblade 2, on how to fill out the last 5 levels and of course (Sacred Exorcist vs Unseen Seer), if there is a way to get into Abjurant Champion sooner with the house rule constraints. Any brilliant tricks? I don't need Ruathar, it just seemed to slot in nicely...

Thanks for your help, playground!