Making an Arcane Trickster/Warlock/Sorceror not suck

[Wasp]

Hi everyone

A wishlist character I have is a spy character that has

- Mage Hand Legerdemain (Arcane Trickster 3)
- Mask of the Many Faces (Warlock 2), and
- Subtle Spell (Sorcerer 3) to be able to cast those spells without others noticing when necessary

How would you build such a character?

[MrStabby]

Ok... my thoughts would be to go hexblade 2 first. You will be getting late ASIs so making you SAD is a great first step. GOO warlock is good for spying but i think you could use some more all round abilities. This gets you your invocations first but also ensures you won't fall behind in combat. Gives you tools like friends as well. If you do want more combat capability the wrathful smite and shield spells are superb.

Rogue would be my next choice. By level 3 you can have expertise in 2 skills as well as invocations - investigation, insight, stealth, deception are all good fits for a spy. By this point you should have established your role in the party.

After level 3 I would suggest you level up according to what you feel you need for the campaign or the party. If you need mobility then prioritise arcane trickster, picking up cunning action on the way. If you need spell versatility then sorcerer is preferred. Divine soul sorcerer will be giving you access to the spells of three different classes, although none of the cleric spells spring to mind.

After the minimum number of levels to pick up what you want (8), then you have options. I would suggest sorc to 4 then rogue to 5 - uncanny dodge is a decent reaction and you want to be topping up those ASIs or feats. Actor feat is good if you have an odd cha, if you want more combat focus then lavish accuracy might float your boat. For narrative power keen mind could be good. Probably you just want the stat boost.

[Rolero]

It's a very good build for a spy/trickster focused character.

To expand on this, I would definetly go Old One Chain Warlock and pick up Voice of the Chain Master as one of his invocations. Imp or Sprite familiars with unlimited range to see through them is tremendously powerful for a Spy and you also get at will telepathy, an excellent way to exchange information or coordinate with your team. For your other invocation, Mask of many faces is thematic and very useful to infiltrate any place.

After that level, the route to take would depend on either more mundane or magical methods. I think, overall, the sorcerer will get the most on the long run, specially when you hit 4th level spells (Greater Invisibility, Polimorph, Dimension Door...)

[Spiritchaser]

I’d definitely look into Sorcerer for subtle spell (one of my two favourites in any case and especially good here)

Depending on how your DM interprets things, the combination of magical ambush and subtle spell on its own should be enough to not suck...

That having been said, in the early levels I personally like swashbuckler sorcerer better than trickster/sorcerer. Getting sneak attack on both a redied action and a Hasten attack is easier before AT 13, plus you can quicken GFB, ready action “Cast GFB on this guy if any of these things so much as twitches” with sneak attack and hasten attack with sneak attack, since you won’t need your bonus action for advantage. That’s some pretty crazy damage.

[ciarannihill]

Ok... my thoughts would be to go hexblade 2 first. You will be getting late ASIs so making you SAD is a great first step. GOO warlock is good for spying but i think you could use some more all round abilities. This gets you your invocations first but also ensures you won't fall behind in combat. Gives you tools like friends as well. If you do want more combat capability the wrathful smite and shield spells are superb.

Rogue would be my next choice. By level 3 you can have expertise in 2 skills as well as invocations - investigation, insight, stealth, deception are all good fits for a spy. By this point you should have established your role in the party.

After level 3 I would suggest you level up according to what you feel you need for the campaign or the party. If you need mobility then prioritise arcane trickster, picking up cunning action on the way. If you need spell versatility then sorcerer is preferred. Divine soul sorcerer will be giving you access to the spells of three different classes, although none of the cleric spells spring to mind.

After the minimum number of levels to pick up what you want (8), then you have options. I would suggest sorc to 4 then rogue to 5 - uncanny dodge is a decent reaction and you want to be topping up those ASIs or feats. Actor feat is good if you have an odd cha, if you want more combat focus then lavish accuracy might float your boat. For narrative power keen mind could be good. Probably you just want the stat boost.

I think this is 100% the correct way to handle this play-style.

It also allows for later level investment into Fighter if you want for Action Surge + Fighting Style.

[Wasp]

Thank you very much for the feedback! Seems for a support character this could actually work!

Oh, and I forgot about Mordenkainen: Would it be better to use a Gith as race instead for invisible mage hand? Stat bonuses would of course be way off but one wouldn't need rogue...

[Ganymede]

One of the most difficult things when it comes to designing a character is realizing that you can't always have everything you want.

For me, your warlock levels are redundant. If all you really want is the ability to change your appearance, you should be able to make do by casting Disguise Self using your Arcane Trickster spell slots. Your sorcerer levels also seem superfluous. Is undetectable casting utterly vital to your ability to be a spy? You might be able to use your stealth to cast spells out of earshot/eyesight.

I'd strongly suggest you build your class as just an Arcane Trickster. It gets you most of what you want and avoids the narrative twisting required from learning the basics of wizardry AND making a deal with a powerful entity AND discovering your own innate magic all to make your concept work.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Arcane trickster 3/ Hexblade Chainlock 5: DivineSoul Sorcerer X

Pick up Mask of Many faces, Voice of the Chain Master, and whatever else you want (Misty Visions is good).

Enjoy life. You’re basically just a rogue with invisible-magic

[Segev]

Hi everyone

A wishlist character I have is a spy character that has

- Mage Hand Legerdemain (Arcane Trickster 3)
- Mask of the Many Faces (Warlock 2), and
- Subtle Spell (Sorcerer 3) to be able to cast those spells without others noticing when necessary

How would you build such a character?

You could manage all but the subtlety of mage hand casting without multiclassing at all. Arcane Trickster with a Hat of Disguise. Either go out of your way to quest for or buy one, or at third level, get disguise self as a known AT spell and make a Hat for yourself. you can even trade out disguise spell for some other known spell at a later level, then.

Hat of Disguise will let you cast disguise self at will, which should keep you covered. Pun unintended, but gleefully used.

If you want to add Subtle Spell back in, that still is a 3 level Sorc dip. Or you could run Sorc and make it a 3 level Rogue dip.

While Warlock can do fun things, it is definitely not essential to achieving the goals outlined in the original post. Sorcerer is disposable, too, if you want.

[Wasp]

Interesting point. I guess that is true, and theoreically I could use a Gith to get the Invisible Mage Hand

[Segev]

Interesting point. I guess that is true, and theoreically I could use a Gith to get the Invisible Mage Hand

You can? o_O Neat. I didn't know any races got that ability. That would let you play Sorc or Warlock (or Sorlock) without the Arcane Trickster, if all you wanted from AT was the Mage Hand Legerdemain's invisibility for the mage hand.

How's the Gith racial ability actually worded? I'm curious if it has other applications.

[Citan]

Hi everyone

A wishlist character I have is a spy character that has

- Mage Hand Legerdemain (Arcane Trickster 3)
- Mask of the Many Faces (Warlock 2), and
- Subtle Spell (Sorcerer 3) to be able to cast those spells without others noticing when necessary

How would you build such a character?

Hi!
Well, seems easy enough to me. :=)

Sorcerer 1 > Hexblade Warlock 1 > Rogue 1.
At that point you start with proficiency in Constitution, have a nice bunch of cantrips and Expertise. If you DM allows you to grab Mage Hand as a Sorcerer/Warlock cantrip and swap later once you got Invisible Mage Hand even better.

From there, I'd personally go Sorcerer 3 first because Subtle is immediately useful with Comprehend Languages, Prestidigitation, Message, Detect Magic, Fog Cloud, Sleep, Enhance Ability, Invisibility, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion... And you could also pick Shadow Blade to help you deal decent damage by stacking it onto your Booming Blade Sneak Attack.

Then Warlock 2 so you can combine Subtle Suggestion (provided you picked it as Sorcerer) with Disguise Self.

Finally Rogue 3 for Mage Hand.

At that time, you're a level 8 character that is kinda lacking in combat but a total beast in any kind of social encounter.
To come back on track combat-wise, you have several options.
- Sneak Attack way: be content with current spellcasting and go up to Reliable Talent.
- Booming Blade way: go high Sorcerer to get better spells and more metamagics, rely on autoscale cantrip for mundane turns, possibly getting Quicken to deal good damage when needed.
- Shadow Blade way: go high Warlock, picking the Blade pact with Extra Attack Invocation, upcasting Shadow Blade as your slots get better.
- Or mix and match any of above as you seem fit.

For example, an end goal of Rogue 9 / Sorcerer 7 / Tome Warlock 4 could end as very powerful, with Subtle Magical Ambush Slow/Hypnotic Pattern/Banishment/Fireball.

As for which Sorcerer Origin...
- Divine Soul if you want Healing Words / Raise Dead to round up your abilities or want to be an upfront tank with Spirit Guardians
- Draconic if you want a boost in AC/HP and a boost for one AOE spell (since your character otherwise specializes in subtlety, it actually frees your mind to get only one AOE spell once and for all).
- Shadow mainly if you elect Darkness as your go-to concentation spell, otherwise no (you already get Magical Ambush with that split, so the Hound is kinda redundant *unless* you plan on using each-round-save spells while not Hiding as a bonus action every turn).

[Wasp]

How's the Gith racial ability actually worded? I'm curious if it has other applications.

I don't have the exact wording. Online it says:

Githyanki Psionics: You know the mage hand cantrip, and the hand is invisible when you cast the cantrip with this trait. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the jump spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the misty step spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. None of these spells require components.

Githzerai Psionics: You know the mage hand cantrip, and the hand is invisible when you cast the cantrip with this trait.When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the shield spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.When you reach 5th level, you can cast the detect thoughts spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. None of these spells require components.

So a Gith with a hat of disguise would not need Sorcerer at all because they could cast both invisible mage hand and disguise self without components, right?

Hi!
Well, seems easy enough to me. :=)

[snip]

At that time, you're a level 8 character that is kinda lacking in combat but a total beast in any kind of social encounter.
To come back on track combat-wise, you have several options.
- Sneak Attack way: be content with current spellcasting and go up to Reliable Talent.
- Booming Blade way: go high Sorcerer to get better spells and more metamagics, rely on autoscale cantrip for mundane turns, possibly getting Quicken to deal good damage when needed.
- Shadow Blade way: go high Warlock, picking the Blade pact with Extra Attack Invocation, upcasting Shadow Blade as your slots get better.
- Or mix and match any of above as you seem fit.

For example, an end goal of Rogue 9 / Sorcerer 7 / Tome Warlock 4 could end as very powerful, with Subtle Magical Ambush Slow/Hypnotic Pattern/Banishment/Fireball.

As for which Sorcerer Origin...
- Divine Soul if you want Healing Words / Raise Dead to round up your abilities or want to be an upfront tank with Spirit Guardians
- Draconic if you want a boost in AC/HP and a boost for one AOE spell (since your character otherwise specializes in subtlety, it actually frees your mind to get only one AOE spell once and for all).
- Shadow mainly if you elect Darkness as your go-to concentation spell, otherwise no (you already get Magical Ambush with that split, so the Hound is kinda redundant *unless* you plan on using each-round-save spells while not Hiding as a bonus action every turn).

Oh, those sound all very fun! Thanks a lot!

[Cerefel]

You could also just go chain pact and use your invisible flying familiar as a mage hand instead of going arcane trickster or gith for the real deal

[Segev]

I don't have the exact wording. Online it says:

Githyanki Psionics: You know the mage hand cantrip, and the hand is invisible when you cast the cantrip with this trait. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the jump spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the misty step spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. None of these spells require components.

Githzerai Psionics: You know the mage hand cantrip, and the hand is invisible when you cast the cantrip with this trait.When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the shield spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.When you reach 5th level, you can cast the detect thoughts spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. None of these spells require components.

So a Gith with a hat of disguise would not need Sorcerer at all because they could cast both invisible mage hand and disguise self without components.

Seems like it. Could go straight rogue.

[Citan]

You could also just go chain pact and use your invisible flying familiar as a mage hand instead of going arcane trickster or gith for the real deal

Wow. You're winning the "great idea of the week" award you good lad(die)!
Of course, having both Invisible Mage Hand AND invisible familiar could be even more fun...

But a dual-class is much easier to build up than a tri-class, that's for sure. ;)

Also, guys, what's the Gith you have been talking about? Where does it come from?

Seems like it. Could go straight rogue.

Missing out on Subtle for someone who wants to weave magic as a spy seems too expensive a price imo.

Of course, if a DM agrees (not that big of a stretch) that you can whisper verbal components instead of speaking out loud, and you have otherwise a focus or Warcaster to take care of somatics/material, a pure Arcane Trickster is certainly a viable option for that concept...
But considering how faster you get great spells as a Sorcerer, and the great versatility that can bring at-will Disguise Self, I'd still recommend instead the Warlock/Sorcerer dual class: if you want a gish feeling, I'd say Hexblade Pact will fit nicely. Or you could instead go Whisper Bards: possibly even more thematic than Warlock. :)

[Segev]

Sorry. Should've said, "Can go straight Sorcerer," since its the at-will disguise self from Warlock that's covered by the Hat of Disguise, and the invisible mage hand from Arcane Trickster that's covered by Gith.

[JeffreyGator]

Gith is from mordekainens tome of foes or the UA article.

[Wasp]

Too bad the stat increases for neither Githyanki nor Githzerai really support a Sorcerer or Sorlock