Why are Miko's parents dead?

[Snails]

I will agree that, technically, the difference between Miko's and Tsukiko's treatments is simply the ludicrous unfairness of the D&D rules, that give clerics much more leeway despite them being much more powerful.

The idea of clerics having specific Codes depending on their god/religion has been around since forever. They were just not explicitly written down in the PHB, so players preferred to handwave this away, when they could get away with it. The 3e PHB says:

Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

The Paladin has already been hewn quite closely to a very specific mythic tradition, so it was easier to spell out. In fact, the Paladin tradition is basically an Arthurian knight (more or less), and it was expected to be hard to maintain. Whether that makes sense in a game like D&D is not clear.

There is no logical reason to assume that the "code of conduct" for a random cleric is easier than the Paladin Code. Again, it is just players handwaving "oh, no rules for CG clerics", "no, rules for LN cleric", etc, because it was convenient. It is right there in the RAW that gods usually have a code of conduct, and this is "forgotten".

[Peelee]

The idea of clerics having specific Codes depending on their god/religion has been around since forever. They were just not explicitly written down in the PHB, so players preferred to handwave this away, when they could get away with it. The 3e PHB says:



The Paladin has already been hewn quite closely to a very specific mythic tradition, so it was easier to spell out. In fact, the Paladin tradition is basically an Arthurian knight (more or less), and it was expected to be hard to maintain. Whether that makes sense in a game like D&D is not clear.

There is no logical reason to assume that the "code of conduct" for a random cleric is easier than the Paladin Code. Again, it is just players handwaving "oh, no rules for CG clerics", "no, rules for LN cleric", etc, because it was convenient. It is right there in the RAW that gods usually have a code of conduct, and this is "forgotten".

Unless you can point to the gods' codes of conduct in the books, I think you mean RAI, not RAW.

[TidePriestess]

Both Belkar and Roy use inappropriate language, but you never see either of them actually sneering at women for being women, or suggesting that men make better adventurers, or anything like that.

I believe that's setting the bar below the floor.

And if you were a character in OotS then you could make the decision to not associate with him and to prefer Miko instead. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that the Order made a different decision.

It's logically impossible to invalidate a fact. But I can and will claim it was a very poor decision.

[Liquor Box]

It's logically impossible to invalidate a fact. But I can and will claim it was a very poor decision.

You can claim it, but that doesn't make it so.

The decision on whose company one might prefer is subjective. I don't think either your preference for Miko, or the Order's preference for Belkar can be said to be a poor decision. That is just whose company you/they would prefer.

My own preference would be for Belkar, because I would prefer to hear comments that I find unsavory over being beaten and imprisoned.

[B. Dandelion]

There's nothing wrong with stories where good vs evil is more nuanced, or even when the bad guys are the protagonists (eg Breaking Bad, the Sopranos or Sons of Anarchy). It may be that the people who think Miko did not fit into her role as an antagonist simply dislike the type of story where it is not simple good vs evil.

Would you really argue there's anything particularly "nuanced" about Belkar's take on evil? At that point in the story? He's there to be the funny comedic sociopath who delivers punch lines and stabbings, not to raise complicated questions about the nature of evil or its justifications.

Personally neither Belkar nor Miko crack my top ten favorite characters. It's highly believable that the Order wouldn't like Miko. But for them to consciously choose to keep siding with Belkar mainly to spite her is... meh.

[Liquor Box]

Would you really argue there's anything particularly "nuanced" about Belkar's take on evil? At that point in the story? He's there to be the funny comedic sociopath who delivers punch lines and stabbings, not to raise complicated questions about the nature of evil or its justifications.

Personally neither Belkar nor Miko crack my top ten favorite characters. It's highly believable that the Order wouldn't like Miko. But for them to consciously choose to keep siding with Belkar mainly to spite her is... meh.

I don't deny that he's unambiguously evil at that point. So he would fall into my 'bad guys can be protagonists' comment, like Tony Soprano or Walter White.

In terms of popularity, in a forum poll, Belmar made the top four.

You are right, it has to be believable that the Order would continue to side with Belmar. There's an 'in story' explanation that you might buy, or you might not. Personally, I don't find it at all unbelievable.

[B. Dandelion]

I don't deny that he's unambiguously evil at that point. So he would fall into my 'bad guys can be protagonists' comment, like Tony Soprano or Walter White.

In terms of popularity, in a forum poll, Belmar made the top four.

You are right, it has to be believable that the Order would continue to side with Belmar. There's an 'in story' explanation that you might buy, or you might not. Personally, I don't find it at all unbelievable.

Those guys are villain protagonists with nuance and complicated motives. Belkar is not. He's as subtle and nuanced a villain protagonist as... um... say the title character of Invader Zim, perhaps. If people had a problem with Miko's handling, an excess of subtlety in the story surrounding her might not have been the major issue, is what I'm saying.

As I recall, in the character tournament Belkar narrowly beat out Vaarsuvius and even more narrowly lost to Redcloak, so plainly this is a forum that likes characters of shades of black. But who you find entertaining as a character and who it would be realistic for you to hang out with is not the same. It's irrelevant how popular he is online. In universe he's an unrepentant murderer who kills for fun and manifestly could not be controlled by the party. The Order chose to stick by him in a dramatic moment that was something of a false binary: if they rejected Miko it meant by extension embracing Belkar. But it would have made more sense to ditch them both.

[Liquor Box]

Those guys are villain protagonists with nuance and complicated motives. Belkar is not. He's as subtle and nuanced a villain protagonist as... um... say the title character of Invader Zim, perhaps. If people had a problem with Miko's handling, an excess of subtlety in the story surrounding her might not have been the major issue, is what I'm saying.

I'm not sure I follow you on the relationship between whether Belkar is nuanced, and whether Miko is portrayed well.

Personally I'm happy with the portrayal of Both, because I don't mind antagonists who are 'good', and like characters who I find funny.

As I recall, in the character tournament Belkar narrowly beat out Vaarsuvius and even more narrowly lost to Redcloak, so plainly this is a forum that likes characters of shades of black. But who you find entertaining as a character and who it would be realistic for you to hang out with is not the same. It's irrelevant how popular he is online. In universe he's an unrepentant murderer who kills for fun and manifestly could not be controlled by the party. The Order chose to stick by him in a dramatic moment that was something of a false binary: if they rejected Miko it meant by extension embracing Belkar. But it would have made more sense to ditch them both.

Sure, being entertaining as a character is probably more important.

I agree it wasn't a choice between Miko and Belkar for the Order. Of course they would dislike Miko in the circumstances.

As for Belkar, I can understand why you feel they ought to have ditched him as well. There's been plenty of justification in comic for reasons to keep him, which you may or may not find compelling. Happy to discuss it with you, but the thread is about Miko, and as you point out a decision to reject or keep one has no bearing on the other.

[hamishspence]

Personally neither Belkar nor Miko crack my top ten favorite characters. It's highly believable that the Order wouldn't like Miko. But for them to consciously choose to keep siding with Belkar mainly to spite her is... meh.

They only "chose between Belkar and Miko" once - and that was during the fight in the throne room.

That said, at least one paladin, who is not an Order member, chooses to protect Belkar from Miko later - Hinjo.

[D.One]

Don't know if it has appeared in this thread about Miko's parents (and not really in the mood for searching if it was mentioned here or not ), but one of her parents is called Eyko.

[Joerg]

In terms of popularity, in a forum poll, Belmar made the top four.

This is a minor point, but I personally interpreted that poll not as "which character would you like to associate with", but as "which character do you like to read about in the story". (I didn't vote for Belkar anyway.)

[KorvinStarmast]

This is a minor point, but I personally interpreted that poll not as "which character would you like to associate with", but as "which character do you like to read about in the story". (I didn't vote for Belkar anyway.)

Yeah. In the first few strips I saw Belkar as Rich's tool for making fun of a lot of tools who play, or who played, D&D: antisocial, rude, munchkin, murderhobos who occasionally say something funny or sarcastic that other people laugh at. Rich parlayed that into a one dimensional joke machine, though some of the jokes were at his expense.
The decision to not kill him off, but rather to try and get character development off of top dead center about 600 strips into the story (that's just over half way through the published strips so far) was an interesting one. I am glad that he took it on as a challenge. The easy way would have been "kill Belkar off" and either not replace him, or replace him with a less a-holey sixth character.

[Liquor Box]

This is a minor point, but I personally interpreted that poll not as "which character would you like to associate with", but as "which character do you like to read about in the story". (I didn't vote for Belkar anyway.)

Yes, I interpreted it that way as well. I agree it doesn't suggest most people would want to associate with Belkar, but I thought it was relevant to whether Belkar is a well written character (as a protagonist, the audience liking you seems very important).

[georgie_leech]

Yes, I interpreted it that way as well. I agree it doesn't suggest most people would want to associate with Belkar, but I thought it was relevant to whether Belkar is a well written character (as a protagonist, the audience liking you seems very important).

Not necessarily. No one in Great Gatsby is all that likable, but they're still well-written.

[D.One]

So what? Now Belkar was the one who killed Miko's parents?

[KorvinStarmast]

So what? Now Belkar was the one who killed Miko's parents?

It was a slow news day.

[D.One]

It was a slow news day.

Judging by:

1) the fact the the thread is about Miko's parents...
2) Shojo was discussed here...
3) Tsukiko was discussed here...
4) Belkar was discussed here...
5) One of Miko's parents was called Eyko...

I therefore conclude that Shojo had an affair years ago with a woman named Eyko, who had twin girls, Miko and Tsukiko (do you see a name pattern?), but them Belkar came and killed Eyko, and, being Belkar, burnt the body and thrown the ashes in some volcano to prevent ressurection. The girls were separated and sent, Miko to a monastery and Tsukiko to a temple, and they never knew of each other again until the day Miko arrested Tsukiko for unnatural acts of wizardry.

[KorvinStarmast]

Judging by:

1) the fact the the thread is about Miko's parents...
2) Shojo was discussed here...
3) Tsukiko was discussed here...
4) Belkar was discussed here...
5) One of Miko's parents was called Eyko...

I therefore conclude that Shojo had an affair years ago with a woman named Eyko, who had twin girls, Miko and Tsukiko (do you see a name pattern?), but them Belkar came and killed Eyko, and, being Belkar, burnt the body and thrown the ashes in some volcano to prevent ressurection. The girls were separated and sent, Miko to a monastery and Tsukiko to a temple, and they never knew of each other again until the day Miko arrested Tsukiko for unnatural acts of wizardry.

Not sure if Belkar is old enough to have done that in the time frame posed. Everything else makes perfect sense.

[hamishspence]

Not sure if Belkar is old enough to have done that in the time frame posed.

I don't think The Giant has ever told us Belkar's age.

Miko was 28 when she died. 13 when she was taken out of the monastery by Shojo. An unknown age when her parents died and she was first sent to the monastery.

Using the ageing tables:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

a 1st level Halfling Ranger would normally have a minimum age of 23.

Lets say for the moment that Belkar is still too young to qualify as Middle-aged (so, 49 at most - maybe 48 when Miko died since nearly a year's gone by). Miko would have been born when Belkar was 20 - the equivalent of a human 15 year old.



Having Miko's parents die when she was a few years old, rather than an infant, makes the timeline compatible.

[D.One]

Not sure if Belkar is old enough to have done that in the time frame posed. Everything else makes perfect sense.

Acording to SRD, halflings' starting age for rangers (moderately complex class) is 20+3d6 years. At the start of the series, he had been ranger for 3 years already, so, he could be 41 by the start of DCF. If we assume Miko is 28 (as per Class and Level Geekery thread) when she appears, he would be 13 years older then her. I can see a 10 year old Belkar, without Roy or Mr Scruffy's influence, doing some pretty nasty stuff...

[georgie_leech]

Judging by:

1) the fact the the thread is about Miko's parents...
2) Shojo was discussed here...
3) Tsukiko was discussed here...
4) Belkar was discussed here...
5) One of Miko's parents was called Eyko...

I therefore conclude that Shojo had an affair years ago with a woman named Eyko, who had twin girls, Miko and Tsukiko (do you see a name pattern?), but them Belkar came and killed Eyko, and, being Belkar, burnt the body and thrown the ashes in some volcano to prevent ressurection. The girls were separated and sent, Miko to a monastery and Tsukiko to a temple, and they never knew of each other again until the day Miko arrested Tsukiko for unnatural acts of wizardry.

Not deep enough, We need O-chul in there somewhere.

[Peelee]

Judging by:

1) the fact the the thread is about Miko's parents...
2) Shojo was discussed here...
3) Tsukiko was discussed here...
4) Belkar was discussed here...
5) One of Miko's parents was called Eyko...

I therefore conclude that Shojo had an affair years ago with a woman named Eyko, who had twin girls, Miko and Tsukiko (do you see a name pattern?), but them Belkar came and killed Eyko, and, being Belkar, burnt the body and thrown the ashes in some volcano to prevent ressurection. The girls were separated and sent, Miko to a monastery and Tsukiko to a temple, and they never knew of each other again until the day Miko arrested Tsukiko for unnatural acts of wizardry.

I don't think The Giant has ever told us Belkar's age.

Miko was 28 when she died. 13 when she was taken out of the monastery by Shojo. An unknown age when her parents died and she was first sent to the monastery.

Using the ageing tables:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

a 1st level Halfling Ranger would normally have a minimum age of 23.

Lets say for the moment that Belkar is still too young to qualify as Middle-aged (so, 49 at most - maybe 48 when Miko died since nearly a year's gone by). Miko would have been born when Belkar was 20 - the equivalent of a human 15 year old.



Having Miko's parents die when she was a few years old, rather than an infant, makes the timeline compatible.

I would like to purchase a ticket to get on this train.

[hamishspence]

Acording to SRD, halflings' starting age for rangers (moderately complex class) is 20+3d6 years. At the start of the series, he had been ranger for 3 years already, so, he could be 41 by the start of DCF.

Out-of-universe, that's a reference to 3.0 having existed for 3 years before being revised as 3.5.

[Resileaf]

Out-of-universe, that's a reference to 3.0 having existed for 3 years before being revised as 3.5.

748 seems to imply that Belkar at least remembers Basic D&D. Any age rules back then to make things even more of a mess?

[D.One]

748 seems to imply that Belkar at least remembers Basic D&D. Any age rules back then to make things even more of a mess?

If you put Tolkien into the mess, we have halflings that only reach adulthood at 33.

[hamishspence]

If you put Tolkien into the mess, we have halflings that only reach adulthood at 33.

33 is the "age of responsibility". Maybe it's like humans only being allowed some things at 18, or even 21. D&D adventurers are considered adults at 15.

So, 33 for hobbits, could be the equivalent of 21 for humans.

[D.One]

33 is the "age of responsibility". Maybe it's like humans only being allowed some things at 18, or even 21. D&D adventurers are considered adults at 15.

So, 33 for hobbits, could be the equivalent of 21 for humans.

Complementing, AD&D 2nd edition had halflings starting adventuring at 20+3d4 years. Couldn't find any reference to starting age in Classic D&D.

[Lacuna Caster]

At that point, I liked Miko more than I cared for Elan. Elan is a dangerous personality type in my first career (Navy, 20+ years): a likeable idiot who is engaged in a dangerous profession. People like that get other people killed in real life. My reaction to Elan is informed by my own life experience. It took a long time (in terms of reading strips of OoTS) for me to not react to Elan's presence in a strip with a sigh of resignation.

I can't say I ever served in the military, but what always struck me at the time was simply the everything-Miko-does-is-serious-business, everything-other-people-do-is-harmless-nonsense double-standard. I completely agree that early-strip Elan should not be deliberately inserting himself in adventuring parties where he's likely to get himself and others killed and the others should have made this perfectly clear... if the proceedings as a whole were being taken seriously. Conversely, I'd be happy to shrug off his antics as inconsequential comedy hijinks... if a similar courtesy had been extended to certain paladins. But they weren't.

As compared to Durkon (before he met Thor recently?) Shojo apparently gets little to no input from the Gods, and he has even more responsibilities than she.

Tier 1 versus not Tier 1.

Oh, the Gods should absolutely be communicating with Shojo (at least if they're capable of communicating with non-casters at all.) But Odin did, in fact, communicate with his own high priest, and Durkon is not the high priest of Thor (or at least wasn't at the time.)

In any case, the total failure to warn anyone in the Sapphire Guard about the impending hobgoblin army does tend to stick out, given the Guard explicitly had their own receptive prophetic seer waiting back at the castle and that Xykon/RC had been prepping to march for weeks. Not ever talking to Miko or Shojo specifically is just the icing on the cake.

All else aside, I have to agree that the double standard applied to paladins versus clerics is pretty ridiculous. It becomes doubly so in OotS, where paladins directly serve gods, rather than the ideals of Law and Good. The 3E and earlier design of the paladin is an absolute minefield and I think Miko and the countless threads about her, including this one, illustrate it well. Just probably not in the manner the Giant has intended.

There is no logical reason to assume that the "code of conduct" for a random cleric is easier than the Paladin Code. Again, it is just players handwaving "oh, no rules for CG clerics", "no, rules for LN cleric", etc, because it was convenient. It is right there in the RAW that gods usually have a code of conduct, and this is "forgotten".

Thank you, yes.

[mjasghar]

The corrupt priest and the upstanding holy warrior is also a staple of fantasy fiction (parallels to the corrupt politician and ‘honest’ soldier). The problem is how that works in a world where the priest can be shown to be corrupt by inability to cast. Meanwhile the paladin is inspired by a more extreme idealistic myth cycle.
So as with much of role playing we have a disconnect between concept and mechanics and gaming the system

[Lacuna Caster]

For the enormous () inconsistencies cast here, I really expect the far superior story The Gang of the Branch to be made some day. There, the gods will be absolutely fair in their taking and giving of powers, no one will consider Shogo good or think he somehow adopted Niko, and Hulga Icehorn will be recognized as the true and pure hero she is...

...Don't tempt me.

I was astonished to learn fairly recently that Michiko Nishiwaki was an actual Japanese martial artist/stunt actress/action diva who lost her father at an early age, prompting her to become a champion bodybuilder and enter the hong kong film industry. Though usually typecast as an icy villainess, she did have a movie role using psychic powers to help the police hunt down a throat-slitting serial killer. True fact.

Judging by:

1) the fact the the thread is about Miko's parents...
2) Shojo was discussed here...
3) Tsukiko was discussed here...
4) Belkar was discussed here...
5) One of Miko's parents was called Eyko...

I therefore conclude that Shojo had an affair years ago with a woman named Eyko, who had twin girls, Miko and Tsukiko (do you see a name pattern?), but them Belkar came and killed Eyko, and, being Belkar, burnt the body and thrown the ashes in some volcano to prevent ressurection. The girls were separated and sent, Miko to a monastery and Tsukiko to a temple, and they never knew of each other again until the day Miko arrested Tsukiko for unnatural acts of wizardry.

I did have some thoughts in this area, though I'd probably tweak those substantially now.