A Practical Guide to Evil

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

*salutes Grey Pilgrim* a true hero. truer than most. done more than anyone asked. may you find peace wherever you go.

as for the fallout of this.....don't assume it'll be bad just as yet. remember: its not just the Grey Pilgrim dying but HOW he dies that matters. getting killed by some evil villain like Catherine is one thing, thats grounds for revenge. sacrificing his life so that others don't have to, spins the story in a whole different way.

no one has any reason to be mad, because this was a willing sacrifice. now the humans may suspect that the Black Queen schemed this so that both would be dead or whatever, but the Angels know things they don't and will be able to confirm that she had nothing to do with them dying and was willing to take the fall instead (even if she was planning on cheating out of it later). and you'd have the Rogue Sorcerer backing up her story.

and if Grey Pilgrim himself saying that war won't come isn't enough to assure you, consider that for all of Levant's talk of avenging him that he is an old man. he was going to die someday and since he is a hero, that death probably would not be a quiet one, and there is the fact that if he is so well-loved then they wouldn't just treat him as any other hero, but someone with teachings to follow. after all, his entire thing was Mercy. he goes around teaching and trying to uphold mercy as best he can for his entire life, to the point where is loved by everyone on his side, and your going to tell me that no one is going to take that as an example to learn from? that no one would go "hey maybe we should honor Grey Pilgrim's memory and stop fighting instead" like not even a faction of people upholding the ideals he held himself to? if he truly has the kind of impact the books says he does, then he will have influence, even after he's gone.

Hanno of course can go either way, but its pretty late into this book, we already got the climax so its probably going to land heads, but the Tyrant is the problem, something about a trial, which Catherine will have to intervene in because Hanno is pretty much the only guy left that can help with the Dead King. and any trial....is going to involve Hierarch's insanity.

so something Tyrant and Hierarch is either going to be the final thing or the start of the next book, with Catherine having to work with Hanno probably. cause I can't see Catherine having these accords won without maintaining them and the relationships involved. like Hanno probably isn't the problem himself and Levant will probably have a bit of cultural argument over whether to avenge him or follow his example but probably come down on the side of following his example, but Tyrants the kind of guy who can still be dangerous even when he is telling the truth, because y'know how frustrating truth twisters can be.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

Yeah i agree. The important thing about why Tariq could allow himself to die, is that he did have a understudy waiting in the wing to take over.
Even if it is going to make the war against the Dead King a lot harder when he isnt around.
Whats most important is what sort of deal Tyrant struck that allowed himself to slither free.
But the vengeance inflicted on him for getting saint killed were hilarious.

All the same. We should have seen Gray dying soon after he became an actual ally.
In part i think, simply because his ressurection ability were to broken on a support hero.
It would make it much harder putting tension into the conflict.

[halfeye]

Spoiler

Show

The thing about lying being impossible for the Tyrant is that that utterly wrecks his schemes. A liar can get by with telling the truth if he can convince people he's lying, but if as in this case he utterly cannot tell lies and people know that, then it's very very difficult to con anybody. I'm sure he will try.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

Assuming anyone outside the room learns he can't tell lies. Plus, don't forget how much damage you can do simply by telling incomplete truths or slanted truths - he's not mandated to only speak truth, he just can't speak lies. Someone as smart as the Tyrant will find a way to abuse that and be annoying still.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

Show

I'm more worried/terrified on how the Choir of Mercy will ensure that no blood is shed due to the Pilgrim's sacrifice.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

The Tyrant will still be an annoying (censored), but this does cripple him as he cant weave truth and lies.
Likely around what it means losing an arm to a soldier.

As for choir of mercy. Concern? honestly?
All they have to do is make their priests confirm that RS's story is true.
The Gray Pilgrim sacrificed himself to safe all 3 armies from the Dead King.
he is the greatest! hurray!

And that should pacify all the fanatics.
Or direct their ire towards the Dead King.

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler

Show

The perception of 'you got the Pilgrim killed' is still going to be a significant diplomatic issue for Catherine, plus there's all the future difficulties she's going to have without him vouching for the Accords and trying to bring people in line on the other side of the table. Anybody magically or spiritually sensitive will probably be able to feel the Pilgrim's will and intent in the new transition realm they're making, tho - not only his crown but his life given to build it? The crown made with the 'Pilgrim's Star' and the whole act sealed with a sacrifice at the rising of the dawn? This thing has Pilgrim's fingerprints all over it. Wonder if the entry toll is still going to be blood, after this? Sve Noc might not know any other way to make it, but that seems maybe an unnecessarily dark sacrifice considering all the Light and heroic aspects that are going into it now.. on the other hand, it is death and self-sacrifice, so having somebody spill a few drops of blood so others may pass in safety is still on theme.

Bet Saint's death is going to earn a few obligatory strongly-worded letters, but very few of the political leadership will actually want to make much more of it than that. Quite a few of them will probably be privately relieved that she's gone - she was a proponent of 'burn it to the ground and we'll make something better of the ashes', which was threatening to torch quite a few thrones on the way.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

It should be a cold day in hell if Cat cant spin this PR disaster to favor her.
She has the testimony of a hero to explain how Pilgrim (the obvious leader in the eyes of team Above),
sacrificed his life to safe them all (a story they -want- to believe in, as it makes Pilgrim look good).

Saint meanwhile, will likely also only be mourned by fellow heroes and the common men and women she saved from getting eaten by ratlings.
Though.. its likely also those she cared about anyway.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

Show

As for choir of mercy. Concern? honestly?
All they have to do is make their priests confirm that RS's story is true.
The Gray Pilgrim sacrificed himself to safe all 3 armies from the Dead King.
he is the greatest! hurray!

And that should pacify all the fanatics.
Or direct their ire towards the Dead King.

Spoiler

Show

And it sure would be nice if it were that simple. But somehow I don't think that Above would go for such a minimalist approach.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

I imagine Hanno is going to have his Choir judge Cat and find out that she really doesn't want to hurt Good, and from there is willing to continue the alliance against the Dead King.

I'm still wondering if the Dead King is the final boss or if they move to fighting the Bard directly at some point. The DK isn't actually that important except as the Sauron type threat; he doesn't represent the battle between Above and Below that Cat is trying to get rid of, and his motive in attacking everyone else is still unknown.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

I'm more worried/terrified on how the Choir of Mercy will ensure that no blood is shed due to the Pilgrim's sacrifice.

Spoiler

Show

....you think the Choir of Mercy is going to mindwash all of Levant into being peaceful or something?



that.....might be more plausible that I would like. or something worse, depending on their definition of "bloodshed".

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler

Show

... and his motive in attacking everyone else is still unknown.

Spoiler

Show

I kind of suspect he does it just to keep up appearances and appease his patrons Below/the stories that drive his Name. So far it doesn't seem like he's really all that interested in territorial expansion, and if he wanted more living space for Serenity he could carve it out of the Hells where there's no story-based opposition stopping him. But in order to maintain power as the Dead King, he sometimes has to unleash a ravening horde of undead abominations upon the living. It's just what Dead Kings do - it's a necessary distraction in order for him to keep up his abilities. It's why he's so cautious to do it in ways that offer affordable or temporary losses, why he doesn't just go attacking but had to be specifically invited and treated to do so. It creates stories where the Dead King loses by being driven back, by being 'forced' to retreat and rebuild for another century, but almost never actually being harmed or sacrificing anything that isn't ultimately replaceable.

Which, really, means I think you're right, and we still don't know what the Dead King actually wants, except that it's at least partially in opposition to whatever Wandering Bard is playing for.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: 51:Twilight

Show

Hot.

Damn.

Catherine.

Yes.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: 51:Twilight

Show

Hot.

Damn.

Catherine.

Yes.

Spoiler

Show

agreed.

Just wow. this might actually be the best chapter of this series ever written.

the moment is sad and mournful. Catherine contemplates drawing this sword of King fairfax- but nope, she doesn't draw it, that would just make her a hero doing it for vengeance and whatnot. that would not end well- she'd be going down the Sword of Saints path. and we all know where that lead. bullet dodged!

then she convinces a Choir to let her steal an aspect and resurrect Grey Pilgrim. though wouldn't put it past the Choir and Grey Pilgrim to foresee her doing this and be like "just as planned." and catherine is like:
"wait you KNEW I'D DO THIS!? GODSDAMMIT! DID YOU KNOW HOW MUCH YOU WORRIED ME THERE!? AGH! COME ON, WE GOT ACCORDS TO PUT IN PLACE JERK!"
and Grey Pilgrim laughing softly at her reaction.

though this is the third time she cheated death, so I don't think she can pull it off anymore. fourth time means bad things.

[McNum]

Spoiler: Twilight

Show

Someone needs to have a word with Cat about that whole stealing resurrections thing. She has a problem.

So to reframe it, the Arch-heretic of the East persuaded the actual Choir of Mercy, as in the angels were right there, to let her steal an aspect from their champion to resurrect him. I don't think there's a Story for that. I mean there is now, but Cat is trailblazing here.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah i do think Wow covers this chapter.

Spoiler

Show

I mean.. i got tears in my eyes the second time i read about Tariq's sacrifice.

And then the ending. (censored)! i had not seen that comming.
Even though it was partly foreshadowed. In Cat's new ability to steal aspects from the dead.
As well as Tariq's ability to ressurect everyone once if they had died a violent death.

Though i think i partly predicted this outcome, in that its Pray who meant Tariq had to go.
Now i instead think its clear he will have lost an aspect.

Else.. did also love the bit about the Orphan standing virgil over his body.
And Cat's comment about how they did love him, as much as their kind were able to.
Its hardly surprising Cat could talk them into standing aside. They wanted to break that rule but couldnt do it themselves.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

And what might be even more important, they trusted a villain enough to stand aside and let her do it. Nothing compelled Cat to use Forgive on the Pilgrim after stealing it except her own convictions and honesty. The Choir saw that and allowed her to act for them. It's something outside of any Story the world has likely seen before, that sort of cooperation between the powers of Above and an agent of Below.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

And what might be even more important, they trusted a villain enough to stand aside and let her do it. Nothing compelled Cat to use Forgive on the Pilgrim after stealing it except her own convictions and honesty. The Choir saw that and allowed her to act for them. It's something outside of any Story the world has likely seen before, that sort of cooperation between the powers of Above and an agent of Below.

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, Catherine just kind of did something more unprecedented than anything she has done before. like I don't think people cared about the Faerie courts enough to care about her resolving that, but I can imagine more than a few people reacting to the news with disbelief or outright thinking that she can't have possibly done that honestly and think she did some sort of trick or something to make some mind controlled Grey Pilgrim to say what she wants to happen.

like I wouldn't be surprised if even if she succeeds that some minority bit of heroes will still be suspicious of her try to find some plot they think she is up to. like the biggest factor thats against her in this situation is how private this whole thing is, with only peoples word about whether or not this or that happened to tell everyone else, and only her, Grey Pilgrim and the Ophanim were there to see the specifics of this last part. so it all comes down to what Grey Pilgrim will tell everyone else, because he is what the Ophanim speak through, and who everyone holds in high regard.

like sure there is that star going out, but no one knows what that means. that could be taken in a lot of different ways that wouldn't be good. so the issue probably if I were come at it from an outside perspective is determining whether its the real Grey Pilgrim speaking. while from an inside perspective, the issue is whether to tell the full truth of what happened, yet at the same time other people left before you and will probably get there before everyone else to tell the tale, so you can't just step around or cover up the fact that Grey Pilgrim did in fact die.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, Catherine just kind of did something more unprecedented than anything she has done before. like I don't think people cared about the Faerie courts enough to care about her resolving that, but I can imagine more than a few people reacting to the news with disbelief or outright thinking that she can't have possibly done that honestly and think she did some sort of trick or something to make some mind controlled Grey Pilgrim to say what she wants to happen.

like I wouldn't be surprised if even if she succeeds that some minority bit of heroes will still be suspicious of her try to find some plot they think she is up to. like the biggest factor thats against her in this situation is how private this whole thing is, with only peoples word about whether or not this or that happened to tell everyone else, and only her, Grey Pilgrim and the Ophanim were there to see the specifics of this last part. so it all comes down to what Grey Pilgrim will tell everyone else, because he is what the Ophanim speak through, and who everyone holds in high regard.

like sure there is that star going out, but no one knows what that means. that could be taken in a lot of different ways that wouldn't be good. so the issue probably if I were come at it from an outside perspective is determining whether its the real Grey Pilgrim speaking. while from an inside perspective, the issue is whether to tell the full truth of what happened, yet at the same time other people left before you and will probably get there before everyone else to tell the tale, so you can't just step around or cover up the fact that Grey Pilgrim did in fact die.

Spoiler

Show

I'm not even thinking about the PR issues here, though you're likely right on a lot of that. I'm looking at what this could potentially do to the world itself; when your universe runs on Narrativium, upsetting the applecart with a new Story like this could be devastating to the metaphysical status quo if it's allowed to 'stick'.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

I'm not even thinking about the PR issues here, though you're likely right on a lot of that. I'm looking at what this could potentially do to the world itself; when your universe runs on Narrativium, upsetting the applecart with a new Story like this could be devastating to the metaphysical status quo if it's allowed to 'stick'.

Spoiler

Show

that is indeed a possibility as well.

but how though?

Arcadia is more bound by stories than the current world, so we have an example to look at that to see what could happen, if anything Arcadia should be MORE affected by a shenanigan like this. what is Arcadia like now? it doesn't seem to be particularly bad, though it hasn't gotten much focus in any way. the hunt did just leave to do their own thing while discarding the crown for them to fight over, so they seem to be doing fine.

might change WHAT stories are available though. as well as open the flood gates for more ambiguously aligned people to exist at all. as well as stories where the powers above and below start dealing with both sides of the mortal fence- imagine Angels and Demons both talking to villains and heroes like the classic shoulder angel/devil thing but more serious. and for things like an angel to make a deal with a villain to accomplish good ends outside their rules, or a classic heroes making a deal with the devil for their own desires and being tempting away from heroism, or a hero being able to make use of hellish powers for what they consider a good cause. things like that. it blurs the lines, so if Catherine can make a deal like this for the greater good, why can't a hero make a deal with demons for their own selfish desires?

because narrativium due to the nature of foils and binary conflicts and dichotomies, will naturally default to an equilibrium. whatever Catherine becomes, narrativium has to produce an equal and opposite reaction to her, so her doing this probably just means narrativium going "okay so if thats a thing that can be done by villains now, its only fair if that same basic story or variants can be told in reverse by a hero, there."

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

that is indeed a possibility as well.

but how though?

Arcadia is more bound by stories than the current world, so we have an example to look at that to see what could happen, if anything Arcadia should be MORE affected by a shenanigan like this. what is Arcadia like now? it doesn't seem to be particularly bad, though it hasn't gotten much focus in any way. the hunt did just leave to do their own thing while discarding the crown for them to fight over, so they seem to be doing fine.

might change WHAT stories are available though. as well as open the flood gates for more ambiguously aligned people to exist at all. as well as stories where the powers above and below start dealing with both sides of the mortal fence- imagine Angels and Demons both talking to villains and heroes like the classic shoulder angel/devil thing but more serious. and for things like an angel to make a deal with a villain to accomplish good ends outside their rules, or a classic heroes making a deal with the devil for their own desires and being tempting away from heroism, or a hero being able to make use of hellish powers for what they consider a good cause. things like that. it blurs the lines, so if Catherine can make a deal like this for the greater good, why can't a hero make a deal with demons for their own selfish desires?

because narrativium due to the nature of foils and binary conflicts and dichotomies, will naturally default to an equilibrium. whatever Catherine becomes, narrativium has to produce an equal and opposite reaction to her, so her doing this probably just means narrativium going "okay so if thats a thing that can be done by villains now, its only fair if that same basic story or variants can be told in reverse by a hero, there."

Spoiler

Show

Exactly. And that is essentially the apocalypse as far as the current Story goes, which is why it's part of her defining goal and why the Bard opposes her. The universe exists the way it does so Above and Below can settle their eons-long grudge match/chess game using mortals as disposable playing pieces, introducing more ambiguity will ruin the crux of 'whose philosophy is superior' and possible render it meaningless. Bard is the referee enforcing tournament-standard play. Neshamah drags out the clock between his moves as long as he can, towards a yet-unknown goal. Catherine wants to transform the chess board into Chinese Checkers. Hierarch wants to flip the table over.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

Of course, an often overlooked part is how risky it is to transform the game to far.
Cat seemingly mainly wants to shove all the pawns out of the way so its suddenly mostly a game between rocks and bishops.
Something in part done by limiting the involvement of named in politics. But that still leaves the game between Above and Beneath running.

Meanwhile, on flipping the board, or transforming it into something else.
Well.. if your computer start to lock up or bug, then you generally format it, right?
How pleasant would it be for the inhabitants if the world is reformated?

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

Exactly. And that is essentially the apocalypse as far as the current Story goes, which is why it's part of her defining goal and why the Bard opposes her. The universe exists the way it does so Above and Below can settle their eons-long grudge match/chess game using mortals as disposable playing pieces, introducing more ambiguity will ruin the crux of 'whose philosophy is superior' and possible render it meaningless. Bard is the referee enforcing tournament-standard play. Neshamah drags out the clock between his moves as long as he can, towards a yet-unknown goal. Catherine wants to transform the chess board into Chinese Checkers. Hierarch wants to flip the table over.

Spoiler

Show

Well. if thats true....then Catherine can hardly be the one to blame now can she? she is the one who made the offer, but its the Ophanim who would know better about this sort of thing. She doesn't know the consequences but the all-seeing, all-knowing Choir most definitely knows the rules of the game by now and the consequences of an action that would break them like that. they're the ones that are infinitely more powerful and knowledgeable, so the fault rests on them.

so either the Ophanim were so willingly short-sighted and so taken by their love for a single mortal man, that they'd throw away everything and cause some kind of vauge narrative apocalypse upon the world and cause more suffering which they are supposed to stop- highly freaking unlikely given that the entire deal of angels is the Greater Good in general- Oooooor....

they foresaw this and know that moving aside like doesn't cause a narrative apocalypse, just a narrative shift. I fail to see how people stop being the pawns of one side or the other just because the demons and the angels can access both heroes and villains now. that just means more people to persuade and more flexible ways to use them as pawns to prove which philosophy is right.

as for the other players here...hm. Neshamah and Bard are opposed so I doubt his goals are anything in keeping with status quo, he probably wants to do his own table flip. but Bard is kind of weird: she knows this suffering will never end if she keeps this going forever, so why does she do it? she doesn't seem to like it, yet she keeps going and going and is seemingly more vital and powerful than any other Named shown, at least story-wise. she is this Intercessor which acts as referee for both even though she is supposedly a hero? so she is neutral but not? what?
and why would she WANT to keep doing this? you don't keep doing this for thousands of years without a purpose to drive you even after you become completely cynical and drinking yourself to death repeatedly.
so by what your implying, that the Bard thinks she is preventing even greater suffering, possibly the end of everything, by making sure the game keeps getting played the way its "meant" to by making sure the same thing keeps happening over and over again, keeping the world going and living but not resolving the bet ever, because she keeps making counterbalances that stop one side or the other from gaining too much of a lead to truly start winning and resolve the bet, because once the bet is done, you put away the pieces of the playing board and that means the end of the world for everyone. or a restart of the game.

and that Catherine just made a move that invalidates the entire game?

maybe. but then again this isn't Arcadia. the defining attribute the mortal world has that the Fae don't, is the human element, actual choice and things that matter beyond stories and tropes. there is a possibility that doing this sort of thing is less catastrophic than it would be in Arcadia, due to the human element. how many heroes are going to accept a demons deal even if they can be made now? not much I'd bet. just because something can happen now, doesn't mean its likely. remember, narrativium defaults to an equilibrium, not a chain reaction. I'd say that we'll get a single hero who makes a deal with a demon for a selfish reason to contrast Catherine as an antagonist. one demonic-deal hero for one angel-deal villain, thats how this world works.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

The Choirs aren't all-knowing, though. That's in fact a large part of their shtick, and why I've previously interpreted them as almost Lovecraftian in that they embody their chosen Virtue to the exclusion of being barely able to comprehend anything else. They need Heroes not just to be physical agents, but to interpret and balance with other motives and virtues. Tariq is empowered by Mercy, but he can still understand the desire for redemption and he can pass judgement where his patrons can't because those things are outside their focus. IIRC, it's specifically called out in the Big Battle when Tariq uses Dawn that he asks his patrons what to do and they're silent because he has to be the one making the choice, they're not allowed to choose his path for him.

But I'm not suggesting that this will cause the gods to hit the reset button on the world, that's Khaine's theory. I think this is the start of a narrative shift, but one so drastic that by the end of it the narrative will be changed entirely and be all but unrecognizable compared to where it started. The Gods (Above or Below) might not even get a say in the matter, depending on the 'rules' they set down. If all Catherine does it make it easier for gritty antiheroes to do gritty antiheroic stuff, she doesn't make any meaningful progress towards ending the back-and-forth slaughter. There needs to be permanent, meaningful alterations to how the world works if her journey and her sacrifices have any value in the end. To make an analogy, I'm proposing this is the first stone that starts an avalanche, whereas you appear to see one stone rolling downhill means someone else throws a stone uphill and the equilibrium stays intact.

As for the Bard, I've gotten the impression she is an unwilling participant to some degree. Assuming 'She' is a person and all and not just a sapient, self-aware Name as has been theorized, her role is to keep the Story going at all costs, to maintain the board until one side 'wins' even if that takes eternity to happen.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

Ah, but who says her success depends on this choice at all? the Liesse Accords are far more important, because, its a narrative blind spot. narrativium generally does not cover the particulars of a treaty, because bureaucracy and legislation are inherently boring unless a particular part of is brought up as a detail important to a specific story. its why Hakram and the Scribe are "vital" yet we never actually see them do most of his or her job.

so what if the anti-hero thing happens, that is just a stepping stone that keeps the world stable and now when she puts in the Liesse accords, thats when she wins, because then a Hero or Villain can be held responsible by these accords for calling upon outside forces, no matter which one it is. and since these accords force all Named who sign it to not rule, that puts people like Malicia and the Tyrant into bit of a spot. because while any villain can follow the accords, rulers like them cannot and still retain their power, while also making no heroic rulers rise up.

thats when the stories really start to change, because there will be no more named kings and queens. and thats when all the stories REALLY start changing, because while its perfectly possible for the game as it is now to continue with some more flexible dealing, it will definitely be unrecognizable when there are no Malicias or Tyrants or anything to rule at all- this was just a deed she did to get to the real change.

because I'm just looking at it logically: narrativium as we have seen, seeks equilibrium:
Dead King = Bard
Squire = Lone Swordsman
Callow = Praes
Black Knight = Grey Pilgrim
Saint of Swords = Malicia

every evil ruler has their good hero to overthrow them, every good ruler has their evil conqueror to defend against. but when there is no rulers? there is no need for a Named to overthrow them in turn. its why Named like lone swordsman, saint of swords, black knight, squire, tyrant and so on keep popping up, because its expected they become rulers, conquerors, generals. but what happens when these CAN'T show up? what happens when politics itself is changed so that its considered a breach of the rules to go along with these stories as expected? we all know what narrativium thinks of breaking the rules-its just not allowed.

meaning new heroes and villains must show up in their place, with different motivations than just ruling this or that, or overthrowing someone for this or that. I say that this current change of someone making a deal with an entity on the other side of the fence isn't that significant....because it isn't. sure its unprecedented, but it has to have a tangible cause and effect for it to truly change things other "vague avalanche of narrative things" but the Liesse Accords changing it so that Named can't rule? is a much more tangible, much more logical way for a kind of avalanche to occur, because this is just an action that anyone can do for any reason, addition that put on top of the current system, just makes the current system a little more unpredictable.

but subtracting the rulers from the equation? thats the jackpot. because suddenly, all those stories about becoming a good or evil king don't make sense anymore, and neither Above or Below can influence politics directly. THAT is what will massively change things not this.

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler

Show

but subtracting the rulers from the equation? thats the jackpot. because suddenly, all those stories about becoming a good or evil king don't make sense anymore, and neither Above or Below can influence politics directly. THAT is what will massively change things not this.

Spoiler

Show

Doesn't this all just mean Below actually wins - and was right - since the argument was about whether the gods should rule their creations or "guide to greater things...?"

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

Doesn't this all just mean Below actually wins - and was right - since the argument was about whether the gods should rule their creations or "guide to greater things...?"

Spoiler

Show

Ah, but if Below can't interfere, can they guide them to greater things? no. no they can't. while with Above....shadow rulers behind the throne exist. the Grey Pilgrim was never an official ruler after all, so this doesn't stop Angels and Demons from making a bunch of Adviser Names to try and rule from behind the scenes anyways. no official political power but...you'd be a fool to disregard a Name's input entirely if you were a mortal king.

[Ravens_cry]

I really loved the description of

Spoiler

Show

the Court of Twilight. It's a place I'd like to visit, find some respite for my own tattered soul. Also, as always, I love how Biblical PGtE's angels are. They are inhuman and eldritch to their core. They are, in their own way, just as terrifying as anything the Gods Below can cook up, if not more so. And I love it. Also, I have a theory that at some point in the almost certain war against the Dead King, Dread Empress Triumphant (may she never return) will . . . return.

[halfeye]

Spoiler

Show

As for the Bard, I've gotten the impression she is an unwilling participant to some degree. Assuming 'She' is a person and all and not just a sapient, self-aware Name as has been theorized, her role is to keep the Story going at all costs, to maintain the board until one side 'wins' even if that takes eternity to happen.

Spoiler

Show

I'm not sure that a sapient self willed name wouldn't be a person. It would be a very strange one, but if all the named were just random puppets for the name, which I seem to remember might have been implied to be true in the case of the wandering Bard, then the name might it seems to me be a sort of person, and it's goal might be personal survival, which would it seems to me be kind of horrific.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

I'm not sure that a sapient self willed name wouldn't be a person. It would be a very strange one, but if all the named were just random puppets for the name, which I seem to remember might have been implied to be true in the case of the wandering Bard, then the name might it seems to me be a sort of person, and it's goal might be personal survival, which would it seems to me be kind of horrific.

Spoiler

Show

True. I should have said human. Inexcusably anthrocentric of me, really...