OOTS #1147 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

He also apparently has a vest of resistance now. So that shifts the odds a couple more notches his way.

[hamishspence]

Rape refers to when someone is forced to have sex (whether physically, by blackmail, etc). Being misleading, failing to disclose relevant information, etc etc, we can argue about the morality of that, but it's still not rape. Because you still had the ability to decide to engage in the act itself. The consequences of coming out of sex that you later realised you shouldn't have done are not comparable to the consequences of being forced to have sex.

"Rape by deception" (masquerading as someone who you'd consent to intimacy with) is a thing.

[The_Weirdo]

"Rape by deception" (masquerading as someone who you'd consent to intimacy with) is a thing.

It also implies intent. The simple fact that she outright told him all when asked something tangentially related means she wasn't intending to deceive anyone. And, again, given how dwarven culture works, the people that claim she's a rapist just want to revictimize her. They'd like her to have been forced to never have sex with another dwarf again, on account of being technically married at crossbow point to that moron.

[woweedd]

It also implies intent. The simple fact that she outright told him all when asked something tangentially related means she wasn't intending to deceive anyone. And, again, given how dwarven culture works, the people that claim she's a rapist just want to revictimize her. They'd like her to have been forced to never have sex with another dwarf again, on account of being technically married at crossbow point to that moron.

Making a lot of assumptions on your opponents' motivations there...

[Kish]

Making a lot of assumptions on your opponents' motivations there...

When someone's expressed position is that mass murder is A-OK, he can't keep the moral high ground, even in his own mind, without also getting to write his opponents' lines.

[Larre Gannd]

When someone's expressed position is that mass murder is A-OK, he can't keep the moral high ground, even in his own mind, without also getting to write his opponents' lines.

Murderers can have feelings too. She only wanted to murder those who wronged her(Not that that’s like, good, or anything), so I think it’s reasonable that she wasn’t writing Durkon’s “lines”

[Kish]

Pretty sure The_Weirdo's pronouns are he/him.

...actually, I said "he" and "his" in the post you're responding to.

[The Aboleth]

Panel 4 of Comic #79, to me, reads as Hilgya making an assumption about Durkon that turns out to be wrong, rather than an actual attempt at deceiving him in order to gain consent. She says (emphasis mine), "Our people don't travel among the humans very often. So when I saw you, I knew we had everything in common."

While I agree she shouldn't have assumed that Durkon wouldn't care about Dwarven customs or laws (like marriage) simply because he was another Dwarf out in human lands, that certainly doesn't make her a rapist (in my opinion). Durkon didn't exactly ask too many questions about her personal life, either, so I'm hard-pressed to fault one over the other in that scenario.

[Peelee]

Panel 4 of Comic #79, to me, reads as Hilgya making an assumption about Durkon that turns out to be wrong, rather than an actual attempt at deceiving him in order to gain consent. She says (emphasis mine), "Our people don't travel among the humans very often. So when I saw you, I knew we had everything in common."

She joined a group whose entire identity was based around being opposites of the Order of the Stick. Willful self-delusion isn't a terribly effective defense here, I'd say.

[Keltest]

She joined a group whose entire identity was based around being opposites of the Order of the Stick. Willful self-delusion isn't a terribly effective defense here, I'd say.

As Roy points out later, evil opposites tend to have far more in common than they do different.

[Peelee]

As Roy points out later, evil opposites tend to have far more in common than they do different.

Roy is not the definitive voice on what constitutes evil opposites. I disagreed with that when he said it, I disagree with it now.

ETA: Besides which, even assuming Roy is correct, the Guild lineup was specifically designed to be similar-but-different in the most offending way to the Order. So it still doesn't hold up well.

[The_Weirdo]

As Roy points out later, evil opposites tend to have far more in common than they do different.

Hey, Keltest, wanna make some remarks along with me on the whole "teeth clenched teamwork" we're having right now?

[Keltest]

Roy is not the definitive voice on what constitutes evil opposites. I disagreed with that when he said it, I disagree with it now.

Well then Hilgya has no reason to believe the opposites thing is meaningful outside of Nale's mind, and were back to square one.

Hey, Keltest, wanna make some remarks along with me on the whole "teeth clenched teamwork" we're having right now?

No, I think I shall do my best to pretend that you are not participating here at all.

[Peelee]

Well then Hilgya has no reason to believe the opposites thing is meaningful outside of Nale's mind, and were back to square one.

See edit. My bad on not including it to begin with.

[Keltest]

See edit. My bad on not including it to begin with.

This gets into some incredibly bizarre meta logic here, but since to the best of my recollection, the meeting in Dorukan's Dungeon is the first time the LG was aware of the existence of the Order, so while in the real world they were written to be that way, from their perspective, the opposites thing was a bizarre coincidence that Nale took and ran with.

[The_Weirdo]

No, I think I shall do my best to pretend that you are not participating here at all.

Unfortunately for you, those two lines we wrote sounded enough like that precise kind of banter.

[Dion]

Willful self-delusion isn't a terribly effective defense here, I'd say.

It’s almost impossible to know the difference between an honest mistake vs. willful self delusion, especially when we’re talking about someone we’ve had very limited exposure to.

But I’d argue that Durkon and Higya are opposites in one obvious way: Durkon is extraordinarily careful and conscientious, and Higya is both careless and unaware. Her deception can be interpreted as careless instead intentional, and I prefer to think of her that way.

Either way, I don’t think their original encounter was non-consensual, except in some very narrow definitions of consent that I don’t believe can be applied meaningfully or consistently to most people’s lives.

[Peelee]

This gets into some incredibly bizarre meta logic here, but since to the best of my recollection, the meeting in Dorukan's Dungeon is the first time the LG was aware of the existence of the Order, so while in the real world they were written to be that way, from their perspective, the opposites thing was a bizarre coincidence that Nale took and ran with.

Nale was hired to kill the Order before they met. Nale also invested a lot of time and energy into this "evil opposites" theme before he went recruiting new members for its second iteration.

[LadyEowyn]

"Rape by deception" (masquerading as someone who you'd consent to intimacy with) is a thing.

That really only seems valid in reference to masquerading as a specific person (for example, Elaine masquerading as Guenever to sleep with Lancelot; or, in the execrable movie Overboard, a man falsely convincing an amnesiac woman that he is her husband).

If we redefine "lying to someone you're sleeping with" as rape, then we've probably redefined the majority of the population as rapists.

And even that is irrelevant to the case of Hilgya, because she did not lie. Durkon did not ask if she was married. He assumed she was not (since having an affair is deeply against Dwarven culture); it's likely that she assumed that, since he was outside the dwarven lands, he was someone like her who disliked dwarven culture and had rebelled against it, and who therefore would not care if she was married. (EDIT: The quote provided by The Aboleth confirms this is the case.)

[Keltest]

Nale was hired to kill the Order before they met. Nale also invested a lot of time and energy into this "evil opposites" theme before he went recruiting new members for its second iteration.

We also see that his original Linear Guild was with him back before he broke with Tarquin on the Western Continent, up to and including the otherwise disposable kobold. Like I said, a bizarre meta mess.

[Fyraltari]

We also see that his original Linear Guild was with him back before he broke with Tarquin on the Western Continent, up to and including the otherwise disposable kobold. Like I said, a bizarre meta mess.

I choose to believe that was Yokyok who died during the fight. Also Z isn't there weirdly enough.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Overwrought"?

Yes, that is exactly what I meant and how it came off then. Feedback for you.

Your ability to convey the difference between quote-quotes and scare quotes is,

I'll dumb it down for you. Using "safe" like that, in scare quotes, was to put into question the idea of being safe in combat. That is the general way that scare quotes get used.
The thought behind that usage was along the lines of "safe" in combat is a lot like "virginity" in a whorehouse.

Now do you get it, or do you need further explanation?

[The MunchKING]

Anyone can roll a 1.

Do saves auto fail on a 1? Because I didn't remember that being the case, and if they don't that would mean Hilgya has a shockingly low Wisdom for a Cleric.

[Kish]

Yes, they do.

[zimmerwald1915]

Do saves auto fail on a 1? Because I didn't remember that being the case, and if they don't that would mean Hilgya has a shockingly low Wisdom for a Cleric.

As Kish said, they do. Anything that isn't a skill check fails on a 1.

[woweedd]

Yes, they do.

Yeah. I mean, even I do that, and i'm generally not a fan of Fumbles rules. That said, i'm fairly certain Hilgya has a Wisdom penalty, asd does every character in that case, except Roy and Minrah. V was presumably saved by being a Wizard, a class that has an excellent Wil save, such that even a low-average Wisdom score wouldn't penalize it overmuch.

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah. I mean, even I do that, and i'm generally not a fan of Fumbles rules. That said, i'm fairly certain Hilgya has a Wisdom penalty, asd does every character in that case, except Roy and Minrah. V was presumably saved by being a Wizard, a class that has an excellent Wil save, such that even a low-average Wisdom score wouldn't penalize it overmuch.

At the risk of causing some people here to argue that Hilgya somehow casts her Cleric spells off, oh, I don't know, Constitution, I wish to point out that, if she can cast Cleric Spells past level 0 at all, that means she has more than 10 for Wisdom. And that, if she can cast Flame Strike, that means her Wisdom must be at least 15.

[The MunchKING]

Yeah. I mean, even I do that, and i'm generally not a fan of Fumbles rules. That said, i'm fairly certain Hilgya has a Wisdom penalty, asd does every character in that case, except Roy and Minrah. V was presumably saved by being a Wizard, a class that has an excellent Wil save, such that even a low-average Wisdom score wouldn't penalize it overmuch.

She needs a decent Wisdom to cast Cleric spells.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, that is exactly what I meant and how it came off then. Feedback for you. I'll dumb it down for you.

1) Asserting something does not make it true. My arguments weren't overwrought them because "she can simply leave" is neither complex nor elaborate.
2) Deciding to attack me or my arguments by using ad hominems - such as your sly suggestion I need things dumbed down or suggesting as argument is "too complicated" is a very poor argumentative technique. It is literally an admission on your part that you have nothing to counter it and are reduced to insults like a 4 year old child.
3) Since you knew all this already, having told you as much on previous occasions, it is now clear that you do not intend to argue in good faith, presumably because you have nothing to argue.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

such as your sly suggestion I need things dumbed down or suggesting as argument is "too complicated"

That was sly?