Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe

[Sean Mirrsen]

@Sean Mirrsen: Events being simultaneous in all reference frames isn't really a thing in general relativity so making an argument based on it doesn't work.

It's not about being simultaneous in all reference frames. It's about two events being simultaneous in one reference frame, and inflicting an instantaneous event on another reference frame. One event, at one point in time, two sources separated by distance, at different distances from the target in another reference frame. Obviously the passage of time in two different reference frames is different, per relativity, but the difference in time is just that. If propagation is instant, difference in space is irrelevant and the target reference frame must experience the two simultaneous events simultaneously, even if not "at the same time" as the other reference frame, however you determine that without a third reference frame to be relative to.

[Ibrinar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relati...f_simultaneity

In physics, the relativity of simultaneity is the concept that distant simultaneity – whether two spatially separated events occur at the same time – is not absolute, but depends on the observer's reference frame.

From the point of view of the ship they simply do not happen at the same time. So both arriving at the same time either doesn't happen or is already breaking causality. Instant signals are not clearly defined when talking about different reference frames I think.

Anyway I am satisfied that you have no source and it is your own theory so my curiosity is satisfied and I will withdraw.

[Sean Mirrsen]

It's not a theory so much as a curious observation.

What would you say to the last point I listed in the prior post? About reversibility?

Would it not follow that, should the ship not experience the two events that are simultaneous to another frame of reference, as simultaneous, then its own events would also not follow similarly for the other frame of reference, appearing as simultaneous even though they are not?

In the example, allowing for the dissimultaneity of relative time and space, would not the ship calling Earth the moment they see the call received at the other end, and calling the other end when they see the call placed at Earth, happen simultaneously for the respective points, just as the simultaneous call and reception were not simultaneous for the ship?

[Ibrinar]

To be honest I have slight trouble parsing your latest post. So I am going back to the first post: If from the ships point of view Earth message is sent at 13 arbitrary time units and the Recipients get it at 12 then if the confirmations sent to the ship are instant from the perspective of the ship they also arrive at those times. They don't arrive at the same time because from their point of view they aren't sent at the same time see "relativity of simultaneity". If they then send an immediate reaction with instant communication to earth which is instant from the ships perspective it would arrive at earth 1 time unit before earth sends the message from earth point of view. That earth considers their message simultaneous with the recipient getting it and thinks the ship got the confirmation at the same time so they shouldn't be getting the message before well that is either why instant communication doesn't make much sense in a world with relativity or why you get time travel when you introduce it.

If the instant comm arrived at the same time at the ship that would imply it isn't instant from the point of view of the ship since they got one of them one time unit after it was sent from their perspective. Edit: Also no instant comm does not mean that space differences don't matter since they are rather integral to the ships point of view.
Edit2: Though of course my understanding of GR is basic at best.

[Douglas]

It's not a theory so much as a curious observation.

What would you say to the last point I listed in the prior post? About reversibility?

Would it not follow that, should the ship not experience the two events that are simultaneous to another frame of reference, as simultaneous, then its own events would also not follow similarly for the other frame of reference, appearing as simultaneous even though they are not?

In the example, allowing for the dissimultaneity of relative time and space, would not the ship calling Earth the moment they see the call received at the other end, and calling the other end when they see the call placed at Earth, happen simultaneously for the respective points, just as the simultaneous call and reception were not simultaneous for the ship?

Yes, the reversibility does apply, but only with regard to space and time in combination, not separately. If Earth calls the ship and the ship immediately calls back, both ends see the call and response as being simultaneous. If Earth calls Planet Zargon (which is in the same reference frame), which calls the ship, which calls Earth, the transition from the ship's frame back to Earth's is not the same as from Earth's frame to the ship's, because one transition involves Earth's location and the ship while the other involves Zargon's location and the ship.

Suppose Earth and Zargon simultaneously (in their frame) send a message to the ship, and the ship responds to each message by immediately forwarding it to the other. In the ship's frame, one of those messages is going to arrive before the other. Its forwarding of that message will therefore happen before it receives the other message. The forwarded message and the second message travel between the same two points, and that means all frames will agree on their order. The ship's frame says the forwarded message happened first, so the recipient of the forwarded message will also see that happen first. They get the forwarded message before they send their own, which by the original setup of simultaneous messages means they get it before the original source of the message sent it.

[Traab]

"Hurry! My technobabble is starting to fluctuate the SoD buffers!" (suspension of disbelief) Heh, lets hope sydney doesnt manage to lash out and damage the rescue ship when they eventually catch up.

[Calemyr]

"Hurry! My technobabble is starting to fluctuate the SoD buffers!" (suspension of disbelief) Heh, lets hope sydney doesnt manage to lash out and damage the rescue ship when they eventually catch up.

Either that or she'll vanish and Cora will get back to Dabbler: "What the hell did you send us after? Not only did it leave the planet on its own via Aetherium Causeway, but the mess it left behind! C'thuloid giants, sliced up like so much sushi!"

[Traab]

Either that or she'll vanish and Cora will get back to Dabbler: "What the hell did you send us after? Not only did it leave the planet on its own via Aetherium Causeway, but the mess it left behind! C'thuloid giants, sliced up like so much sushi!"

"Dude, I TOLD you she was tough! As for the Causeway, she must have upgraded her skills after single handedly wiping out a planetary destruction force. Had I known that would work I wouldnt have bothered calling you!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

I have to admit, I've never given any thought to the most efficient way to set up a planetary scan network. Kudos, Dave.

[HandofShadows]

What I find very interesting is that the wormhole is enough to make the captain of a powerful starship sit up and go oh )^*$$%(. What the heck are these spheres and what is their upper power limit?

[Traab]

What I find very interesting is that the wormhole is enough to make the captain of a powerful starship sit up and go oh )^*$$%(. What the heck are these spheres and what is their upper power limit?

It may not be the level of power involved so much as the power TYPE. Like this sort of wormhole travel is rarely seen for whatever reason while wormhole travel itself is not that unique. Like if you had three cars, one is gas powered, the other electric, the third somehow runs on nuclear energy scaled down to auto size amounts. They all get you where you are going, but seeing one done in a nuclear way is highly unusual. Also, http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1533 A similar term used there for the aetheon throne. So is it a supernatural energy of some kind? Or scientific?

[Calemyr]

It may not be the level of power involved so much as the power TYPE. Like this sort of wormhole travel is rarely seen for whatever reason while wormhole travel itself is not that unique. Like if you had three cars, one is gas powered, the other electric, the third somehow runs on nuclear energy scaled down to auto size amounts. They all get you where you are going, but seeing one done in a nuclear way is highly unusual. Also, http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1533 A similar term used there for the aetheon throne. So is it a supernatural energy of some kind? Or scientific?

Heck, it might even just be the circumstances. A man-portable means of ripping a hole in space-time to just walk wherever you want in the universe? Sure, you can do that with a ship, but it'd be an expensive one and it'd have to be big. I mean, it's kinda the difference of being able to launch ICBMs armed with nuclear warheads and being able to shoot explosive fireballs from your finger that have equivalent destructive capacity. One is scary, the other is terrifying.

[tyckspoon]

A similar term used there for the aetheon throne. So is it a supernatural energy of some kind? Or scientific?

You assume there's a difference in this setting Dabbler's approach to magic, at least, seems to be scientific or amenable to scientific methods of examination; I suspect if she were told that what she does is 'supernatural' she'd explain (possibly condescendingly or with some degree of pity) that it's just another form of energy that humans sadly don't have the natural ability to sense or manipulate.

Although if 'aetherium causeways' are notably rare or otherwise distinctive that may serve as a major clue to the Orbs' origin; reference societies that can access that kind of energy/use that mode of FTL travel with those that have the advancement levels presumably necessary to create the Orbs and you have a shortlist of places they may have come from.

[Traab]

Heck, it might even just be the circumstances. A man-portable means of ripping a hole in space-time to just walk wherever you want in the universe? Sure, you can do that with a ship, but it'd be an expensive one and it'd have to be big. I mean, it's kinda the difference of being able to launch ICBMs armed with nuclear warheads and being able to shoot explosive fireballs from your finger that have equivalent destructive capacity. One is scary, the other is terrifying.

Now thats also a good point. I mean, we have joked around and its even been strongly considered in comic that her orbs make her a space ship, but the idea of a single person having the power of say, the U.S.S Zumwalt would certainly throw you, even if you yourself control an actual ship capable of that.

[Dragonus45]

You assume there's a difference in this setting Dabbler's approach to magic, at least, seems to be scientific or amenable to scientific methods of examination; I suspect if she were told that what she does is 'supernatural' she'd explain (possibly condescendingly or with some degree of pity) that it's just another form of energy that humans sadly don't have the natural ability to sense or manipulate.

I hope not, treating magic that way is one of my biggest pet peeves and it would likely be the moment I dropped the comic for good.

[Keltest]

I hope not, treating magic that way is one of my biggest pet peeves and it would likely be the moment I dropped the comic for good.

Dabbler at least seems to draw a distinction between her tech and her magic. Certainly the difference between sufficiently consistent magic and science is negligible, but at the very least it is implied that the magic operates according to a different set of rules than the science.

[tomandtish]

Heck, it might even just be the circumstances. A man-portable means of ripping a hole in space-time to just walk wherever you want in the universe? Sure, you can do that with a ship, but it'd be an expensive one and it'd have to be big. I mean, it's kinda the difference of being able to launch ICBMs armed with nuclear warheads and being able to shoot explosive fireballs from your finger that have equivalent destructive capacity. One is scary, the other is terrifying.

Now thats also a good point. I mean, we have joked around and its even been strongly considered in comic that her orbs make her a space ship, but the idea of a single person having the power of say, the U.S.S Zumwalt would certainly throw you, even if you yourself control an actual ship capable of that.

Exactly. For an example from another media, remember the White Stars in Babylon 5. One of their big edges was that no one thought a ship that small would be able to open it's own jump point (instead of using the gates).

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think you're all overthinking it.

The Captain's alarmed because the causeway is closing, and if it's not scanned before it does it will cause mission failure, since it's impossible to follow.

Not because it's inconceivable that a single person could open and use one.

[Douglas]

I think you're all overthinking it.

The Captain's alarmed because the causeway is closing, and if it's not scanned before it does it will cause mission failure, since it's impossible to follow.

Not because it's inconceivable that a single person could open and use one.

That's a reason for being alarmed. It is not a reason for exclaiming "What the hell?"

[Traab]

That's a reason for being alarmed. It is not a reason for exclaiming "What the hell?"

"What the hell" is a standard exclamation for something unexpected. Like, for example, finding out the human girl you were sent to pickup can transport through gobbledegook wormholes. Also, todays comic im hoping means the last orb is the REAL "com orb" universal translator. Either that or they shove a trout in her ear.

[Vogie]

"What the hell" is a standard exclamation for something unexpected. Like, for example, finding out the human girl you were sent to pickup can transport through gobbledegook wormholes. Also, todays comic im hoping means the last orb is the REAL "com orb" universal translator. Either that or they shove a trout in her ear.

I'm thinking Dave's trying to indicate that the last orb is a sort of Computer. Her last upgrade was in the center, where Shield/Flight was already connected together, adding the unknown orb to the mix. It may currently be a space-only computer, that she didn't touch the last time she was in Low Earth Orbit with Max.

My idea is because that it didn't pop up while she was flying while on the planet, or even into orbit.

Alternatively, it may be only displaying locale information it actually knows. If the squiggle is Earth's System (Squiggled due to either the Veil, the Crash, or both), it may not have any information about earth's system, so when she touched it in our solar system there was nothing to display... but now that she's on a 'known' planet, it's showing Syd the information that the computOrb knows.

[Traab]

I'm thinking Dave's trying to indicate that the last orb is a sort of Computer. Her last upgrade was in the center, where Shield/Flight was already connected together, adding the unknown orb to the mix. It may currently be a space-only computer, that she didn't touch the last time she was in Low Earth Orbit with Max.

My idea is because that it didn't pop up while she was flying while on the planet, or even into orbit.

Alternatively, it may be only displaying locale information it actually knows. If the squiggle is Earth's System (Squiggled due to either the Veil, the Crash, or both), it may not have any information about earth's system, so when she touched it in our solar system there was nothing to display... but now that she's on a 'known' planet, it's showing Syd the information that the computOrb knows.

I think she got the popup info because it was under the right circumstances, ie in orbit and free to travel interstellar wormholes. Kind of like how her teleport function is greyed out till she has her light bee out and about, or how she cant activate her shield embiggener until she actually creates a shield. Now that she has unlocked her warp travel ability, she gets the display showing her options. But only when she can actually use it.

[Traab]

Not much new in this update, just sydney processing everything. If she takes long enough dabblers buddy might start to catch up but I doubt it. I figure there are going to be at least a couple near misses before they finally manage to connect.

[Keltest]

Are those... Kerbals? And a Vorlon?

[HandofShadows]

Now Sydney can find out is Visa really IS taken everywhere.

[Braininthejar2]

That makes me think... apparently in this world, the SF movie production is heavily influenced by aliens, who used actual existing cultures for their character designs, probably takeing them entirely out of context.

Imagine going to a different world, and discovering your face has been used in a monster flick without asking your permission.

[georgie_leech]

Well, I'm out. Dabbler being able to access civilizations able to construct Dyson Spheres with apparently livable habitation around high energy astronomical objects officially broke the power curve for me; it's like if Freiza showed up during the Red Ribbon Army arc of Dragon Ball.

[Braininthejar2]

Well, I'm out. Dabbler being able to access civilizations able to construct Dyson Spheres with apparently livable habitation around high energy astronomical objects officially broke the power curve for me; it's like if Freiza showed up during the Red Ribbon Army arc of Dragon Ball.

Perhaps it's like the Mass Relays - it was built by some lost, ancient civilisation, and they're just using it?

[halfeye]

Well, I'm out.

:(

Yeah, it's ridiculous, but supers always were.

[Vogie]

That makes me think... apparently in this world, the SF movie production is heavily influenced by aliens, who used actual existing cultures for their character designs, probably takeing them entirely out of context.

Imagine going to a different world, and discovering your face has been used in a monster flick without asking your permission.

I've played with this sort of headcannon/conspiracy idea, since I had heard of the War of the Worlds radio broadcast, that a great way to enforce the masquerade on our planet, whenever an alien or supernatural event happens in an area, would be this: a superpowered illuminati could go back in time and create some sort of media (Movie, video game, book, et cetera) that perfectly describes the event. That way, in addition to the normal denial, "the man" could also note that the so-called witnesses could have also been confused by said media - for example, covering up a hate plague by releasing something like 28 days later, Train to Busan, Kingsman, or that Deus Ex game, a bit beforehand