Would You Be My New Best Friends? (Doctor Who redux)

[factotum]

Let's be honest here, the Valeyard was a character who appeared in *one* original Dr Who series, and I doubt anyone would remember him at all if he hadn't been played in particularly scene-chewing form by Michael Jayston. I seriously doubt he's going to make an appearance now.

[Douglas]

The Mod Radiant: Please remember that the real world history of Rosa Parks is strongly tied to a political issue, and real world politics is a prohibited topic on these forums. I realize this unfortunately blocks discussion of some major aspects of this episode, but a fictional work referencing the real world does not get an exception to the forum rules.

Please try to keep your discussion restricted to the fictional depiction in the show.

[Devonix]

The common misconception about the Valeyard is the thought that it's a specific regeneration. It isn't. The exact quote is that the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature. Somewhere between the 12th and final regeneration. I always saw that to mean it wasn't a regeneration, but a conglomeration of the evil in him.

[Hopeless]

I guess that doesn't include the Peter Capaldi version given he's the first of a new set of regenerations!😉

[Anymage]

Spoiler: Episode Things

Show

It does seem like Ryan did murder the bad guy. Guess it was all ok as he was a ''really'' bad guy right? So the Doctor says don't use guns and don't kill....well, except when she says it's ok? But it might be fun twist for him to do something more back in time.

Spoiler

Show

My headcanon is that time racist was sent back to when native tribes were the only humans on the continent. There's something karmically fitting about him having to get along when the only people around are not white.

As far as any disturbances that may happen, remember that both of Twelve's companions found companions of their own to go on spacetime adventures with, and I could write an excessively long post about how time agents may play into things. The point being that there are other forces in the universe that can handle troublemakers, even if they never show up on screen to annoy the Doctor.

Ultimately though I feel like the 3 episodes so far have treated the doctor more as an incidental part of the events everyone is caught up in - and that sort of works for me after all of the episodes we've had with the Doctor being the center of the universe. I'd like to see a solid antaognist akin to the first nuWho appearance of the Daleks or weeping Angels, or the creature from Midnight. If they keep going for more atmospheric episodes though I think I'd be happy with a season of that.

I wouldn't mind a little more bombast to help introduce the new Doctor, but Moffat kind of overdid bombast and making every individual moment as cool as is humanly possible. Often at the expense of things like consistency or pacing. (I wouldn't horribly mind if Moffat came back to do the occasional episode, but he would need to be kept on a short leash.) I could see Chibnall keeping things muted as a reflexive overreaction.

Which will leave Thirteen and companions without strongly defining moments for longer than their predecessors, but there are worse things than being a bit overly cautious.

[Calemyr]

In fairness, Greaser could have easily been the Meddling Monk - the Time Lord that abused time for his own profit and amusement. Portray him as a scarred survivor of the Time War whose old quirk has been warped into an obsession with cause and effect. Keep old Parks off the bus that day just to watch how the the marbles fall. Maybe treat him like the anti-Master - unrepentantly destructive yet pacifistic. "Can't believe I'm askin' this, but... why wouldn't you just kill Rosa Parks?" "Don't be vulgar. A crass act like that would disrupt the equilibrium. 'Sides, I don't hold with killing." Possibly the old monk is now trying to master cause and effect because he blames himself for the Time War? I can't help but think you could do a lot with that.

Tennant as the Valyard would be interesting. If something were to happen to Rose, if he were left with nothing but an impending sense of mortality, he might not go quietly into that good night. His stint on Jessica Jones did an impressive job of portraying a man who was warped by circumstances - in that case being given the innate ability to convince anyone into doing what he wanted. Tennant as a man with the Doctor's genius, warped by still more senseless loss and moral outrage, then faced with a Doctor who had broke the 13 incarnation limit... If they'll break the rule for one, maybe they'll break it for another? That could be good, too.

[Aotrs Commander]

Eeeeeh.

Spoiler

Show

That was... Less than I even expected really, and my expectations were pretty low. I found it... Excruiatingly heavy-handed, myself. I found the villain being a time-racist was the final straw, as we didn't even get any interesting aliens or anything. That was just... The bridge too far. I mean, aliens trying to do an alien thing was the only thig that even distantly got my interest from last time's teaser.

I very nearly did not watch it at all (the premise utterly failed to grab me) and read some more of A Practical Guide to Evil, and I don't think I would have missed anything if I had, since this series seems devoid of a main story arc. (Which, I suppose is good, since that means I can, maybe go back to picking and choosing to watch only the highlights instead of every episode (that I did before Moffat's run). Apparently, I have had my best fun out of it, so it's time for everyone else to have theirs again or something.

It's not the Doctor, or even the companions, but I'm finding the stories they're telling with them just aren't interesting (but are not, at least, so crushingly terrible as Kill the Moon).

(For the record, bigotry annoys me to the point my optimal solution would be to simply create a permenant sell that simply sets people's souls on that that burns, life or death, so long as their bigotry exists, so it's not like I am against the sentiment or anything.)

But I have never been especially fond of the more-historical episodes of Doctor Who from the get-go, in the old or new era - if I want history, I'll read nonfiction or go to a museum (even better) - so, it was on a hiding to nothing from that as a starting point. (Yes, I know that a story that is literally about time travel is going to have large amounts of human history in it; but it also has Daleks and that, for me, is the most important part.

...

Yes, if this episode was a Dalek plot to assassinate Rosa Parks, I would have had more time for it. At least it isn't human stupidity - I get enough of that... EVERYWHERE these days, I don't want to dwell on it even more; I would, occasionally, like to spend at least, I dunno, maybe an hour or two a day not seething with fury and trying to work out the most absolute-beyond-death retribution I can inflict on the everything.

So, as I said, it just didn't work for me, this one.

The highlight, such as it was, was a bit of a smirk at Ryan fanboying, but that about it.

[random11]

<Batman voice>
It might not be the episode we want, but it's the episode we need right now.
</Batman voice>

Seriously though, I do think the subject is important.
And considering what it tried to do, it was relatively subtle. (Compare it to Super girl, where we're supposed to expect a full season of 10 pound hammer messages to our heads)
The future racist was a bit of a stretch for a villain, but we all understand what they were trying to say with this part of the story, so I can forgive a bit of damage to the story.



Message aside, they did figure out something that I think is crucial to building tension in DW episodes: The less deadly the enemy's weapon is, the more threat it poses in the story.
If the enemy has a planet destroying bomb, we all know he will never get a chance to use it.
But with a gun that just sends someone in time? To the heroes it's a minor inconvenience in the long run, but can still pose a real threat to the plan of stopping the bad guy.

That being said, I suspect it wasn't really intentional for tension, more likely it was the only option someone could shoot the bad guy without actually being a killer.

[Darth Ultron]

<Batman voice>
It might not be the episode we want, but it's the episode we need right now.
</Batman voice>

Seriously though, I do think the subject is important.

Except Doctor Who is not the place to do it for a real history event. A more just 'set in the American South in the '50's' with fictional characters would be a much better setting. And with a fictional setting and characters, you don't have the Doctor just being a guest star in the episode. And it gives much more freedom when you are not locked into a historical event.

And a good message is not effected by the setting. Even if it was set in the year 5000 with robots, the message will still have just as much impact and importance. It's kind of the whole point of fiction.

[Serenity]

A show conceived as edutainment featuring a diverse cast of characters time travelling, with a long history of using that time travel to build sci-fi plots around historical figures and events, is the 'wrong place' to address issues of racism, both as it existed in a historical context, and how those long-discredited beliefs nonetheless persist strongly into the modern day? What a fascinating 'rule'.

[Devonix]

A show conceived as edutainment featuring a diverse cast of characters time travelling, with a long history of using that time travel to build sci-fi plots around historical figures and events, is the 'wrong place' to address issues of racism, both as it existed in a historical context, and how those long-discredited beliefs nonetheless persist strongly into the modern day? What a fascinating 'rule'.

This is indeed what the show started off as, but especially in NuWho it branched so far away from this as to be unrecognizable. The show pretty much became about a time traveling superhero as opposed to any actual delving into history. So I can see there being a bit of surprise at this turn.

Now I actually like it, but it is a change. Someone earlier compared it to Quantum Leap and I think it's an apt comparison. The episode seemed like a big budget mix of Doctor Who and Quantum Leap, it's a mix I think I could enjoy a lot, but could also see not being for everyone. I absolutely loved the episode, but had to pause partway through because I was feeling things, the show doesn't normally make me feel. The show affected me, that's a mark of quality, but also something not every audience member will want to tune in for.

And once again I can't quite put my finger on why, but the extra budget is still distracting, Not bad, just... The show seems too high quality to be doctor who and it takes me a tiny bit out, like watching an old movie getting remastered into HD.

[dps]

Oof. I'm 1/3 through "Rosa", and I don't know if I'll finish. Not because it's bad, I just get so incensed. I'm autistic and my mind operates on logic, and so the utterly pointless, sneering cruelty of real-life racist hillbillies... ugh.

How did this EVER make sense to anyone??

I can't really address your question because of forum rules, so I'll just focus on the episode.

I respect the episode, I think it did what it set out to do quite well. I can't quite say I enjoyed the episode; some of my reaction to the racism it portrays is similar to yours (but I suppose less intense because I'm not autistic?). A lot of it made me uncomfortable. That's OK; sometimes TV and movies need to make us uncomfortable. I don't mind Doctor Who doing it. I hope that it's not something the show does regularly, but I'd like to see it do it more than it has done more than has been typical of NuWho, which, when it has made me uncomfortable, has usually been when it's been bad.

[The Troubadour]

The show might not be specifically geared toward edutainment anymore, but it's always had an interest in discussing (explicitly or implicitly) topics such as racism and homophobia. It wasn't coincidence, for instance, that we've had so many characters casually admitting to being in a same-sex relationship with everyone around them (or most everyone) treating it as if it were absolutely normal.

[oudeis]

Wasn't that mostly from the RTD era, though?

[The Troubadour]

Does that really make a difference?
At the very least, Moffat approached the same topics with Bill.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, Krasko did remind me of Sutcliffe.
Except that instead of being an aside, it was the core of the episode, this time around.

[Psyren]

The answer is: don't. Why anyone on this board responds to Darth Ultron is beyond me.

Indeed.

My only response.

I like you.

[Androgeus]

Except Doctor Who is not the place to do it for a real history event.

Yhea they should never have episodes set in history like at Pompeii or the frost fairs in London or the time Agatha Christie disappeared.

[Darth Ultron]

A show conceived as edutainment featuring a diverse cast of characters time travelling, with a long history of using that time travel to build sci-fi plots around historical figures and events, is the 'wrong place' to address issues of racism, both as it existed in a historical context, and how those long-discredited beliefs nonetheless persist strongly into the modern day? What a fascinating 'rule'.

Just scroll up and read the post in red text. You will see why it's not a good topic.

The show might not be specifically geared toward edutainment anymore, but it's always had an interest in discussing (explicitly or implicitly) topics such as racism and homophobia. It wasn't coincidence, for instance, that we've had so many characters casually admitting to being in a same-sex relationship with everyone around them (or most everyone) treating it as if it were absolutely normal.

Now this is something it would be nice to see more of.....but not just the 'human' stuff. Doctor Who touched on this a couple times with Captain Jack. Jack was from the far future when humans had been inter breeding with aliens for centuries. And some of the aliens were not ''just like humans' or even humanoid.

But, of course, many don't like that topic...so it quickly got dropped.

Yhea they should never have episodes set in history like at Pompeii or the frost fairs in London or the time Agatha Christie disappeared.

Yes, but those events did not have the Race red flag.

[Androgeus]

Yes, but those events did not have the Race red flag.

So Doctor Who shouldn't do racism?

[Devonix]

So Doctor Who shouldn't do racism?

I understand what he's saying here. I disagree that they shouldn't do that. But Doctor Who has always treated such things with Kid's gloves. Case in point the episode linked earlier where The Doctor just punches out the guy. This was a far more realistic depiction about how time travelers have to react. It's not something Doctor Who viewers will be used to and while I like it, it is a bit jarring.

[Rodin]

Just scroll up and read the post in red text. You will see why it's not a good topic.

I'll just call up Chibnall and tell him the Giant is very upset with him for breaking the forum rules by doing something political. I'll make sure to record the response. There may even be tears!

[Rynjin]

Put me in the camp of "didn't enjoy the episode". It's unfortunate, but it just wasn't very well done. The villain was flat and one dimensional, and the story being focused on this uninteresting "if this one tiny thing changes the universe is racist forever" plot was super weak.

I don't mind a hamfisted social commentary episode as long as it;s also entertaining, but this really wasn't entertaining or engaging in any real sense.

[Darth Ultron]

So Doctor Who shouldn't do racism?

They should do it through the lenses of fiction.

Like ''Let this be your last battle field" from Star Trek....where you had two racist aliens fighting to the bitter end. That was a good fictional show about racism, and it even showed how both the ''good" and "bad" racism was wrong. Both aliens were both equally wrong for both hating each other as they were different.

But with episodes like Rosa, you get this one side of everything:

Rosa and all her friends are right and good. And:

Every white person except the Doctor and Gram are wrong and evil.

And that is the problem with doing such ''historic" things...

[The Troubadour]

Ah, yes, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". To quote from memory a webcomics author I profoundly respect, "It's scary how quickly everyone assumes the oppressor and the oppressed are equally at fault".

ETA: Here's the comic strip in question, if anyone's interested: http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com/3faces/baqb.htm. It's part of a "series" called "The Hero of Three Faces", which is basically drawn fanfiction (often featuring the Doctor visiting other "fiction planes", that is, TV shows). It's fun, and I heartily recommend the "main" webcomic: http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com.

[Calemyr]

I respect the episode, I think it did what it set out to do quite well. I can't quite say I enjoyed the episode; some of my reaction to the racism it portrays is similar to yours (but I suppose less intense because I'm not autistic?). A lot of it made me uncomfortable. That's OK; sometimes TV and movies need to make us uncomfortable. I don't mind Doctor Who doing it. I hope that it's not something the show does regularly, but I'd like to see it do it more than it has done more than has been typical of NuWho, which, when it has made me uncomfortable, has usually been when it's been bad.

I gotta agree, here. Respect is exactly the correct word. But there's nothing enjoyable about institutionalized racism. It needs to be recognized and acknowledged, like many very bad things that make up the foundation of our world, but there's nothing fun about it.

And, while I don't mind Rosa has a historical, I don't like how close the Doctor and crew got. Rosa should have been the backdrop rather than a lead character. Running around trying to stop a meddling time traveler is fine, having the crew struggle with mores of the time was perfect (including having Ryan getting falsely accused of starting fights by a police officer), but having the Doctor and Yaz have casual conversations with Rosa Parks and having Ryan listen in on a civil rights meeting attended by Parks and MLK Jr was needlessly indulgent if they weren't going to be active participants in the adventure.

Charles Dickens, Winston Churchill, Agatha Christie, and Vincent van Gogh were all active parts of their respective adventures, so of course they were involved with the Doctor. But, then, none of them were diminished by the Doctor's influence. Dickens and van Gogh died before that influence could really be felt, Churchill was already a badass and a confidant of the Doctors before he's introduced, and Christie forgot the adventure but used those buried memories as inspiration for yet another book. Rosa Parks... if you mess with her at all, you destroy her impact. Be it a political self-sacrifice to make a statement or a moment of defiance against an unjust policy, it being her choice, free and clear of any alien influence, is critical to its meaning. And to the writer's credit, she knew that. But she (or Chibnall) insisted on having the Doctor and crew directly interacting with her, which still taints it in a fridge logic way, just not as much or as directly, by introducing Parks to modern sensibilities alien to her environment. So making the plot a game of manipulating cause and effect worked well, but the heart-to-heart chats did more damage than good.

[Devonix]

I gotta agree, here. Respect is exactly the correct word. But there's nothing enjoyable about institutionalized racism. It needs to be recognized and acknowledged, like many very bad things that make up the foundation of our world, but there's nothing fun about it.

And, while I don't mind Rosa has a historical, I don't like how close the Doctor and crew got. Rosa should have been the backdrop rather than a lead character. Running around trying to stop a meddling time traveler is fine, having the crew struggle with mores of the time was perfect (including having Ryan getting falsely accused of starting fights by a police officer), but having the Doctor and Yaz have casual conversations with Rosa Parks and having Ryan listen in on a civil rights meeting attended by Parks and MLK Jr was needlessly indulgent if they weren't going to be active participants in the adventure.

Charles Dickens, Winston Churchill, Agatha Christie, and Vincent van Gogh were all active parts of their respective adventures, so of course they were involved with the Doctor. But, then, none of them were diminished by the Doctor's influence. Dickens and van Gogh died before that influence could really be felt, Churchill was already a badass and a confidant of the Doctors before he's introduced, and Christie forgot the adventure but used those buried memories as inspiration for yet another book. Rosa Parks... if you mess with her at all, you destroy her impact. Be it a political self-sacrifice to make a statement or a moment of defiance against an unjust policy, it being her choice, free and clear of any alien influence, is critical to its meaning. And to the writer's credit, she knew that. But she (or Chibnall) insisted on having the Doctor and crew directly interacting with her, which still taints it in a fridge logic way, just not as much or as directly, by introducing Parks to modern sensibilities alien to her environment. So making the plot a game of manipulating cause and effect worked well, but the heart-to-heart chats did more damage than good.

The difference between this and those to me is that This was very much a " Time Travelers visit historical figure and stuff happens around them. They're not trying to alter history, they don't really influence the historical figure, the historical figure doesn't even know that there's anything strange or unusual about them.

But the other mentioned time travel episodes and people aren't those people, the show basically gives them completely different histories from the point the doctor Arrives. Churchill and The Doctor have had offscreen adventures, Churchill knows about aliens, knows about time travel, this is not Winston Churchill. Same for the other characters, they are made aware of the wider world, and have wacky space stuff happen to them. Rosa is completely separated from these things, living her own life and The Doctor and her crew just do stuff around her.

[Calemyr]

The difference between this and those to me is that This was very much a " Time Travelers visit historical figure and stuff happens around them. They're not trying to alter history, they don't really influence the historical figure, the historical figure doesn't even know that there's anything strange or unusual about them.

But the other mentioned time travel episodes and people aren't those people, the show basically gives them completely different histories from the point the doctor Arrives. Churchill and The Doctor have had offscreen adventures, Churchill knows about aliens, knows about time travel, this is not Winston Churchill. Same for the other characters, they are made aware of the wider world, and have wacky space stuff happen to them. Rosa is completely separated from these things, living her own life and The Doctor and her crew just do stuff around her.

That's kinda my point. That would have worked much better if the Doctor and crew didn't get themselves so intimately involved with the event they were trying to preserve. The tonal inconsistency there really irks me, at least. If you're going to pollute time, do it. If you're not going to, don't do it. Sure, they wanted a chance to show Parks's side of things, or at least what they thought her side of things would be, but it should have been incidental. Parks engaging them, for example, isn't an issue. Her stepping in and defusing the situation for Ryan when he committed the unpardonable sin of picking up a white lady's handkerchief and handing it to her, for example, was great. Showed she was savvy and knew how to play the game, was kind enough to stick her neck out for a stranger, and bitter at the injustices around her. That is good. Ryan getting invited to her committee meeting and meeting MLK was indulgent but worked - Ryan was excitable, particularly about MLK, but didn't overshare. So, okay. Yaz casually mentioning to Rosa Parks that she's a police officer, despite being non-white and female, and is, more to the point, honestly anticipating one day being in charge, however, is pollution. Rosa Parks's actions as a response to 1955 Georgia is an incredible moment. Rosa Parks's action as an evolution of hearing England is 60 years or so more culturally advanced kills the punch it otherwise had. (Which in itself is besides the influence of having a quartet of giddy Brits fangirling over her and unsubtly trying to force events in full view of a woman that is very clearly not an idiot.)

In short, they did understand they needed to treat this episode differently than their previous Historical Icon episodes, but they didn't divorce themselves from the formula enough. Rosa Parks is the one person in this episode that should have never met the Doctor.

[LeSwordfish]

The common misconception about the Valeyard is the thought that it's a specific regeneration. It isn't. The exact quote is that the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature. Somewhere between the 12th and final regeneration. I always saw that to mean it wasn't a regeneration, but a conglomeration of the evil in him.

Sounds like you could get a similar effect with the War Doctor.

[Calemyr]

The common misconception about the Valeyard is the thought that it's a specific regeneration. It isn't. The exact quote is that the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature. Somewhere between the 12th and final regeneration. I always saw that to mean it wasn't a regeneration, but a conglomeration of the evil in him.

This is true, and describes Tennant's Crisis Doctor perfectly. Born between the 12 Doctor (Tennant's second regeneration, during which he charged the hand that would become Crisis Doctor) and the 13th (Matt Smith), but not a regeneration himself. Born of war and death (by Tennant's own description to Rose), committing genocide within minutes of birth. And with Tennant's Doctor being extremely prone to going overboard when emotionally harmed, it's really not hard seeing him go really dark if he lost Rose again... And, face it, that's a heavy likelihood, given both of their attitudes towards adventure. So you've got a bitter, emotionally devastated clone of a Doctor given to disproportional response, with no regenerations to his name, in an alternate reality with nothing to do but brood... Oh, he could be an absolute terror indeed. Add 30-40 (visible) years and it would not be hard for such a creature to reason that he had been royally screwed over and half of the Doctor's regenerations are rightfully his regardless of how paradoxical the logic reads. Attacking the Sixth Doctor then follows, as a halfway point through the list, rounding in his favor.

The Trial of a Time Lord was a very major moment in the fanbase for Doctor Who. It was the first wobbles of the first cancellation of the show, which came back briefly for Sylvester MacCoy as Seven before getting cancelled again, getting a movie meant to motivate the fan base towards another revival, and then getting the proper shot in the arm that was RTD and Christopher Eccleston. The Valeyard was presented at a crossroads point of the franchise and wrote a check that would need to be cashed at some point in the future, during a meta-serial that would be iconic and stick in the minds of both Old Who fans and Nu Who fans that wanted a taste of what the old show was like before the fall, one that would later be regarded as a metaphor for the show's backstage troubles. And if that weren't bad enough, they then doubled down in the Nu Who special The Name of the Doctor, with the Great Intelligence outright claiming that the Valeyard was one of the Doctor's many names, dredging the name up from obscurity once again. So it's really no surprise that the one promise the old show made for the future is still be actively anticipated by modern fans. They've got an angle I think works, it's just a question of if they'll ever try to pull it off. (Jodie Whitaker vs David Tennant would be epic, especially now that the Master has been permanently killed. For, oh, the fifth time?)