Dnd becoming hyper saturated and "lacking identity" alongside the rest o nerd culture

[PhoenixPhyre]

Count me as very glad that the stereotype is being destroyed. Exactly none of my play groups fit that mold--

Group 1:
I'm the closest thing to the stereotype, being an overweight nerd who avoids the outside. The others are either young or married (and still young). We're all professionals (3 teachers, 1 IT manager) except the wife of one of the players, who stays at home with their 1-year-old daughter. None of us lack hygene. Most of us are homeowners.

Group 2:
* Myself as DM
* An attorney-turned-teacher (with a family), one of the most clean-cut, well-dressed people I've ever met.
* A PhD organic chemist-turned-teacher (openly gay, with a family)
* A 50+-year-old spanish teacher/empty-nester.

None of them are even close to the stereotypes. They all had a blast in our summer campaign.

I've played with some of the stereotypical ones (in public games). It stank (literally and figuratively). Their "roleplaying" is the only form of murder-hoboism I've seen, including the 4 years of teenage school groups I've run. So forgive me if I prefer the new way.

[Anonymouswizard]

One thing that always interests me about the "x is too dumbed down!" arguments is that a lot of times, people fail to take into consideration their years and years of built up systems mastery that can help transfer from game to game. You see it in video games, and I'm seeing it in RPGs right now.

People also can fail to notice the difference between steamlined, dumbed down, and cut back, and how those can combine with being more complex (4e cut D&D back to mostly just the combat rules, but made those more deep and complex).

Some of my favourite games these days are streamlined. They know what they want to focus on and they focus on it. Unknown Armies has it's five Shock Guages/Madness Meters, and in the latest edition made them give your character their core capabilities. While it seems a bit weird, it ties into the fact that essentially everything that defines your character in UA3e is part of their personality. Their Obsession, their Rage/Noble/Fear Triggers, their Shock Guages, and their Identities. The only thing on your character sheet not directly related is your five Relationships, which can only be used with the subjects of those relationships. It all ties together and works for a game about insane, obsessed people with magickal powers to help them get what they want. Then again a big draw for UA was it's amazing fluff, and the new rules encourage characters who better fit that fluff.

One of my big problems with 5e is how it isn't streamlined at all. Simplified (and cut down to essentials in a handful of areas), but there's no unifying vision behind it. It's attempting to be a 'highlights of the fantasy genre' thing while retaining all the sacred cows, and ends up as an undirected mess compared to the heroic fantasy focus of the early editions (which, I must admit, became an undirected mess of rules in the AD&D line, despite how much I love 2e BD&D was just better). Despite the fact that I'd never actually run it I have much more respect for Cubicle 7's Adventures in Middle Earth supplements than the entirity of 5e's core line, AiME knows exactly what it wants to be (helped by drawing from an established setting), and sets out to be exactly that, focusing it's mechanics so that players primarily play nonmagical characters (there's a handful of options in the corebook that give minor spells), giving rules for journies that make them feel more like an undertaking, and even some 'corruption' mechanics.

[Nifft]

Count me as very glad that the stereotype is being destroyed. Exactly none of my play groups fit that mold--

Group 1:
I'm the closest thing to the stereotype, being an overweight nerd who avoids the outside. The others are either young or married (and still young). We're all professionals (3 teachers, 1 IT manager) except the wife of one of the players, who stays at home with their 1-year-old daughter. None of us lack hygene. Most of us are homeowners.

Group 2:
* Myself as DM
* An attorney-turned-teacher (with a family), one of the most clean-cut, well-dressed people I've ever met.
* A PhD organic chemist-turned-teacher (openly gay, with a family)
* A 50+-year-old spanish teacher/empty-nester.

None of them are even close to the stereotypes. They all had a blast in our summer campaign.

I've played with some of the stereotypical ones (in public games). It stank (literally and figuratively). Their "roleplaying" is the only form of murder-hoboism I've seen, including the 4 years of teenage school groups I've run. So forgive me if I prefer the new way.

Seconded.

I enjoy RPGs with grown-ups who have lives going on outside the game.

The effect of having a real life -- spouse, kids, other interests, work responsibilities, etc. -- mean that finding time is much more difficult, but playing with interesting people makes it worth the trouble. Mostly.

[Max_Killjoy]

The problem is the lack of core consistency. Even with taking from everywhere it used to come back to those core themes. Be it's just 'heroism', with no core themes to define what heroism is.

And now I've got plans to take the mercenary ideals of D&D and make it the core theme of a setting, probably alongside themes of eternal change and social unrest.

Indeed, it's kinda funny to see the posters complaining about the phantom boogieman of "appropriation" in a thread about D&D of all things, for which the default implied setting is in a way, regarding fiction and myth and cultures, "Appropriation": the Game.

[PhoenixPhyre]

People also can fail to notice the difference between steamlined, dumbed down, and cut back, and how those can combine with being more complex (4e cut D&D back to mostly just the combat rules, but made those more deep and complex).

Some of my favourite games these days are streamlined. They know what they want to focus on and they focus on it. Unknown Armies has it's five Shock Guages/Madness Meters, and in the latest edition made them give your character their core capabilities. While it seems a bit weird, it ties into the fact that essentially everything that defines your character in UA3e is part of their personality. Their Obsession, their Rage/Noble/Fear Triggers, their Shock Guages, and their Identities. The only thing on your character sheet not directly related is your five Relationships, which can only be used with the subjects of those relationships. It all ties together and works for a game about insane, obsessed people with magickal powers to help them get what they want. Then again a big draw for UA was it's amazing fluff, and the new rules encourage characters who better fit that fluff.

One of my big problems with 5e is how it isn't streamlined at all. Simplified (and cut down to essentials in a handful of areas), but there's no unifying vision behind it. It's attempting to be a 'highlights of the fantasy genre' thing while retaining all the sacred cows, and ends up as an undirected mess compared to the heroic fantasy focus of the early editions (which, I must admit, became an undirected mess of rules in the AD&D line, despite how much I love 2e BD&D was just better). Despite the fact that I'd never actually run it I have much more respect for Cubicle 7's Adventures in Middle Earth supplements than the entirity of 5e's core line, AiME knows exactly what it wants to be (helped by drawing from an established setting), and sets out to be exactly that, focusing it's mechanics so that players primarily play nonmagical characters (there's a handful of options in the corebook that give minor spells), giving rules for journies that make them feel more like an undertaking, and even some 'corruption' mechanics.

To me, "knows what it wants to be and focuses on it" translates to "has a narrow niche." Which is fine. But not my preference at all. I want the rule system itself to stay more broad-brush and let me add the specifics. So I can do dungeon crawls one session and politics another, in areas ranging from gonzo high magic to (comparatively) much lower magic. All without having to learn (and find players for) a succession of niche systems, each with their own quirks.

To each their own.

[2D8HP]

To me, "knows what it wants to be and focuses on it" translates to "has a narrow niche." Which is fine. But not my preference at all. I want the rule system itself to stay more broad-brush and let me add the specifics. So I can do dungeon crawls one session and politics another, in areas ranging from gonzo high magic to (comparatively) much lower magic. All without having to learn (and find players for) a succession of niche systems, each with their own quirks.

To each their own.

I like both (I loved the GURPS "Worldbooks").

I love me some D&D (or Stormbringer!) Swords & Sorcery, but one of my favorite RPG's is Pendragon, in which you play an Arthurian Squire, Knight or Lady (unless you played the 4th edition, which had Magic-User PC's as well, but subsequent editions dropped that mess!), and it's a narrow focus I love.

Mythic Iceland, in which you play a Viking age Icelander is also very cool, as was Call of Cthullu in which you play a 1920's, well....

....basically monster lunch.

Judging by the contents of one of my old boxes, I also once loved Cyberpunk (and even Vampire), but I think actually living in the 21st century cured my of that!

[Max_Killjoy]

See, in this case the social norms are things like "don't be a jerk to girls just because they're girls, shower every two to three days, wear clean clothes every day, brush your teeth in the morning and evening, brush/comb your hair if it's long enough for that to matter."

Like, it's not stamping out a unique nerd culture here, it's basic hygiene and social skills. Some guys are just mad because they can't hide behind D&D to explain their conscious decision to refuse to look after themselves to a basic level anymore.

If you're (not you personally, generic you) mad that someone looks down on gamers as unwashed, immature, manchildren... Stop dressing and acting like one. Lord of the Rings: TFoTR was 17 years ago, there are D&D players alive today who weren't around when fantasy was uncool.

Yeah, if bad hygiene and loathsome personal habits really are a part of one's "culture", then one might wish to find another "culture".

[Nifft]

Yeah, if bad hygiene and loathsome personal habits really are a part of one's "culture", then one might wish to find another "culture".

Those certainly weren't part of RPG culture back in the days when it got documented in E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial.

[Max_Killjoy]

Those certainly weren't part of RPG culture back in the days when it got documented in E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial.

You are correct, they were not. Thus the quotation marks.

They never have been. As someone else stated, being a "nerd" has just been a fig leaf for some people to stink up the place because they can't be bothered or as an act of smell rebellion.


Back in college, there was a set of rooms we had access to on Friday night and Sunday afternoon, that we used for the gaming club.

One particular room was used on Friday nights by a bunch of players of a game that was just then coming into its surge in popularity, at least in this area.

No one used that room on Sunday, because it was still funky... we referred to it sarcastically as "the smell of magic".

[Knaight]

But other things that caused people to not be accepted haven't been changed, particularly the ones related to the 'smelly nerd' stereotype. Now I have a lot of trouble with personal grooming, I hate using hair gel and my curls make my hair look scruffy at the longer varieties of 'male professional' (on the other hand I'm not going back to the shorter varieties, I like my curls), plus I have a beard that looks terrible unless it's been trimmed within the last couple of days. But I'm in a job where I'm allowed to look a bit scruffy, do neaten up when asked, none of my friends care about the scruffyness, and I now can't go more than a day before I begin feeling greasy and search for a shower.

Sure, but scruffy and unclean are two very different things. Someone being disheveled instead of neat is no skin off anyone else's back; someone being pungent is skin off the backs of everyone within a several yard radius.

[woweedd]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/

That's what you sound like right now.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sure, but scruffy and unclean are two very different things. Someone being disheveled instead of neat is no skin off anyone else's back; someone being pungent is skin off the backs of everyone within a several yard radius.

Especially the mix of BO, sweat, and tobacco/alcohol/pot. That's a lasting obnoxiousness.

[Anonymouswizard]

To me, "knows what it wants to be and focuses on it" translates to "has a narrow niche." Which is fine. But not my preference at all. I want the rule system itself to stay more broad-brush and let me add the specifics. So I can do dungeon crawls one session and politics another, in areas ranging from gonzo high magic to (comparatively) much lower magic. All without having to learn (and find players for) a succession of niche systems, each with their own quirks.

To each their own.

Focusing doesn't have to mean a narrow result. The problem with with D&D is that it doesn't focus at all. Not even in the way something like GURPS does (which goes for a focus on realism and human scales).

Sure, but scruffy and unclean are two very different things. Someone being disheveled instead of neat is no skin off anyone else's back; someone being pungent is skin off the backs of everyone within a several yard radius.

Sure, I should have made it clear that at the level I'm at I have no problems, but I used to STINK simply because I didn't shower enough. Heck I probably should use deodorant to mitigate any stink that builds up during the day, but most people accept bring a tad smelly at the end of the day if you've remembered to wash in the morning and after exercise.

I have trouble with personal grooming, but not basic cleanliness. There's probably some people who wouldn't associate with me because of the fact I look disheveled and didn't put hours in to get the look.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Focusing doesn't have to mean a narrow result. The problem with with D&D is that it doesn't focus at all. Not even in the way something like GURPS does (which goes for a focus on realism and human scales).

Doesn't have to, but all too frequently does. It's the theory/practice divide. A large part of it is that I prefer my rulesets wide-open and covering a bunch of different abstraction levels (in different parts). Because that makes it easy for me to pick and choose which rules to apply where and to adjust/tinker with things.

An analogy--
old-school LEGO sets were pretty generic. Almost all the pieces were standard building blocks, with a few specialized pieces for that particular shape. This meant that replicating an exact design was harder, but you could mix and match pieces to build things never thought of by the designers. And if you lost one piece, there were a dozen more exact duplicates (although possibly in different colors) in other sets.

Modern LEGO sets are much more specialized, with lots of custom pieces. But that limits the amount of mixing and matching one can do. And heaven help you if you lose one of those custom pieces.

For me, RPG rule-sets are better when they're like the old-school LEGOs. Flexible mechanics that can be used across a wide variety of situations and genres and aesthetics. Yes, even if this means you have some rough edges and mismatched pieces. So for me, "focus" feels like replacing my beloved generic LEGO pieces with beautiful, custom built ones. It misses the entire point of a rule-set.

If I want a more "realistic" or "gritty" game with D&D, I can tweak the levers to get there (within reason). And I can do this on a session-by-session basis: use different variant rules for different sessions (carefully flagged, of course). But starting from GURPS, I can't get something that feels like D&D, because the gritty combat is baked deep into the system. It's why I don't like the AW-line -- it tries to tell me how to play, as if it's in charge. And if you don't do what it wants, the whole game falls apart. Whereas in D&D (5e at least), I can experiment, switch styles/rule variants on a group-by-group or even a session-by-session basis and nothing breaks.

[DMThac0]

Whereas in D&D (5e at least), I can experiment, switch styles/rule variants on a group-by-group or even a session-by-session basis and nothing breaks.

As well, on the off chance it does break, there is so much leeway and freedom of expression/choice that patching up that error is almost as seamless as making it in the first place.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As well, on the off chance it does break, there is so much leeway and freedom of expression/choice that patching up that error is almost as seamless as making it in the first place.

That's my experience as well. It's one reason I don't like more "tightly defined" systems (mechanically). They tend to be like fancy cars--beautiful machines that have very small tolerances for error. While my system may run a bit rougher, it's also ok with me making adjustments on the fly.

[Knaight]

Especially the mix of BO, sweat, and tobacco/alcohol/pot. That's a lasting obnoxiousness.

Though this is a good example of how this isn't necessarily a nerd thing specifically - the people I've known who were worst about this were consistently not nerds, but urban cowboy types (people who used "cowboy" attire as cultural markers but never seemed to show up at an actual farm or ranch), and the disgusting things they did with chewing tobacco.

I've known the occasional stinky nerd to stink up a place, and I'm less than happy to see it. I'll still take it over deciding that the proper way to get rid of chewing tobacco is to spit it in a water fountain, or even just the constant chew-spit cycle in a bottle for every minute of every day.

I have trouble with personal grooming, but not basic cleanliness. There's probably some people who wouldn't associate with me because of the fact I look disheveled and didn't put hours in to get the look.

Sure, there are. The point is that there's a meaningful difference between that group and the people who wouldn't associate with people because of their constant stink and it coming from an unwillingness to simply shower.

Going to visual stuff alone there's a difference between being unkempt and deciding that as a statement you're going to wear a bright strobelight aimed at approximate eye height.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Spoiler: OP, with paragraph breaks

Show

This is the first time I write on this forum. I specifically chose Giant in the Playground and not other online platforms because most folks around are veterans and able to present a well established argument on why things are the way it is presently. The topics I would like to discuss are the changes that are occurring in terms of dnd and nerdculture itself.

I don´t mean to sound agressive and hateful towards people o started the hobbie recently, hell I've been only playing since 2014, however along these last years I´ve been distancing from present day Dnd and being more related to older editions (3.5, 3rd and 2nd, more precisely ). Again I don´t mean to be disrespectful, but I feel that Dnd is lacking a charm that older editions naturally have. This is mostly due to the change the ocorred to nerd and geek culture that I felt made D&d, video games, comic books and other media exciting.

I feel that they oversimplified the game to appeal a new wave of people that a few years back would probably disregard D&D. This doesn't mean it's something bad, by the contrary, the game is getting the recognition it deserves, however, the problem comes from the fact that attracted a group of people that consider it cool because nowadays "it´s cool to like and participate in RPGs". I might sound cynical given the fact I've only started it recently, but all my life I was judged for being a geek due to liking old video games, comic books and strategy board games. Funny enough, I liked, especially due to a fact I dealt with a minority of people that to this day we still hangout and consider them my best friends. I didn't mind wasting afternoons playing Talisman or Heroclix, it was fun and I was spending time with people that really did get me.

Nowadays forget it. Everyone belongs to the nerd and geek crew because it´s cool. Just as cool as wearing a t-shirt from a band you don´t even listen too. The same can be said about the Super Hero genre, Star Wars and alike. I started taking this matter very seriously when I was watching a video about Joe Manganiello talking about his experiences with D&D. He stated that he stopped playing D&D because during that time it was considered nerdy by society and he didn't want to be considered that type of person, only to later resume a few years later when it was recently considered cool. I didn't really comprehend why one would stop playing for that specific reason, but to each his own.

The question I wanted to ask you guys was simply your opinion about this matter, what do you think? What´s your opinion about the state of D&D and the nerd and geek culture of present times? Do you think I´m being overly critical and hypocritical. Thank you for reading my post and have stupendous day ;)

I... uh... this... No. We should be trying to build bridges, not walls. I think this move towards mainstream acceptance is a positive direction to take our hobby.

I hear this and variations on this theme a lot, actually. "They made it simpler to make it mainstream, now it sucks!" I could speculate on why there's this attitude, but I won't. It's a form of gatekeeping, though, and I don't think it's a good thing.

However, there's no reasonable way to change your mind. If what you want out of the hobby is a barrier to separate you and your immediate friends from the "cool kids", there's nothing I can say to change your opinion, and you're right, D&D becoming mainstream is absolutely destroying what you want out of it.


That said, there's also a more pragmatic reason for why a move towards mainstream is good, and why it's happening: no company can survive by providing a niche product to a small and increasingly dwindling group of people. No hobby can survive as a small, insular, and increasingly dwindling and fractured group of people.


Anyway, I think that tabletop roleplaying, as an element of "geek/nerd culture", is in an excellent and improving place, with widespread positive awareness and increasing participation, especially among young people. D&D is at the core and forefront of it, and bears significant responsibility for making the hobby accessible and acceptable.

[Nifft]

I... uh... this... No. We should be trying to build bridges, not walls. I think this move towards mainstream acceptance is a positive direction to take our hobby.

But if we build too many bridges, then girls may start playing RPGs, and as we all know girls have cooties.

[JNAProductions]

But if we build too many bridges, then girls may start playing RPGs, and as we all know girls have cooties.

Perfect logic. Zero flaws.

To the OP... Who really cares? I do understand the desire to have something unique to you or your friend group, but speaking honestly, which is better:

1) You move to a new place, away from your old friends, and have this cool, super awesome hobby that no one else does or even knows about, and you can't do it because it's a group activity.

Or...

2) You move to a new place, away from your old friends, and have this cool, super awesome hobby that a decent amount of other people do, and through that, you're able to find new friends and have a good time.

[Anonymouswizard]

Sure, there are. The point is that there's a meaningful difference between that group and the people who wouldn't associate with people because of their constant stink and it coming from an unwillingness to simply shower.

Going to visual stuff alone there's a difference between being unkempt and deciding that as a statement you're going to wear a bright strobelight aimed at approximate eye height.

Of course. Strobelights are a crotch accessory.

In all seriousness, that's been my point as well. You can be unreasonable as hell, and still be accepted if your don't stink.

[JAL_1138]

This thread is making me think of the posts that always get made to local Adventurers’ League and other gaming groups on Facebook in late spring and summer before cons or other reasonably-crowded events, reminding/begging people to please wear deodorant. Summer around here tends to regularly have daytime temperatures in the mid-high-80s to mid-90s, and humidity somewhere between “sauna” and “so muggy it’d be drier to jump in a lake,” so if someone doesn’t, it gets, uh, noticeable pretty quick. And there’s always someone...or several someones...let’s just say summertime conventions in the southern US can develop some serious funk by the end of the day.

[2D8HP]

Strobelights?

Funk?

Cooties?

It's a Disco!

[Lord Torath]

But if we build too many bridges, then girls may start playing RPGs, and as we all know girls have cooties.

Hah! My grandma had Cooties! But my cousins lost most of the pieces, so she eventually got rid of them. I loved that game when I was young.

I... uh... this... No. We should be trying to build bridges, not walls. I think this move towards mainstream acceptance is a positive direction to take our hobby.

I hear this and variations on this theme a lot, actually. "They made it simpler to make it mainstream, now it sucks!" I could speculate on why there's this attitude, but I won't. It's a form of gatekeeping, though, and I don't think it's a good thing.

However, there's no reasonable way to change your mind. If what you want out of the hobby is a barrier to separate you and your immediate friends from the "cool kids", there's nothing I can say to change your opinion, and you're right, D&D becoming mainstream is absolutely destroying what you want out of it.


That said, there's also a more pragmatic reason for why a move towards mainstream is good, and why it's happening: no company can survive by providing a niche product to a small and increasingly dwindling group of people. No hobby can survive as a small, insular, and increasingly dwindling and fractured group of people.


Anyway, I think that tabletop roleplaying, as an element of "geek/nerd culture", is in an excellent and improving place, with widespread positive awareness and increasing participation, especially among young people. D&D is at the core and forefront of it, and bears significant responsibility for making the hobby accessible and acceptable.

I completely agree with you!

[JAL_1138]

Strobelights?

Funk?

Cooties?

It's a Disco!

[Nifft]

Hah! My grandma had Cooties! But my cousins lost most of the pieces, so she eventually got rid of them. I loved that game when I was young.

Was your grandmother ever a girl?

If so, the theory is confirmed.

That's a funky battle map.

The figurine in the center looks Huge, since he's covering 3 squares.

[BreaktheStatue]

I am a lifelong "nerd" - especially so when I was in high school. Not so long ago, but it was before "nerd culture" was socially acceptable. I didn't stink, but I did get bullied, and I didn't have a lot of friends. I liked all the typical nerd things, RPGs included, back when they were niche and unpopular.

But to me, if a new generation of kids can grow-up enjoying the same sort of things I did/do without being socially ostracized for it, I think it's GREAT. Good for them.

Their emotional well-being is more important to me than whatever since of resentment I could have (I don't) about "normies" coming into the hobby.

It's easy to be nostalgic about some stupid "good old days" nerd identity, but I think that nostalgia is a coping mechanism to deal with a lot of terrible, emotional trauma.

[JAL_1138]

We’ve now reached a point where an Acquisitions Incorporated D&D game was livestreamed into movie theaters. The hobby is genuinely growing again, for the first time in a long while.

But keep in mind that this isn’t strictly speaking new. Back in the days of Red Box—one of the most successful RPG products ever—D&D was also massively popular, with a Saturday-morning cartoon, a reference in E.T., around a dozen licensed video games, merch, multiple bestselling book series, and sales of core products in Sears catalogues. It didn’t really dwindle until the end of the 80s and the early 90s, despite the attempts of the Satanic Panic moral guardians—what hurt it most was probably a combination of factors such as the expansion of home video, the rebirth of video game consoles with the NES, competition from numerous other products (e.g., White Wolf, West end Games, Steve Jackson games, etc.), the dawn of the TCG craze, mismanagement at TSR, and a host of other home-entertainment options and business issues, that pushed it into more of a niche thing. What’s happening with D&D’s popularity now is arguably less of a new phenomenon and more of a resurgence (though one that seems to have grown past its prior peak, if Mearls’ claims that 5e has outsold Red Box are accurate).

The relative obscurity and barriers to entry of D&D (and other RPGs) from the mid 90s to the 2010s aren’t the whole story of the game’s history and pop-cultural impact.

[mephnick]

I think it's a good thing there are a lot more..uh.."balanced" people in the RPG public these days. I've been running D&D games since the 90's and I've been terrified of game stores since I was a teenager. The game store weirdo is a bad stereotype, but damn..I've met some real ****ing weirdos trying to do things at game stores that I would never meet at work, on a soccer team, or running club. The fact that some of these people from other areas in my life may also be interested in RPGs and video-games is revolutionary and has only made my life and hobby better.

[Knaight]

It didn’t really dwindle until the end of the 80s and the early 90s, despite the attempts of the Satanic Panic moral guardians—what hurt it most was probably a combination of factors such as the expansion of home video, the rebirth of video game consoles with the NES, competition from numerous other products (e.g., White Wolf, West end Games, Steve Jackson games, etc.), the dawn of the TCG craze, mismanagement at TSR, and a host of other home-entertainment options and business issues, that pushed it into more of a niche thing.

I'd argue that the satanic panic moral guardians were one of the single best things that happened to D&D as a product (in the context of the lived experiences of individual D&D players, not so much). The adage "no publicity is bad publicity" exists for a reason, and blowing off authority figures when they're losing their crap over approximately nothing is a long running youth hobby, even if they would have absolutely no interest in what the authority figures are spouting off about otherwise.