OOTS #1141 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

I know I'm totally biased in my sympathy for Redcloak but I do try to acknowledge his crimes and the more-than-likely possibility he will die unredeemed.

On this note....Like I believe you've said before, Redcloak's been motivated by the Plan and the Crimson Mantle since his first chronological appearance in Start of Darkness...and followed the Dark One since before then. How reliably can we really untangle the desires of Redcloak/the Dark One/the Crimson Mantle? Especially after

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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agreeing to continue with Xykon and the Plan so he didn't have to accept he killed Right-Eye for nothing...meaning Redcloak gained a personal motivation in following the motivation of the Plan which is the output of the Crimson Mantle from the motivation of the Dark One

? How detectable a difference is there between "Redcloak serves himself by following a Plan that serves goblin people" vs "Redcloak serves goblin people by following a Plan that serves himself"?

Simply having an opinion on Redcloak's exact motivations can appear unduly biased, no matter what it is. I start from Redcloak's actions and work backwards towards his motivations because, frankly, ending with assumptions allows me a lot more adaptability when new comics come along than starting with them does; and having assumptions align with the comic is nearly inherent. Also because actions speak a heck of a lot louder than words when there aren't words. Also because it necessitates Redcloak's agency staying front and center. Also because it highlights an obvious weakness in Redcloak's status quo (StaRedQuoak? O_o ) : Redcloak's belief that the Plan will accomplish what he believes it will accomplish.

It remains an opinion, however.

[Rakaydos]

I am still not sure what colour model (s) the story is using and whether orange is important as people have mentioned.on the thread.

So options.
1/ RGB is the additive model

2/ CMYK is the subtractive model, but that doesnt work with crayons , but colours exactly opposite each other cancel each other out so that's sort of cool. But we now that the gods are sentient black hole thingies. If Thor gives off yellow then he might be sucking in all the other colours . ???

3/ Red Blue yellow.
and the mixes orange purple.and green which together form the colour wheel.
Colours opposite each other are called complementary because they work well together. :-)

4/ standard original.crayon colours from wiki
"The Eagle Pencil Company, New York, NY, featured a line of wax crayons offered up in 6 and 12 count boxes with a color line that included White, Pink, Violet, Terrasienna, Yellow, Blue, Brick Red, Brown, Orange, Red, Green and Black.'

If we're equating purple with black in a CMYK model, we can also equate yellow with white in a RGBW model.

After green was eliminated from RGBW, white mutated into yellow to create a simplified RYB pallet. The addition of the dark one recontectualizes red into Magenta and blue into cyan for a more modern CMYK Four Color Hero pallet.

[Larre Gannd]

If we're equating purple with black in a CMYK model, we can also equate yellow with white in a RGBW model.

After green was eliminated from RGBW, white mutated into yellow to create a simplified RYB pallet. The addition of the dark one recontectualizes red into Magenta and blue into cyan for a more modern CMYK Four Color Hero pallet.

I would render a guess that the colors are just how mortals simplify the Gods’ powers. After all, Thor simplified it for Durkon and Minrah. I wonder if their auras come from how they came into power. I don’t know if someone already said that
(I bet someone did), but, while belief sustains the gods, that is probably not how they were deified. The Dark One was literally created by the sheer anger of, like, all of the goblins on the earth, not even belief. Question is; since the dark one was a person, and therefore made up of Red, Blue and Yellow, what makes him purple?

[gatemansgc]

The Dark One was literally created by the sheer anger of, like, all of the goblins on the earth, not even belief. Question is; since the dark one was a person, and therefore made up of Red, Blue and Yellow, what makes him purple?

this is actually a very good question. another question will be whether this is answered in the next comic or will it be sometime after? i don't think most non-goblins know the dark one even exists, thor may be giving backstory unrelated to color in the next comic.

[Doug Lampert]

However, in OotS we have the example of Roy, whose corpse was turned into a bone golem without any obvious change to the disposition of his soul, which remained on Celestia with his mother and grandfather--yet they still had to destroy the golem before Durkon could start casting Resurrection.

Bone Golems are not undead. Completely different magic.

[Lord Raziere]

Thanks, Kish! I know I'm totally biased in my sympathy for Redcloak but I do try to acknowledge his crimes and the more-than-likely possibility he will die unredeemed. I'm glad a level-headed person like you doesn't think I'm coming off like I'm trying to whitewash him entirely. Also I'm grateful you say there's at least a chance of redemption happening. (This thread was a bit of a downer after the joy I got from the initial comic!)

I could see Jirix going either way... when he first stomped on the roach back in 833, I remember thinking (and posting) that it felt really ominous, but in retrospect you could argue that it's in fact an auspicious sign. Yeah, the roach was not posing a threat or doing anything bad, but they ARE demonic fire-breathing roaches who are aligned (somewhat) with Xykon, so maybe his unwillingness to keep them around is a positive indication of where Gobbotopia will go under his leadership. He's a hobgoblin who was quite willing to obey and look up to a green goblin as a mentor, and we've seen not all hobgoblins are so benignly disposed toward their "cousins", so that could be a point in his favor.

Alternately, maybe I was right the first time and he'll take the worst possible spin on all of the generally evil advice Redcloak gave him and turn into a complete racist dictator.

Heres the problem with Redcloak not being redeemed and Jirix helping instead:

The Order of the Stick has no freaking clue who Jirix is.

Even if they did? Jirix is in a nation in the SOUTH. They, are in the NORTH. While on a limited frame of time. To save the world, they have to get to the person involved as fast as possible, and Jirix is way farther than Redcloak.

They do not know anyone with teleportation abilities enough to get them to Azure City.

While its possible for Thor to tell him about Jirix, and for them to cast Sending, good luck getting all that Thor talked about across in increments of 25 words or less. And even if they got the message across, there is no guarantee that The Dark One will listen to Jirix over Redcloak when he is so close to finishing their plan, and in fact might make the Dark One smile

The other option is for them to simply kill Xykon and Redcloak then go to Jirix afterwards to work this out. More plausible than the others, but it still has the problem of Not Knowing Who The Heck Jirix Is. and there is no guarantee Thor knows who Jirix is either? The other problem with this is the Snarl. Based on the desert rift having snarl-stuff clawing outwards, the Snarl is going to break out soon. They may not have the time to travel back to Jirix to convince the Dark One, while The Dark One themselves will be looking at their most prized High Priest being killed and on his plane and seeing that humans haven't changed.....

....which means HOW they convince the Dark One is just as important as convincing him. If Redcloak dies, the Dark One will have an excuse to not cooperate, let the current world be destroyed then remake it so that the next one is better to goblinkind AND immune/resistant to the Snarl while condemning the current one to its fate. Its a petty excuse, but gods are nothing if not petty. and Roy is battling for the right of the CURRENT world to exist. Redcloak needs to live for that to happen.

In fact I'd go so far as to say Redcloak being redeemed....is REQUIRED to make sure the current world exists, or all that they will have accomplished is making sure the next world is safe, not their own. Because while Redcloak needs be stopped, The Dark One is the person who truly needs to be convinced of this world's right to exist. And the Dark One has a lot of negative emotions about this world. He is the one that got killed here after all and started this whole crazy plan in the first place. Words alone will not sway a deity who has held anger against all of humanity for likely centuries and is in the exact position to say "let the current humans die. they deserve death for their sins against my kind. let the slate be wiped clean and whatever new humans be free of the sin against mine in the next world." After all, the Dark One wins no matter what scenario happens- its making sure everyone else wins as well.

[Rrmcklin]

Heres the problem with Redcloak not being redeemed and Jirix helping instead:

The Order of the Stick has no freaking clue who Jirix is.

Even if they did? Jirix is in a nation in the SOUTH. They, are in the NORTH. While on a limited frame of time. To save the world, they have to get to the person involved as fast as possible, and Jirix is way farther than Redcloak.

They do not know anyone with teleportation abilities enough to get them to Azure City.

While its possible for Thor to tell him about Jirix, and for them to cast Sending, good luck getting all that Thor talked about across in increments of 25 words or less. And even if they got the message across, there is no guarantee that The Dark One will listen to Jirix over Redcloak when he is so close to finishing their plan, and in fact might make the Dark One smile

The other option is for them to simply kill Xykon and Redcloak then go to Jirix afterwards to work this out. More plausible than the others, but it still has the problem of Not Knowing Who The Heck Jirix Is. and there is no guarantee Thor knows who Jirix is either? The other problem with this is the Snarl. Based on the desert rift having snarl-stuff clawing outwards, the Snarl is going to break out soon. They may not have the time to travel back to Jirix to convince the Dark One, while The Dark One themselves will be looking at their most prized High Priest being killed and on his plane and seeing that humans haven't changed.....

....which means HOW they convince the Dark One is just as important as convincing him. If Redcloak dies, the Dark One will have an excuse to not cooperate, let the current world be destroyed then remake it so that the next one is better to goblinkind AND immune/resistant to the Snarl while condemning the current one to its fate. Its a petty excuse, but gods are nothing if not petty. and Roy is battling for the right of the CURRENT world to exist. Redcloak needs to live for that to happen.

In fact I'd go so far as to say Redcloak being redeemed....is REQUIRED to make sure the current world exists, or all that they will have accomplished is making sure the next world is safe, not their own. Because while Redcloak needs be stopped, The Dark One is the person who truly needs to be convinced of this world's right to exist. And the Dark One has a lot of negative emotions about this world. He is the one that got killed here after all and started this whole crazy plan in the first place. Words alone will not sway a deity who has held anger against all of humanity for likely centuries and is in the exact position to say "let the current humans die. they deserve death for their sins against my kind. let the slate be wiped clean and whatever new humans be free of the sin against mine in the next world." After all, the Dark One wins no matter what scenario happens- its making sure everyone else wins as well.

All of this is pretty definitive considering we don't even have any idea about what Thor is actually about to say. I'd say it makes more sense to wait for that instead of making proclamations about how the story has to go.

[Yirggzmb]

Question is; since the dark one was a person, and therefore made up of Red, Blue and Yellow, what makes him purple?

My personal theory is that ascended mortals aren't literally the same individual. They're the collective ideas about the individual, given god form. Like, perhaps they get all of the memories of the mortal, or perhaps not. But either way, they might as well think they're the same person, but they're really just powered/made of thoughts. It would explain what happens to their mortal "colors" anyway.

[CantRecoverOld]

My personal theory is that ascended mortals aren't literally the same individual. They're the collective ideas about the individual, given god form. Like, perhaps they get all of the memories of the mortal, or perhaps not. But either way, they might as well think they're the same person, but they're really just powered/made of thoughts. It would explain what happens to their mortal "colors" anyway.

When The Dark One was just another Goblin, he was the centerpoint of the hopes and dreams of millions of Goblins who wanted to break the bonds of their servitude. When TDO's mortal body died, the faith of millions of Goblins hoping and believing that TDO could help them was the faith that created the Theosophic particles to emanate from TDO's newly created singularity. As this faith was not connected to any existing Pantheon (who knows if any of the other Pantheons had the option to adopt this newly created being as one of their own but passed on it), the Quiddity chose a new color according to QCD's advanced color theory.

[Pampukin]

Awesome comic, I just wanted to add that I still hear Chris Hemsworth whon thor talks, and that we should go en massé to his instagram to ask him for a story saying "there's a new color in the crayon box".

[Rrmcklin]

My personal theory is that ascended mortals aren't literally the same individual. They're the collective ideas about the individual, given god form. Like, perhaps they get all of the memories of the mortal, or perhaps not. But either way, they might as well think they're the same person, but they're really just powered/made of thoughts. It would explain what happens to their mortal "colors" anyway.

Doesn't really mesh with Davlin considering it to be his oath made during life to consult the dwarven council, and something he still needs to abide by.

And considering mortals have souls, you'd think he'd know if he was literally Davlin or just an apparition molded after him while the real thing went off to Valhalla or wherever.

[Scowling Dragon]

After having Read Start of Darkness only its very easy to understand Redcloak. But then you read Good Deeds Go Unpunished and you get the flipside of the flipside if you may.

Redcloak may be redeemed, but at the moment he continues to still exist as a ball of calcified anger. He is revenge personified.
Whether or not he believes the Plan will further Goblinkind hes still very much so doing it in the most obstinate "Sunk Cost Fallacy" way ever.
Life had continued to grow and differences had begun to decline, he simply didn't look into them when he didn't want too even if it was staring him right in the face.

[rbetieh]

So these last two strips have caused me to create a new head-cannon.

One of those countless previous worlds was an Anime world. Unfortunately, it's greatest hero - Son Goku was defeated by the Snarl because he could only activate one Quiddity (SSJ forms, SSJ Yellow, SSG Red, SSB Blue) at a time.... He did give it a good try though.

[factotum]

Doesn't really mesh with Davlin considering it to be his oath made during life to consult the dwarven council, and something he still needs to abide by.

And considering mortals have souls, you'd think he'd know if he was literally Davlin or just an apparition molded after him while the real thing went off to Valhalla or wherever.

There's no reason why *both* ideas might not be partially true. The ascended god's divine body (and thus their quiddity) are made up of the hopes and dreams of their worshippers, while their original soul is drawn in to the new form and assumes control.

[Wysper]

I love the call back to crayons.

[abadguy]

Reading this for so long, Rich never fails to amaze with the depth of his story-telling. One of the best lore chapters so far!

[Keltest]

Doesn't really mesh with Davlin considering it to be his oath made during life to consult the dwarven council, and something he still needs to abide by.

And considering mortals have souls, you'd think he'd know if he was literally Davlin or just an apparition molded after him while the real thing went off to Valhalla or wherever.

If anything, I think it makes it work better. Dvalin is empowered by however many dwarves felt he was the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed, a paragon of dwarfdom. To that end of course an empowered Dvalin would consider his word that important, its literally one of the ideas defining him.

[SlashDash]

The Dark One was literally created by the sheer anger of, like, all of the goblins on the earth, not even belief. Question is; since the dark one was a person, and therefore made up of Red, Blue and Yellow, what makes him purple?

And why is he different than Dvalin, who is presumably also a mortal ascending into godhood.

My guess is that the fact that the Dark One isn't a member of any pantheon is what makes him different.

Maybe gods begin "colorless" in a sense and develop their own "style" as they go along.

Dvalin was accepted by the North Pantheon and so he turned into their color by association.

While the Dark One was left alone so he came up with his own style.


Kind of like a person growing in a city will see the fighting academy and become a fighter while someone growing in the wild tarazan style will develop his own thing and become a barbarian or something.


I also think everyone trying to figure out addition or subtraction of colors are over thinking it.

It's a visual medium, they needed something visual to make the point and colors are just the easiest.

They needed more than 3 anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

Redcloak's been motivated by the Plan and the Crimson Mantle since his first chronological appearance in Start of Darkness...and followed the Dark One since before then. How reliably can we really untangle the desires of Redcloak/the Dark One/the Crimson Mantle?

How detectable a difference is there between "Redcloak serves himself by following a Plan that serves goblin people" vs "Redcloak serves goblin people by following a Plan that serves himself"?

Also because actions speak a heck of a lot louder than words when there aren't words.

Being the chosen one of a deity is no picnic.

We get a glimpse of Redcloak having a moment of self awareness here; panels 12 to the end. He is aware that he's been doing/seeing something wrong, though we still see that he is a servant to The Plan. The Plan has been his raison d'etre for a very long time. The fact that he can admit that he's been wrong opens a crack in the wall ... maybe there is a way forward towards the much discussed redemption. IMO, it's a hard sell, given his track record. When one is a True Believer, changing a point of view is hard with a DC in the 30's.

For example, in this case we see that he has very much an "ends justifies the means" mindset. Rather than heal the goblins/hobgoblins, he wants them raised as undead since it furthers the plan more effectively. But there is still some self awareness ... "we're the bad guys, remember?"

[chrestomancy]

Apologies if someone in the 10ish pages I've skipped of this thread already suggested this, but....

I'm very interested in the motivations of the fiends at this point. We've got a better understanding of the underlying metaphysic than before, but that's one of the key unknowns.

It's been a plot (and game) point that souls go to their respective afterlives. In this theory, the evil gods get souls of evil folks, so if goblinoids are majority evil, most of them would end up there, right? But maybe that still requires something like faith, devotion and belief. Maybe there's an end for souls that don't get in anywhere else, or for those who've made bargains. It could be that the fiends get the un-aligned souls for their own fuel.

If that's the case, it could be that the existence of the Dark One has significantly reduced the rate of souls going to the "ventral" planes (as Varsuvius so eloquently described them). That might mean they want to remove the Dark One from the pantheons as soon as possible. They might or might not know about the previous worlds. It may be that all ascended-mortals are lost when a world is destroyed.

Just wild speculation of course. All I can be certain of is The Giant's ability to surprise and delight with every new plot twist. I'm now just hoping Thor doesn't run out of time, with Durkon resurrected before he's finished!

[Ward.]

Has anyone explained why the dwarven god is human sized/ proportioned yet though?

[Peelee]

Has anyone explained why the dwarven god is human sized/ proportioned yet though?

Because the gods created the dwarves, not the other way around? Do you also want an explanation for why the Twelve Gods of the Azurites look nothing like the Azurites?

[factotum]

Because the gods created the dwarves, not the other way around? Do you also want an explanation for why the Twelve Gods of the Azurites look nothing like the Azurites?

In addition, the one Dwarven god who we know was once a dwarf himself (Dvalin) does have dwarf-like proportions:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In addition, the one Dwarven god who we know was once a dwarf himself (Dvalin) does have dwarf-like proportions:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

That comic does not show the proportions of Dvalin. The minor gods don't have avatars, they merely speak through their high priests. We know, for example, that Thrym is an ice giant, but his high priest is merely a half-giant.

Edit: also, I had forgotten Sigrun's reasons for voting yes. That reinforces my headcanon that Loki's approach of waiting for the last minute would NOT save the souls of the followers.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

That comic does not show the proportions of Dvalin. The minor gods don't have avatars, they merely speak through their high priests. We know, for example, that Thrym is an ice giant, but his high priest is merely a half-giant.

Edit: also, I had forgotten Sigrun's reasons for voting yes. That reinforces my headcanon that Loki's approach of waiting for the last minute would NOT save the souls of the followers.

Grey Wolf

I don't think that's a headcanon, im pretty sure that's just canon. If they were capable of reliably jumping on this thing and doing what they need to do before the Snarl gets out, there wouldn't be a reason to preemptively destroy the world.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think that's a headcanon, im pretty sure that's just canon. If they were capable of reliably jumping on this thing and doing what they need to do before the Snarl gets out, there wouldn't be a reason to preemptively destroy the world.

Agreed, but nevertheless a number of individuals informed me that by their own assumptions, my logic was incorrect, and I'm done trying to talk with them, so for now, headcanon it is.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Edit: also, I had forgotten Sigrun's reasons for voting yes. That reinforces my headcanon that Loki's approach of waiting for the last minute would NOT save the souls of the followers.

Grey Wolf

I assumed that was already canon, since if it we assume the opposite, Hel gets what she wants no matter what at world's end.

[Fyraltari]

Has anyone explained why the dwarven god is human sized/ proportioned yet though?

That's not Thor's size. This is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I assumed that was already canon, since if it we assume the opposite, Hel gets what she wants no matter what at world's end.

Again, agreed, but devil's advocating, she's clearly not the patient type and waiting chances the mortals actually finding a way to extend the world another couple thousand years while she continues to "waste away" (ETA: or, you know, permanently, as will likely be the case, but I'm sure that doesn't enter her calculations).

ETA2: Also, one could argue that, once her plan is out in the open, that would give the other gods time to squirrel away enough power to contest her. Part of her plan is the fact no other god saw it coming.

Grey Wolf

[renovator]

Thor and the MiTD share the similarity that they act as fools, but when they can't be spied on they act differently. So who are they worried about spying on them?
My out there theory is that Thor is tired of the Gods having no skin in the game,, and wants to a do a Dark Crystal maneuver to combine all the panthenons with the snarl and an ascended Xykon ("the white one") and Banjo. The Gods are not unhappy with the status quo of a new world with new worshippers every few thousand years , so.they would be against any risky plan