OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

[Talion]

Well, as theological revelations go, I guess that's refreshingly direct.

[KorvinStarmast]

Didn't at least one of those (or the combo of all three) have a 6'1" height requirement in 1e? Durkon might fall . . . short.

Yeah, it does in deed, DMG p 168. The 3.5 version dropped that requirement, but it does spell out the hammer as "large" so I am not sure if that causes durkon problems. (Isn't he medium sized?)

[Peelee]

Wait. Does anyone remember if Banjo the Puppet God has ever shown a divine aura, and if so what color it was?

Because a good storyteller, when using an old, old reference in a plot critical way, will often lampshade it before the big reveal to jog your memory. Y'all, I think Banjo may be a god with a new novel color that will help seal Snarl in place of The Dark One.

Banjo has no quiddity. Even if he did, he'd be a ridiculously weak god. Even if he wasn't, Elan would need to be a cleric. Even if Elan was, he'd need to be able to cast a ninth level spell.

Bevause a good storyteller will introduce many different ways of "Banjo being a god isn't going to happen" to try to convince people that a puppet won't solve the plot.

"jet fuel can't melt steel beams"

This is my new favorite theory.

[Fish]

To be clear, Rich never said a puppet won’t solve the plot and save the day. Roy did. There’s a difference. Roy says whatever Rich writes, including the times when Roy is wrong.

That’s not proof of anything. But neither is Roy’s opinion proof of anything.

[Peelee]

To be clear, Rich never said a puppet won’t solve the plot and save the day. Roy did. There’s a difference. Roy says whatever Rich writes, including the times when Roy is wrong.

That’s not proof of anything. But neither is Roy’s opinion proof of anything.

I don't recall anyone using Roy as evidence. I used a bunch of other stuff as evidence, but since none of that was addressed and something I never mentioned was, I assume you aren't responding to me.

[woweedd]

To be clear, Rich never said a puppet won’t solve the plot and save the day. Roy did. There’s a difference. Roy says whatever Rich writes, including the times when Roy is wrong.

That’s not proof of anything. But neither is Roy’s opinion proof of anything.

How about "he's a puppet?"

[Breccia]

"A little secret your people forgot a few generations back…"

Right. So, something of use against Hel's minions, that the dwarves knew, but haven't used in as a weapon for a while. Hmm. Some good options there.
1) Gunpowder?
2) Alcohol is an amazing disinfectant, and so is honey?
3) A bonus to saving throws against rod, staff, wand and spell?
4) Animated trees would just curb-stomp vampires?
5) They, um, speak Kobold?

I'll work on it.

[drazen]

Given how many things have literal names in OOTS like Passage Pass, when Thor says "concrete physical aid," maybe the secret is how to make concrete. Dwarves are all into the masonry, after all. Not sure how he'd use it against vampires unless he's flooding the council chamber with it, though.

Though my less silly side agrees: some sort of "thunder shield."

[Dragolord]

And suddenly, Odin wanting to deify a puppet makes so much more sense.

[Jasdoif]

The 3.5 version dropped that requirement, but it does spell out the hammer as "large" so I am not sure if that causes durkon problems. (Isn't he medium sized?)

Durkon is indeed Medium-sized...but warhammers are one-handed weapons; so a Medium-sized creature can wield a Large warhammer as a two-handed weapon with a -2 penalty on attack rolls, to account for the size difference.

[danielxcutter]

And I guess this is the final proof that Durkon will be interacting with the material plane once more, because Elan would go full Kratos if this foreshadowing was shut down.

OMG this is pure gold. Can I sig that?

[Kish]

Didn't at least one of those (or the combo of all three) have a 6'1" height requirement in 1e?

That sounds...truly, monumentally stupid. "Humans only" is at least comprehensible. "Now you're going to be penalized because you didn't arbitrarily decide you were playing a really tall human" is not.

[Coolio Wolfus]

Wonder if a shrunken Thor would 'accidentally' drop his hammer near Durkon when 'drunk'...

Or was there ever a spell to summon Thor's Hammer?

[M.A.D]

Thank you Mr. Giant!

So Durkon is getting a power-up, that's nice :) And I assume it's no coincident that his way of getting it is similar to Roy's, in that Roy got taught a powerful but forgotten move from grandfather Greenhilt, whom he adored as a child and whose footsteps he aspired to follow. In Durkon's case, it's his revered god Thor who's granting him the (presumably) powerful but forgotten something. I wonder if it's ever going to come to the rest of the Order's turn? As far as upgrades go, Haley's gotten that new bow years ago, plus an dagger a few months recently. Elan's barely started optimizing his build while recently getting a new sword, and Belkar got a new dagger. None of them seem as cool as Roy's sword though.

I'm not sure if there's enough room left for 3 separate adventures to get all their stuffs upgraded, but maybe Banjo could grant Elan something cool next lol

[Snails]

Given how many things have literal names in OOTS like Passage Pass, when Thor says "concrete physical aid," maybe the secret is how to make concrete. Dwarves are all into the masonry, after all. Not sure how he'd use it against vampires unless he's flooding the council chamber with it, though.

Though my less silly side agrees: some sort of "thunder shield."

I like how you think.

The ideal answer is something that is genuinely associated with Dwarves, but does not exist in 3e. Like something in 1e or oD&D or a literary source like LotR.

[Fyraltari]

I like how you think.

The ideal answer is something that is genuinely associated with Dwarves, but does not exist in 3e. Like something in 1e or oD&D or a literary source like LotR.

Now, I'm trying to figure ou how moon-runes or dragon-fireproof masks coud help.

[Rollin]

Well, there are a number of possibilities I can think of for what the secret could be:
...
2. A secret mechanism that opens up the council chamber to the sky. Very effective against sunlight-sensitive vampires, though I don't know why the Dwarves would have such a thing.
...

If it was Thor who told the early dwarves about the wager with Hel, it was likely at a site associated with the worship of Thor, which might then have a port for viewing the sky, just as the present temple has. The council chamber is a good candidate; certainly the council’s receiving an unbreakable oath from the first king, Dvalin, suggests they might have been front and center when the culture of honor was adopted at Thor’s prompting. Add that the chamber is in the center of a town named Firmament, and then consider what the firmament is supposed to be, a solid object separating heaven from earth, and it begins to seem plausible.

Is Durkon’s quest one of rescuing a civilization cut off from its roots... in the sky?

[Fish]

I don't recall anyone using Roy as evidence. I used a bunch of other stuff as evidence, but since none of that was addressed and something I never mentioned was, I assume you aren't responding to me.

I am responding to you and others. If you can point me to a quote where Rich said there would be no banjotheosis, let’s see it. Every other justification is just the opinion of some character within the strip.

As to your point, no, a “good storyteller” doesn’t have to explicitly foreclose on every possible future resolution to the plot. (There was no explicit mention in Lord of the Rings, for instance, about Éowyn or Faramir not dropping the One Ring into the Crack of Doom.) A storyteller may, however, engage in misdirection to make a certain outcome seem unlikely in order to surprise the reader (eg, again with Éowyn, we were told that “no man alive” could kill the Lord of the Nazgûl, a clear use of misdirection on a technicality).

[Fyraltari]

I am responding to you and others. If you can point me to a quote where Rich said there would be no banjotheosis, let’s see it. Every other justification is just the opinion of some character within the strip.

As to your point, no, a “good storyteller” doesn’t have to explicitly foreclose on every possible future resolution to the plot. (There was no explicit mention in Lord of the Rings, for instance, about Éowyn or Faramir not dropping the One Ring into the Crack of Doom.)

Faramir explicitly refused the Ring.

But this is a weird example. The Lord of the Rings was never episodic. It is intended to be read in a single book so there is little speculation to be had.

[Peelee]

Now, I'm trying to figure ou how moon-runes or dragon-fireproof masks coud help.

It's clearly the Arkenstone.

I am responding to you and others. If you can point me to a quote where Rich said there would be no banjotheosis, let’s see it. Every other justification is just the opinion of some character within the strip.

I'll do that as soon as you point me to anyone using Roy as a justification. Until then, stop beating a strawman.

[Fyraltari]

It's clearly the Arkenstone.

You know, if it really is Maedhros' Silmaril they could just throw it at the Exaargh, should tke it out of commission for a while.

[nolongeralurker]

Haven't read the thread, apologies if this already came up...

Okay, so Durkon now knows that his exile has been lifted. I'd forgotten Minrah knew about that.

Since Rubyrock made that info sound like such an important Checkhov's gun, I originally thought (as many others did, at least if I recall correctly) that it would help convert Durkula. That didn't happen, obviously. So then I thought, and still do, that the info will come into play at the Council vote somehow. Like, Durkon will be able to intervene at the meeting somehow in a way that he officially wouldn't be allowed to if he was still officially exiled. I was thinking Roy might dramatically reveal that Durkon wasn't exiled at the meeting when one of the vamped elders questioned his right to be there, or something, but I guess that won't happen now (or I guess it could, but it wouldn't be a surprise for Durkon). But come to think of it Roy probably would've just told Durkon soon after he's rezzed, anyway (and still will if Durkon doesn't mention it first, since he doesn't know Minrah already told him).

So yeah, I think Durkon not being exiled will be relevant at the Council meeting somehow. Or at least, it'll be important for some reason; there'll be too much wasted foreshadowing if it isn't. This strip doesn't change my opinion of that (actually it makes it stronger since Durkon finding out wasn't a super dramatic moment), but I thought I'd mention all this now since this strip mentioned the exile being lifted.

[Fyraltari]

Haven't read the thread, apologies if this already came up...

Okay, so Durkon now knows that his exile has been lifted. I'd forgotten Minrah knew about that.

Since Rubyrock made that info sound like such an important Checkhov's gun, I originally thought (as many others did, at least if I recall correctly) that it would help convert Durkula. That didn't happen, obviously. So then I thought, and still do, that the info will come into play at the Council vote somehow. Like, Durkon will be able to intervene at the meeting somehow in a way that he officially wouldn't be allowed to if he was still officially exiled. I was thinking Roy might dramatically reveal that Durkon wasn't exiled at the meeting when one of the vamped elders questioned his right to be there, or something, but I guess that won't happen now (or I guess it could, but it wouldn't be a surprise for Durkon). But come to think of it Roy probably would've just told Durkon soon after he's rezzed, anyway (and still will if Durkon doesn't mention it first, since he doesn't know Minrah already told him).

So yeah, I think Durkon not being exiled will be relevant at the Council meeting somehow. Or at least, it'll be important for some reason; there'll be too much wasted foreshadowing if it isn't. This strip doesn't change my opinion of that (actually it makes it stronger since Durkon finding out wasn't a super dramatic moment), but I thought I'd mention all this now since this strip mentioned the exile being lifted.

Durkon wasn't technically exiled, he was just too lawful to disobey a direct order. Everything about Hurak's actions surrounding that (framing it as a "mission", swearing Blackore to secrecy keeping it from Rubyrock and the records) pretty much screams that it was completely illegal for him to exile Durkon, so I'd be surprised if it turned out some law would have prevented Durkon from doing anything.

Also, the vampires plan on Dominating the Elders not vamping them. They can't vote if they're dead.

[Rogan]

Haven't read the thread, apologies if this already came up...

Okay, so Durkon now knows that his exile has been lifted. I'd forgotten Minrah knew about that.

Since Rubyrock made that info sound like such an important Checkhov's gun, I originally thought (as many others did, at least if I recall correctly) that it would help convert Durkula. That didn't happen, obviously. So then I thought, and still do, that the info will come into play at the Council vote somehow. Like, Durkon will be able to intervene at the meeting somehow in a way that he officially wouldn't be allowed to if he was still officially exiled. I was thinking Roy might dramatically reveal that Durkon wasn't exiled at the meeting when one of the vamped elders questioned his right to be there, or something, but I guess that won't happen now (or I guess it could, but it wouldn't be a surprise for Durkon). But come to think of it Roy probably would've just told Durkon soon after he's rezzed, anyway (and still will if Durkon doesn't mention it first, since he doesn't know Minrah already told him).

So yeah, I think Durkon not being exiled will be relevant at the Council meeting somehow. Or at least, it'll be important for some reason; there'll be too much wasted foreshadowing if it isn't. This strip doesn't change my opinion of that (actually it makes it stronger since Durkon finding out wasn't a super dramatic moment), but I thought I'd mention all this now since this strip mentioned the exile being lifted.

It might be important for Durkon to accept a ressurection in dwarven Land. He is Lawfull after all, and he was told never to come back. He could not stop the Vampire in his body, but he could refuse to let his soul go back.

[Rrmcklin]

It might be important for Durkon to accept a ressurection in dwarven Land. He is Lawfull after all, and he was told never to come back. He could not stop the Vampire in his body, but he could refuse to let his soul go back.

His happiness is simply because now he knows that when this is all over he can go home instead of wondering around human lands until he dies.

Durkon is Lawful, sometimes to the point of stupidity, but there is no way he'd refuse a resurrection knowing all that is at stakes, just because of where he is. Especially now that he's on a direct holy mission from his god. Nothing about how he's been talking has indicated he'd go "Well, I'm in Dwarven Lands, so...."

[Borris]

Yeah, thinking about it, it very well could be Mjolnir...

And just think. We have V slinging spells, Haley shooting arrows, Row throwing his sword with his psychic powers, Durkon throwin his hammer and calling it back like Thor, Elan being Elan... and poor Belkar behind in the dust complaining why everyone else gets cool ranged attacks but him. As always.

Doesn't Belkar get a racial bonus to throwing things such as daggers?

[factotum]

Doesn't Belkar get a racial bonus to throwing things such as daggers?

Yes, Halflings get +1 to thrown weapons and slings in 3.5.

[Lombard]

So Durkon was already the happiest he has ever been, and now Thor's revealing secret forgotten dwarflore? #peakdurkon

[Kish]

Belkar has been throwing his daggers all comic.

[Personification]

You know, if it really is Maedhros' Silmaril they could just throw it at the Exaargh, should tke it out of commission for a while.

I haven't read LotR or the Silmarillion in forever. Is it confirmed that the Arkenstone was a silmaril?