Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

[deuterio12]

Sure, if they can meet with them. But that means sending away your caster. When you could have any other caster, that doesn't just suck up your resources when you have nobody else you want to try and con. That's why I imagine they'd be considered weak, if that's what they're seen as.

1-They can still buff your units as seen with Jojo making Scarlet virtually immortal.
2-Even conning your own units is pretty useful when half of Erfworld has backstabbing syndrome, so having somebody to keep your other dudes in check is pretty useful.

That's both speculative and irrelevant.

You've run out of arguments when you're reduced to claiming that carnymancer actions are "speculative and irrelevant" for discussing carnymancy, so I'll accept your concession of defeat.

On top of this, we're arguing over how most people see Carnymancy, not about how strong it actually is (or could be, if everyone optimized it the way Charlie does.) Most people do not even know Charlie is a Carnymancer.

The argument started with why don't rulers hire more hobo casters which aren't limited to only carnymancers but if you want so badly to move goalposts since you already admitted defeat in the previous argument sure go ahead.

Most non-casters likely see Carnymancer as risky to employ and too weak to be worth the risk. That's all.

That's nothing. There's no reason presented in any book for that. Erfworlders distrust carnymancers just because the author said so.

Meanwhile Jojo and Charlie, the carnymancers getting more screentime than any other, were for most of their time seen as respected people even royals were fine working with.

Predictamancy, despite its limits, is much easier to use than Carnymancy. One predictamancer, sitting safely in the capital, can give predictions for the entire side. You can even pay a Predictamancer to make a prediction for you from the Magic Kingdom without ever having them set foot in your side! The touch range for Carnymancy means you often have to take more risks to use a Carnymancer, making the cost-benefit analysis worse.

Jojo used carnymancy to permabuff Scarlet. Carnymancers are perfectly capable of staying in one's capital helping the side, with the extra bonus of not auto-joining some giant conspiracy to screw you over.

[Morgaln]

I think one problem is that most of the casters are incredibly secretive about what their disciplines are capable of. If they would just tell the world what they can do, rulers might have more incentive to actively seek their help. It's hard to advertise your services if you don't talk about those services.

[tyckspoon]

I think one problem is that most of the casters are incredibly secretive about what their disciplines are capable of. If they would just tell the world what they can do, rulers might have more incentive to actively seek their help. It's hard to advertise your services if you don't talk about those services.

I suspect a number of casters also have no idea what their disciplines are actually capable of - that has been implied to be one of the things that separates Master-class (was there a higher tier? I don't recall..) from more run of the mill casters. Sure, you can hire a random Shockamancer, but if you believe and the caster believes that they're basically just battlefield artillery and you already have a bunch of Heavy units.. why do you need one? Turns out they actually generally manage magic as a power source, and there's all kinds of things you could probably do with that, but you need to find one who *knows* they can do that and has interacted with other kinds of magic enough to realize what their particular kind of magic could do with them, and that's not as easy to find or advertise the services of.

Edit: Hmm. We've seen some implications that, ultimately, everything on Erfworld is juice/magic/mana - upkeep is a link to the Source that must be paid for a unit's existence, portals are fed directly from the Source, casters are resupplied from the Source. So, theory: sufficiently developed Shockamancers have an understanding of the Erfworld version of matter-energy equivalency, and generally have figured out how to use magical power to pay for/energize pretty much anything in the world. (Dirtamancers would have a secondary understanding of this, as their discipline is mainly about handling Stuff with magic, but they don't really grok that it extends to basically everything on Erfworld and not just the earth and rocks.) Rands come from Shockmancy - they're magic compressed into a physical form, used in sacrifice to pay upkeep. A sort of artificially-created Schmucker. If you know how (ie, are a capable Shockmancer or have been let into the secret) you can use them as a juice battery and release the juice stored in them for other purposes. In fact, to a good enough Shockmancer, literally everything is a source of juice.. of course they don't like it to be general knowledge that they can disband you to power a fireball. It's not good PR.

[Welf]

Thinkmancers have outright mind control, yet we never see anybody refuse diplomatic meetings for sides with thinkmancers.

Then there was Don sleeping with a barbarian turnmancer.

Wanda got her big bro poisoned by a hippiemancer he slept with.

Dollmancers can curse your items if they get close enough.

Foolmancers will fool.

Basically every caster have their own dirty tricks if they can get close up and personal (except dirtmancers ironically) , yet diplomatic meetings still happen.

It's a pretty competitive option, just saying.

Yet again, Jojo gets away with it all the time.

Even Benjamin didn't notice when a carnymancer casted on him. A good conman knows how to gain people's trust to get close enough to work his magic. Carnymancy is all about working up the crowd.

And again, not really any worst than a thinkmancer giving you "suggestions" or a hippiemancer's sweet poisons or dollmancer curses.

Actually that may be why dirtmancers are so well trusted, they're the only casters that can't just screw you in subtle ways.

All these things happened, so I think I concede this point.
And to be fair, it was established early on that few casters care about other disciplines. Sizemore is one of the exceptions. Master class mancers seem to have a bit more of an idea what happens.
A lot of the balance regarding magic seems to rest on caters and warlords having limited curiosity and not really doing their job. It's been established that magic threats are the area of chief casters and they can overrule warlords if they deem necessary. But as we have seen with Wanda and Vanna the chief casters didn't warn them of dangers. I guess that is for story reasons so Parson can look smart.

[JavaScribe]

The latest.

Did my browser load the page incorrectly, or is the image currently low quality?

[-D-]

The latest.

Did my browser load the page incorrectly, or is the image currently low quality?

Text looks crisp, but the picture is of poor quality (i.e. lacking details) . Not sure if that's what you meant.

[Aquillion]

I saw it, too. It seems to be fixed now.

[The Glyphstone]

Did 2 pages go up in quick succession, or did we just miss one? I don't remember the Pod-Cast page at all, before we got to the Nautilus Machine.

[Narkis]

Did 2 pages go up in quick succession, or did we just miss one? I don't remember the Pod-Cast page at all, before we got to the Nautilus Machine.

I suspect we missed it, discussions over on the erfworld forums started on March 8th. And if you hadn't said anything I'd have assumed it was just another abrupt PoV switch.

[tomaO2]

Okay, so "atlantis" turns out to be Noah's city. Not the MK. I thought it was out in the open, given that they seemed to be in hiding. Why would they still be a piddly level 1 after this many thousand turns if they don't need to be? This is why Rob's world building doesn't make sense. Bigger cities make more money. Clearly, it should be a goal to actually get a bigger city. The island can't even be approached by fliers, so there is simply no reason to skulk. Speaking of blocking fliers, how did Noah even manage that?

I'm also shocked by the mention that most talking feral units need money. Most ferals are tribes of demihumans that don't have access to purses. Why would you be forced to pay upkeep if you don't even have a place to store it? How is upkeep paid for? Do you have to hold a gem in your hand or disband?

[pendell]

... I'm about ready to give up on Erfworld.

It was really good in books 1 and 2. But then it gradually morphed into this half-novel half-comic to where it seems more like an illustrated novel than any kind of comic. Then we had an entire book where Parson did essentially nothing. Now we've just got page after page of "prologue" about people who have nothing to do with the story.

I suppose it's entertainment to many people; Rob's dedicated tools are more than willing to pay his bills, and more power to them. I'm just not entertained any more.

Someone care to change my mind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[JavaScribe]

... I'm about ready to give up on Erfworld.

Yeah, I haven't given up on it completely, but it's no longer on my favorites list. At this point, I've gone down to checking once every few weeks.

[Leewei]

Someone care to change my mind?

Not me. I'll commiserate, though. I haven't been able to bring myself to read the last two updates. Too much already going on, and still more characters and added plotlines getting introduced.

[slayerx]

Okay, so "atlantis" turns out to be Noah's city. Not the MK. I thought it was out in the open, given that they seemed to be in hiding. Why would they still be a piddly level 1 after this many thousand turns if they don't need to be? This is why Rob's world building doesn't make sense. Bigger cities make more money. Clearly, it should be a goal to actually get a bigger city. The island can't even be approached by fliers, so there is simply no reason to skulk. Speaking of blocking fliers, how did Noah even manage that?

It takes money and resources in order to upgrade a city, and from the sounds of it nestly is severely lacking in both. If you don't have access to resources, then it doesn't matter how many turns you last; you'll never be able to upgrade. Part of the point of this story is to note the ironic cruelties of erfworld. From what i gather, Nestly is not just on an island, it may actually be landlocked on the island and not a port city; this means it can't build ships which means it can't become a proper seafaring side. The capital only has access to whatever resources are on the island itself, which is too small to have much of anything. The city itself is just like the feral warlords

Also i don't recall it being said the city can't be approached by fliers. However i think the city has large trees covering it which would make the city difficult to spot from the air.

[Anteros]

... I'm about ready to give up on Erfworld.

It was really good in books 1 and 2. But then it gradually morphed into this half-novel half-comic to where it seems more like an illustrated novel than any kind of comic. Then we had an entire book where Parson did essentially nothing. Now we've just got page after page of "prologue" about people who have nothing to do with the story.

I suppose it's entertainment to many people; Rob's dedicated tools are more than willing to pay his bills, and more power to them. I'm just not entertained any more.

Someone care to change my mind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think we're all pretty universally frustrated with the comic here. I'm sure some people on the official Erfworld forums could point out some positives to you if you really want.

[tomaO2]

It takes money and resources in order to upgrade a city, and from the sounds of it nestly is severely lacking in both.

They literally have 2 units requiring upkeep, and they grow their own food. This little city has been just sitting around for countless turns. They spend their money on little birds that go around looking at things. How about taking a break from that and save up enough smucker for a level two. Heck, why not just raze the city, collect the smuckers, make a new city (cause that seems to not cost anything), go into the MK, convert the smuckers to gems, rinse, repeat, profit.

Also i don't recall it being said the city can't be approached by fliers. However i think the city has large trees covering it which would make the city difficult to spot from the air.

I dunno, seems like that sending fliers to scout the area would be a thing that would be tried though. They want to see what is over in this area, but can't find any fliers to scout? Sooner or later they'd have to want to stop sending expensive ships.

... I'm about ready to give up on Erfworld.

Someone care to change my mind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'm like you. The people here aren't even interested enough in the story to razz on it like was done with Dominic Deegan.

Still, I do find concept of a game world to be interesting (Fumo trying to survive was the most interesting thing I've read in a long time, although now it's getting a little ridiculous again. I'm getting really sick of super casters). As much as Erfworld has strayed away from that core concept, it's literally the only story I have ever read that has done worldbuilding like this. There are lots of sent to a game world stories out there, but no sent to a wargame story.

That's why I continue to plod along on my little project of making an Erfworld Unit Creator/Battle Simulator. I've done a rough draft of the stack on stack combat rules, and creaton method.

I just finished my first playtest of the game too. It was fairly one sided.

https://forums.erfworld.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16162

I'm also tinkering with how to build up army battles. I was really fascinated by Book 2 when I studied it again. Did you know that all the battles outside of Jetstone remained on the road? What a curious concept. Not only did both sides stay on the road, but the defenders didn't move from their positions. When Ossomer's stack got zapped. All they did was shoot arrows. They didn't even try to rush in and protect him. Likewise, instead of trying to defend the bridge chokehold, GK's troops just stayed put as Tram marched his heavies down.

That makes simulating combat MUCH easier. All you are doing is having the group in front fight the enemy group in front, on a road that is big enough for about 10-20 people standing side by side. They probably push the bodies to the side of the road so they don't in the way of the next batch of fighting. No strategy, no tactics, just two armies on a road, and they clash until one is beaten. They even seem to have a limit of how many troops can be in a hex at one time. Possibly they limit it to how many can fit on the road.

Seems like the sorts of battles we are used to are mainly done at cities.

[Aquillion]

I'm like you. The people here aren't even interested enough in the story to razz on it like was done with Dominic Deegan.

It's a slightly different situation. Dominic Deegan was much more clearly bad in ways that made it fun to mock; at the same time, though, things constantly happened in it (which gave us a constant stream of things to mock.)

The problems in Erfworld are either deeper and more systemic, or come down to the story slowing to a crawl and constantly shifting to characters we're less invested in.

[super dark33]

I still like Erfworld. I enjoy reading it and dont see much problems with how its going.

What i really like about these recent updates is how its funny and banal that Noah basically has control over one of the most powerful units (and cheap!) with the power of friendship, but not the magical kind, just regular non-game-mechanics based friendship.

In general, the current book seems to be "more regular erfworld" rather than the constant power play between charlie and parson. It seems tp be building up to a point where you can really see what kind of damage these two have on the world at large.


But thats just how i feel. If you dont have fun reading erfworld then... dont. Seriously, why waste time doing somthing you dont like? I dont need to convince you of anything.

[Willie the Duck]

It's a slightly different situation. Dominic Deegan was much more clearly bad in ways that made it fun to mock; at the same time, though, things constantly happened in it (which gave us a constant stream of things to mock.)

Jack too, was great to mock-watch (although the author's beliefs certainly didn't help there). Erfworld has a bunch of issues with enjoying mocking it. Not least of course because some of the author's worst decisions have been influenced by genuine real-world horrible circumstances.

The problems in Erfworld are either deeper and more systemic, or come down to the story slowing to a crawl and constantly shifting to characters we're less invested in.

Outside of the update issues, transition in format, and the fact that the world worked better as a framework for exploring Parson's journey than it being an actual coherent and interesting world, I don't have a problem with Erfworld, it's just not as good as I once found it. It is Sluggy Freelance -- nothing specific I can point to as bad (other than things were never carefully designed in the first place, and the shows more and more as years progress), I just don't care much anymore.

[slayerx]

They literally have 2 units requiring upkeep, and they grow their own food. This little city has been just sitting around for countless turns. They spend their money on little birds that go around looking at things. How about taking a break from that and save up enough smucker for a level two. Heck, why not just raze the city, collect the smuckers, make a new city (cause that seems to not cost anything), go into the MK, convert the smuckers to gems, rinse, repeat, profit.

The seebirds are not sent out just to look at things they are also meant to scout the area and keep an eye on the nearby sides; they are the first line of the island's protection. They may not be able to report back everything right away, but they can keep an eye on usual movements by sides and can be used to see threats coming like if they see a nearby side is amassing a fleet that might be trouble for the gunwhales.... we also don't know what other expenses they may have for defense purposes. A side that small needs to keep on guard at all times

Heck the meager city they have could actually be all they have after thousands of turns; their smucker production is just so poor that even have a thousand turns they could only afford small improvements... Though thinking about it, is possible that they may need to keep the city at a level 1 if they want it to be small enough to hide in the jungle; bringing the city up a level could end up making it large enough that it can no longer be hidden.

Also while it might not cost anything to found a city, razing a city would likely only bring back the smuckers that was used to build it up from its most basic level. Razing a city that had no money invested in it would likely barely provide anything at all.

I dunno, seems like that sending fliers to scout the area would be a thing that would be tried though. They want to see what is over in this area, but can't find any fliers to scout? Sooner or later they'd have to want to stop sending expensive ships.

Actually i think that just brings up the question of what kind of flying units tidepool have if they have any at all. If they don't even have flying units at all, then ships would be their only option. If they have flying units that need to rest on land at night, then they would not be good for long distance scouting. To use fliers as scouts they would specifically need units like the seebirds who can stay aloft even at night and thus fly out for multiple turns. Units like the seebirds do exist, but its been mentioned that they are rare

Also i can't quite recall, but i don't think just ANY flying unit can be scout. The scouting unit needs to have some method of actually communicating what they see. Bats can be used as scouts because transvito warlords can see through their eyes, and the seebirds work because of natural lookamancy. This would limit flying scout options a lot more. Tidepool may not have them which is why they need to use ships

[Morgaln]

The seebirds are not sent out just to look at things they are also meant to scout the area and keep an eye on the nearby sides; they are the first line of the island's protection. They may not be able to report back everything right away, but they can keep an eye on usual movements by sides and can be used to see threats coming like if they see a nearby side is amassing a fleet that might be trouble for the gunwhales.... we also don't know what other expenses they may have for defense purposes. A side that small needs to keep on guard at all times

Heck the meager city they have could actually be all they have after thousands of turns; their smucker production is just so poor that even have a thousand turns they could only afford small improvements... Though thinking about it, is possible that they may need to keep the city at a level 1 if they want it to be small enough to hide in the jungle; bringing the city up a level could end up making it large enough that it can no longer be hidden.

Also while it might not cost anything to found a city, razing a city would likely only bring back the smuckers that was used to build it up from its most basic level. Razing a city that had no money invested in it would likely barely provide anything at all.



Actually i think that just brings up the question of what kind of flying units tidepool have if they have any at all. If they don't even have flying units at all, then ships would be their only option. If they have flying units that need to rest on land at night, then they would not be good for long distance scouting. To use fliers as scouts they would specifically need units like the seebirds who can stay aloft even at night and thus fly out for multiple turns. Units like the seebirds do exist, but its been mentioned that they are rare

Also i can't quite recall, but i don't think just ANY flying unit can be scout. The scouting unit needs to have some method of actually communicating what they see. Bats can be used as scouts because transvito warlords can see through their eyes, and the seebirds work because of natural lookamancy. This would limit flying scout options a lot more. Tidepool may not have them which is why they need to use ships

Flying units don't need to land at night. Remember how in book one, Parson parked the injured dragons over a lake, then ended the turn? If dragons couldn't stay aloft over night, they would have fallen out of the sky and drowned before Gobwin Knob's turn would have come again. I would expect Jillian to know basic information like that, thus she wouldn't have had any reason to attack those dragons. Ergo, those dragons could have stayed aloft over the lake until their next turn. One of the recent prologues mentioned that flying units will get additional movement if they land at night, but they don't have to do it.

As for the treasury, it is a question long unanswered whether cities have to produce something at all times and whether producing something costs schmuckers. If so, it's possible that the required production is costly enough that they can't save up enough schmuckers for an upgrade.

[-D-]

Not me. I'll commiserate, though. I haven't been able to bring myself to read the last two updates. Too much already going on, and still more characters and added plotlines getting introduced.

I've read them partially, but mostly I just got bored from extra plot. I guess boring people with mechanics is one way to have them forget about them, so you may use them at later date and look semi-smart.

Sadly I care about Fumo as much as Rob cares about not bloating the plot. He is an interesting and compelling character of whom I care nothing about and even if I did, I can just expect Rob to dump unceremonously (see Caesar, Wanda, etc.).

I still like Erfworld. I enjoy reading it and dont see much problems with how its going.

What i really like about these recent updates is how its funny and banal that Noah basically has control over one of the most powerful units (and cheap!) with the power of friendship, but not the magical kind, just regular non-game-mechanics based friendship.

That's straight up false - even non-magical friendship is magical friendship.

See Parson getting flung back to Erfworld when Clarence cast his spell via Jed. I.e. it's possible to use friendship for some magic effect. This fits the Erfworld mold of everything is secretly magic - Love, War, Peace, Schmuckers, Towers, Hit Points.

In general, the current book seems to be "more regular erfworld" rather than the constant power play between charlie and parson. It seems tp be building up to a point where you can really see what kind of damage these two have on the world at large.


But thats just how i feel. If you dont have fun reading erfworld then... dont. Seriously, why waste time doing somthing you dont like? I dont need to convince you of anything.

Oh boy, isn't great we don't have to hear about Vader and Luke's fight, so we can instead focus on Ulam Utupp's college roommate.

Not least of course because some of the author's worst decisions have been influenced by horrible real-world circumstances.


Outside of the update issues, transition in format, and the fact that the world worked better as a framework for exploring Parson's journey than it being an actual coherent and interesting world, I don't have a problem with Erfworld, it's just not as good as I once found it. It is Sluggy Freelance -- nothing specific I can point to as bad (other than things were never carefully designed in the first place, and the shows more and more as years progress), I just don't care much anymore.

Um, no. Look, I agree Rob has seen some rough times. However, it's not Rob circumstances that made Erfworld a boring mess it is now:

A) Rob didn't have to promise character appearance in the story
B) Rob didn't have to make those characters central to any plot
C) Yeah, I know things are tough for you, but that doesn't just mean you should kill off characters left and right

------------------------------

Actually, it's easy to point out what's wrong with Erfworld:
A) Too many characters
B) Plot tumors from dealing with too many characters
C) Too much Deus Ex Magica (Strings, Links and Carnalmancy)

[Willie the Duck]

Um, no. Look, I agree Rob has seen some rough times. However, it's not Rob circumstances that made Erfworld a boring mess it is now:

I was exclusively talking about the update frequency. Your other critiques are in no way wrong, but the killing of forward momentum seems to have preceded most of those and was the start of my (and others, IIRC) disenchantment with the stripmedia. It happened with other webcomics as well. Clan of the Cats, College Roommates from Hell, Goblins... all have had their creator's life go to pot and stalled out in some way. I want to be supportive, but on some level, you have to capture and keep people's interest while the fire is hot and the legitimacy of the excuse doesn't matter.

[super dark33]

Well, i guess keeping up with it to feel smarter than the creator and other readers by complaining all the time is one reason to keep reading.

I used to do that for that silly LFG comic a few years back, it was a miserable time.

[HorizonWalker]

It was really good in books 1 and 2.

-snip-

Someone care to change my mind?

I'm going to have to disagree with you on Book 2 being good.

See, Book 1 wasn't just good because of the wargame stuff, or being a coherent story. It was also good because it was, fundamentally, about the isekai genre as a whole, and also about the horrors of war and the nature of free will. Book 2... Didn't really have much of that. When it was about something, it was either about the facile horror that was Decryption's mind-altering properties, or about the relationships between the movers and shakers of this particular area of Erfworld. And, you know, that's okay, that's fine... but it isn't Parson standing in the ashes of ten thousand dead souls, turning his back on the world and its desire to see him make war by way of throwing his sword into a volcano and telling the world itself to get stuffed.

Sure, maybe that's hard to follow up on, but frankly, that's the sort of situation where you don't follow up on. You start something new, and let the ideas simmer on the backburner until you're sure you can follow up on the old stuff in a way that does proper justice to it.

[Doran]

Update

Really like the last picture, great positioning.

[Welf]

Heck the meager city they have could actually be all they have after thousands of turns; their smucker production is just so poor that even have a thousand turns they could only afford small improvements... Though thinking about it, is possible that they may need to keep the city at a level 1 if they want it to be small enough to hide in the jungle; bringing the city up a level could end up making it large enough that it can no longer be hidden.

Also while it might not cost anything to found a city, razing a city would likely only bring back the smuckers that was used to build it up from its most basic level. Razing a city that had no money invested in it would likely barely provide anything at all.

I can believe that thea are not able to get the money in a short time, but they had thousands of turns. Even a tiny surplus will accumulate. Also Fumo can lower the costs of upgrading by making a deal with a Dirtamancer and maybe a Thinkamancer. Guarantee them free rations for X turns that lowers their upkeep is a fair deal.

Reminds me of back in the 90s when I built a small city in SimCity with a surplus and then spent some time just clicking "next turn" until I had a lot of money and just could build as much as I want.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on Book 2 being good.

See, Book 1 wasn't just good because of the wargame stuff, or being a coherent story. It was also good because it was, fundamentally, about the isekai genre as a whole, and also about the horrors of war and the nature of free will. Book 2... Didn't really have much of that. When it was about something, it was either about the facile horror that was Decryption's mind-altering properties, or about the relationships between the movers and shakers of this particular area of Erfworld. And, you know, that's okay, that's fine... but it isn't Parson standing in the ashes of ten thousand dead souls, turning his back on the world and its desire to see him make war by way of throwing his sword into a volcano and telling the world itself to get stuffed.

Sure, maybe that's hard to follow up on, but frankly, that's the sort of situation where you don't follow up on. You start something new, and let the ideas simmer on the backburner until you're sure you can follow up on the old stuff in a way that does proper justice to it.

I remember that somewhere Rob said they were not sure if they would write a second book, or how to exactly end the first book. One potential ending was Parson going through the portal and waking up in hospital. I think the first book of Erfworld was the result of a lot of ideas that gesatetd over a long time, but after book 1 there was no real plan how to move forward.

[tomaO2]

So, I was considering the idea of how this whole smucker production thing works and I just has a eureka moment. I'm quite excited about it.

Okay, for years and years, we have speculated as to why sides are constantly in deficit. It never made sense. We even had one update that talked about a "half" army. What does a half army even mean? What is the solution Parson can't figure his way out of? What is so hard about just not popping units?

People have suggested that maybe cities can't stop popping units, but that just doesn't seem to be the case, so what is the problem we aren't seeing?

My solution is simple, you can stop producing units in cities, BUT doing so halves smucker production.

Isn't this just insidious? If you stop popping units, then you can only afford an army that is half the size of a neighbouring nation that has kept popping. Even worse, once that other side hits his own upkeep cap, he still needs to keep popping units, because the moment he stops, he drops into a nasty deficit. He was just barely making above upkeep before, but now upkeep is double his production.

If you are the side that kept growing his army, and you know that the side beside you only has a half army, what would you do? It's just so much easier to invade, right? Even if you lose, you are just gonna keep popping more units anyway, and the losses have given you more breathing room. It's actually a net benefit, and you got a good chance of winning anyway, because the other side only has an army half the size.

Who in their right mind would willingly not produce the maximum number of units they could? The danger of other sides attacking is ensures that its much too dangerous not to do so. The only way to get around something like this would be to form an alliance like the So-Be-It Union. This is the only way to feel safe enough. Possibly also killing animals that pop for rations, since that would seem to allow cities to keep popping units but not increase upkeep. There might be moral issues with doing so though. Not as severe as with disbanding troops, but I'd imagine there are disincentives.

Of course, this doesn't answer every question, but I feel this gives a good basis to build from. I think it's a much more elegant, and sneaky, mechanic than anything I have heard before. It just fits with everything I know about Erfworld. This answers so many things that have baffled me that I can't help but slot it in as my new headcanon.

[JavaScribe]

My solution is simple, you can stop producing units in cities, BUT doing so halves smucker production.

What about units you can harvest?

[tomaO2]

Should work, which was probably why Parson was focusing on it.

There is probably a disincentive to do so though, which is why Parson was uncertain. Maybe a moral loss? Probably not as bad as disbanding troops, but they probably think of those animals like pets, and no one likes eating their little doggy. Certainly Slately found it upsetting to have killed off his sourmanders for upkeep. Overall, I feel that most sides would find killing someone else to be a better option than killing their own, and that is the choice you are left with once your upkeep matches smucker production, because stopping it means immediate deficit.

Could be other reasons too, and maybe not every side has units that can be harvested in the first place. Could be a size limit, for instance. Maybe sourmanders can be harvested but smaller units, like orleys, cannot?