Would You Be My New Best Friends? (Doctor Who redux)

[Calemyr]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Narnia is not actually inside the wardrobe, is it? The wardrobe acts as a portal, does it not?

No, you're right. I was talking about the effect of it, not the reality of it. I thought it was cool that it transitions from police box to extra-dimensional transport in a way previous incarnations never bothered to try.

Probably some alien trying to mess with history or something.

Eh, I wouldn't bet on it being an intentional thing, but rather circumstancially related. Using other historical NuWho episodes as a guide:

* Madame Du Pompadour was being targeted because the ship they were trying to fix was named after her and the clockwork mechanics were unsettlingly literal.
* Robin Hood became a legend because of alien intervention driving up gold demand and inciting authoritarian brutality.
* Vincent van Gogh's eccentricities allowed him to see a monster that could not otherwise be seen.
* Winston Churchill was "given" Daleks who played the happy servant/soldier just to get the Doctor to acknowledge them. (And thus create the Mighty Morphin Power Daleks.)
* Charles Dickens gets pulled into events by accident when a "ghost" goes ballistic in his audience and the Doctor tries to steal his carriage.
* Agatha Christie gets set up in a send up of her novels because a human-alien hybrid gets accidentally brainwashed by a psychic gem and a mystery-loving mother.

I'm sure there are other examples that aren't coming to mind, as well as other historicals like The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances that just use historical settings as a backdrop.

Using that as a basis, my first bet is that it's an unrelated threat. The presence of the Doctor riles something, and Parks (probably through Yaz's fascination with her) gets pulled into it.

Second bet is that Rosa Parks's defiance will be recast as a heroic effort to disrupt the monster of the week.

Actually he says "If she can live here all her life, couple of hours won't kill me."

Ah, my bad. I only overheard it once. Sorry.

Oh they want to do that? It should be fun.

That's something they said a while back, with Rosa Parks being the example they mentioned. I only heard that third (or so) hand, so take it with a grain of salt, but they did mention her and it does have similar team composition (two boys, two girls, ranging from teenager to old man). I would be interested in seeing the historical stories actually having legitimate educational value beyond trying to faithfully reproduce the related cultures, so I hope it's true.

[Darth Ultron]

Wait, wait, wait: Why is Doctor Who doing an episode about Rosa Parks?

Lady Doctor, and a Famous Woman from History....it was obvious.

And it could be a bad sign. After all, it's what I was talking about:

Normal Doctor Who: Ok, so who out of all of history will make for a good episode?

Lady Doctor Who: Ok, what woman from woman history only will make a good pro-woman agenda for our woman Doctor?

And worst of all...even if they do it ''good" it can come off ''very bad"......like if they have the Lady Doctor go back and give Rosa the idea where to sit on the bus (and say she could not do it without help from an alien).

[Androgeus]

Lady Doctor, and a Famous Woman from History....it was obvious.

And it could be a bad sign. After all, it's what I was talking about:

Normal Doctor Who: Ok, so who out of all of history will make for a good episode?

Lady Doctor Who: Ok, what woman from woman history only will make a good pro-woman agenda for our woman Doctor?

And worst of all...even if they do it ''good" it can come off ''very bad"......like if they have the Lady Doctor go back and give Rosa the idea where to sit on the bus (and say she could not do it without help from an alien).

This is like thinking the only reason Eccleston met Dickens is because they are both male.

I do agree that it would be pretty bad if they make The Doctor Rosa's inspiration though.

[Calemyr]

Yep. Rubber meet road. We'll know next week just what this season is going to be.

So far, I've been impressed by this season, all two episodes of it, and the discipline they've shown. I want to say that they know they need to show that discipline, because they put themselves on thin ice and have to prove this is a legitimate decision and not an agenda-driven gambit. Push just far enough to make progress, not far enough to completely destroy the show, if you will. And so far, so good.

Rosa Parks, however, is an intersection of a dozen ways they could push too far. They will have to really show discipline to do this right. What I've seen so far leads me to be charitable about their chances, but they set for themselves one hell of a challenge for a third episode. It looks like they did some good casting for Parks, though. She really fits the pictures you can google up for the woman. That's another point in favor of Who's chances with this stunt in my book. We'll have to wait a week to see.

[zimmerwald1915]

This is like thinking the only reason Eccleston met Dickens is because they are both male.

I do agree that it would be pretty bad if they make The Doctor Rosa's inspiration though.

What, just because her activism for the NAACP was founded on a principled basis and long predated her becoming the cause celebre of the Montgomery Bus Boycott? Which was not a spontaneous event that could conceivably have been catalyzed by an alien, but the product of years of concerted organizing?

Surely not.

[Thufir]

True, but the Brigadier was introduced during Two's run, was a major part of Third's, appeared at the beginning of Four's and twice during Five's.

And once during Seven's.

Wait, wait, wait: Why is Doctor Who doing an episode about Rosa Parks?

The same reason it did episodes about or featuring Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, Agatha Christie, Winston Churchill, Vincent Van Gogh, Marco Polo, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth I, King John, Maximilien Robespierre/Napoleon Bonaparte, Adolf Hitler, Nero, Saladin/Richard the Lionheart, Harold Godwinson/Harald Hardrada (indirectly, they didn't actually appear), George Stephenson, Richard Nixon, Nefertiti and we could debate whether Robin Hood counts for the list.
(It's still possible I missed some)

[Fyraltari]

And once during Seven's.

I'm only to Five right now, sorry.

The same reason it did episodes about or featuring Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, Agatha Christie, Winston Churchill, Vincent Van Gogh, Marco Polo, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth I, King John, Maximilien Robespierre/Napoleon Bonaparte, Adolf Hitler, Nero, Saladin/Richard the Lionheart, Harold Godwinson/Harald Hardrada (indirectly, they didn't actually appear), George Stephenson, Richard Nixon, Nefertiti and we could debate whether Robin Hood counts for the list.
(It's still possible I missed some)

Revenge! The Master sets up a fake John Lackland, at one point.

[zimmerwald1915]

And once during Seven's.



The same reason it did episodes about or featuring Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, Agatha Christie, Winston Churchill, Vincent Van Gogh, Marco Polo, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth I, King John, Maximilien Robespierre/Napoleon Bonaparte, Adolf Hitler, Nero, Saladin/Richard the Lionheart, Harold Godwinson/Harald Hardrada (indirectly, they didn't actually appear), George Stephenson, Richard Nixon, Nefertiti and we could debate whether Robin Hood counts for the list.
(It's still possible I missed some)

Legitimate question: is Parks a well-known figure in Britain? I can't imagine she's mythologized to the extent she is in the States.

[Thufir]

Revenge! The Master sets up a fake John Lackland, at one point.

That would be King John, who is on my list.

Legitimate question: is Parks a well-known figure in Britain? I can't imagine she's mythologized to the extent she is in the States.

I don't think she is, no. I'm pretty sure I know about her primarily from spending time on the internet with lots of Americans. I can't speak definitively for my entire country, but while I imagine a decent number of people know who she was it's not something I would automatically assume a British person would know.

[Fyraltari]

That would be King John, who is on my list.

Damn it!
However you fail to mention Catherine de Médicis and pretty much the whole supporting cast of the Massacre, so revenge still!

I don't think she is, no. I'm pretty sure I know about her primarily from spending time on the internet with lots of Americans. I can't speak definitively for my entire country, but while I imagine a decent number of people know who she was it's not something I would automatically assume a British person would know.

As a French, I know about Rosa Parks that:
She was a black woman in the U.S. in the fifies and, as such, was not allowed to sit in the front of buses. Which she did anyway. This angered a lot of folks, but it became a symbol of the Civil Rights movement so she had support from that. And thus racism was solved forever in the United States.

My apologies to all the americans who hurt their teeth by cringing too much from reading that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Damn it!
However you fail to mention Catherine de Médicis and pretty much the whole supporting cast of the Massacre, so revenge still!



As a French, I know about Rosa Parks that:
She was a black woman in the U.S. in the fifies and, as such, was not allowed to sit in the front of buses. Which she did anyway. This angered a lot of folks, but it became a symbol of the Civil Rights movement so she had support from that. And thus racism was solved forever in the United States.

My apologies to all the americans who hurt their teeth by cringing too much from reading that.

All. . . is. . . forgiven. . .

[Fyraltari]

All. . . is. . . forgiven. . .

Thank you, zimmerwald, I am touched.

[The Troubadour]

[...] Harold Godwinson/Harald Hardrada (indirectly, they didn't actually appear) [...]

Really?! Which episode was that?

[Fyraltari]

Really?! Which episode was that?

The time Meddler. First appearance of a Time Lord other than the Doctor and Susan.
Who wants the monk to show up in the revival? Only me? Okay, then...

[oudeis]

...Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, Agatha Christie, Winston Churchill, Vincent Van Gogh, Marco Polo, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth I, King John, Maximilien Robespierre/Napoleon Bonaparte, Adolf Hitler, Nero, Saladin/Richard the Lionheart, Harold Godwinson/Harald Hardrada (indirectly, they didn't actually appear), George Stephenson, Richard Nixon, Nefertiti and we could debate whether Robin Hood counts for the list.
(It's still possible I missed some)

I actually watched many of these episodes and still managed to forget about them, largely because their presence was simply a plot hook for an inconsequential adventure. I strongly doubt that's what they have in mind for the next episode, especially given the present zeitgeist.

[LeSwordfish]

I looked up the writer of the next episode, and it's Malorie Blackman, a black female children's writer who has written eloquent and non-preachy books on racism and predjudice all her career, including the Noughts And Crosses series (some of the best YA fiction out there) and Pig-Heart Boy. There's still the potential for it to go massively wrong, of course (Chibnall is co-writer, and who knows what the suits will be demanding) but I literally cannot think of better hands for it to be in.

[jayem]

Legitimate question: is Parks a well-known figure in Britain? I can't imagine she's mythologized to the extent she is in the States.

We covered her in school and I think that the "sat on bus where not meant too" is semi-standard (I'd expect 80% plus of British adults to remember fairly sharpish). It's come up in the papers so a non-trivial percentage know there's more to it than that (but probably with very few details and some inaccuracies).

Hopefully they set most interactiony things a bit afterward. That I think gets the worst risks out the way [while still keeping much of the points].

[Rodin]

We covered her in school and I think that the "sat on bus where not meant too" is semi-standard (I'd expect 80% plus of British adults to remember fairly sharpish). It's come up in the papers so a non-trivial percentage know there's more to it than that (but probably with very few details and some inaccuracies).

To be fair, that is about all most Americans know about her. That she was an influential figure because she refused to move. Knowledge of her civil rights activities before that would be pretty thin on the ground.

From a point of no data, my initial inclination is to be worried. Doctor Who doesn't really do straight time travel episodes where the characters interact with people from history. I'm not sure how I would feel about Rosa Parks running from an energy vampire from Omicron Persei VIII.

[Calemyr]

By the way, one extra thought on Ghost Memorial:

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* Everybody Lives!

[ImperiousLeader]

I'm really liking the 13th Doctor, she's got elements of a lot of her predecessors, some explicit callbacks to some of them.

As for the Ghost Monument:

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I liked that Grace is still a factor, that she hasn't been forgotten. The show looks beautiful, the planet was beautiful. I liked the guest stars, and I'm still happy with the main cast. Also, the Call of Duty moment was pretty funny.

But I found the attack ribbons pretty silly, why do they talk? What stopped them from just killing everyone before the gas and cigar trick? And I want more from Yaz.

Overall, I'm still enjoying the new series, loving the new Doctor, but the episode did feel a little ho hum.

[Thufir]

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But I found the attack ribbons pretty silly, why do they talk? What stopped them from just killing everyone before the gas and cigar trick?

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The same thing that on numerous occasions has stopped the Daleks/Cybermen/Sontarans/Autons/Master/[Insert other villains here] from just killing the Doctor before [Insert Doctor's plan here].

That is, nothing other than their urge to do some villainous gloating.

[The Troubadour]

I liked this newest episode. I only wish that, if the Stenza (sp?) are really going to be the grand villains this season, Tim Shaw had felt like more of a threat in the previous episode.

The time Meddler. First appearance of a Time Lord other than the Doctor and Susan.
Who wants the monk to show up in the revival? Only me? Okay, then...

Thanks! I've recently marathoned the "main" Dalek serials of the classic series ("Remembrance" being my favourite), and now I'm going to do the same for the History-themed ones. Shame they seem to have stopped after Hartnell's time, though.

[Fyraltari]

Thanks! I've recently marathoned the "main" Dalek serials of the classic series ("Remembrance" being my favourite), and now I'm going to do the same for the History-themed ones. Shame they seem to have stopped after Hartnell's time, though.

The Time Meddler, is the first "historical with sci-fi".
Unless I am mistaken, there are only two post-Hartnell, purely historical episodes: a 2nd Doctor episode The Highlanders who is also the introduction of Jamie McCrimon and weirdly enough a 5th Doctor episode Black Orchid.

I don't particularly miss them since it is hard to write a captivating plot when your audience and characters already know most of what's going to hapen. And the historicity is not always really good.
Looking at you, The Gunfighters. Here's an idea: if you are going to write an episode centered around the most famous gunfight in history, get who was at that gunfight right. It's not that hard!

[Calemyr]

A question has been bothering me about this season so far: are the Stenza a single race or a coalition? Tim Shaw repeatedly refers to himself as a "member of the Stenza warrior race". Is he stressing that all Stenza are warriors, or are the tooth fairies just the race that serves as the Stenza's warrior branch?

The reason I ask is because, as others have pointed out, Illin has a very Darwinist approach to his little rally - where contenders pull themselves up from the boot straps and put themselves through hell because, according to Illin, that's when you see who someone truly is. The Stenza seem to have a similar "bootstraps and hardship" mentality when it comes to their ritual of leadership. And then there's the fact that the rally ends on a former Stenza stronghold. Illin's hologram, however, is not of a tooth fairy and is detailed enough that the Doctor points out his nose hairs. That suggests this is an accurate depiction of the rally's showrunner.

So, what do you think? Are the Stenza just a bunch of Darwinistic blue tooth fairies? Or does Tim Shaw only represent one arm of a larger faction?

[Fyraltari]

A question has been bothering me about this season so far: are the Stenza a single race or a coalition? Tim Shaw repeatedly refers to himself as a "member of the Stenza warrior race". Is he stressing that all Stenza are warriors, or are the tooth fairies just the race that serves as the Stenza's warrior branch?

The reason I ask is because, as others have pointed out, Illin has a very Darwinist approach to his little rally - where contenders pull themselves up from the boot straps and put themselves through hell because, according to Illin, that's when you see who someone truly is. The Stenza seem to have a similar "bootstraps and hardship" mentality when it comes to their ritual of leadership. And then there's the fact that the rally ends on a former Stenza stronghold. Illin's hologram, however, is not of a tooth fairy and is detailed enough that the Doctor points out his nose hairs. That suggests this is an accurate depiction of the rally's showrunner.

So, what do you think? Are the Stenza just a bunch of Darwinistic blue tooth fairies? Or does Tim Shaw only represent one arm of a larger faction?

Are the Romans all Italians?
I think the Stenza are a race with a warrior culture, like the sontarans, for example, which does not mean they are all warriors, and probably have enslaved a few worlds and species. If Ilin does have a connection to the Stenza he may be an ally with a similar outlook or maybe his homeworld was conquered and he works for them as a second-class citizen.

[Aotrs Commander]

Legitimate question: is Parks a well-known figure in Britain? I can't imagine she's mythologized to the extent she is in the States.

*raises hand as A British Person*

I have no idea who she is.

From context, I assume some sort political activist in America, but I'd actually have to google it. (Typed that before reading further down the thread.)



New episode... Eh, s'lright. Doctor is Doctor, companions (except Ryan, who is a bit meh) are okay.

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Not sold on the Stenza as potentially series bad guys though. I mean, wow. Alien hunter/noble (sic) warrior race (so tired a trope) except they stick teeth on there face. Yeah, no doing anything for me personally.

Do not like the new theme. Not hugely struck on the new TARDIS interior, either.

I am getting the impression that this series of Doctor Who is going to be aggressively "okay."

[factotum]

I am getting the impression that this series of Doctor Who is going to be aggressively "okay."

Some people (e.g. me!) would argue that still puts it head and shoulders above Capaldi's first series. (Oh, and I'm British and I've heard of Rosa Parks).

[jwhouk]

And those of us on this side of the Pond who know who Rosa Parks is are holding their breath over this week's episode.

In essence, you're talking about a seminal moment in the Civil Rights Era with her.

[Fyraltari]

Alien hunter/noble (sic) warrior race (so tired a trope)

I don't remember anyone calling them "noble".

[Calemyr]

And those of us on this side of the Pond who know who Rosa Parks is are holding their breath over this week's episode.

In essence, you're talking about a seminal moment in the Civil Rights Era with her.

Besides the importance of the Civil Rights Era (and Rosa Parks part in it) for Americans, there's also the kind of back-handed tone NuWho takes regarding the USA. Even while it's basking in the awe of some of the country's more breathtaking vistas, it's making small digs against it - often as relates to firearms. Combined with the already uncertain expectations for the season, this episode could be anything from incredible to really insulting, and I don't really know which it will be.