OOTS #1147 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

I am... pro-being-fair-to-Miko. I think she's a multifaceted character who got a worse rap than she deserved, but I don't think everything she did was optimal or justified. I would say we know less about Azure City more generally, but I suspect something similar might be said about it's culture and legal system.

But... yeah, Miko is kinda my thing. What did you think the avatar was about? Was that not a clue?

I only saw the attractive Asian lady in the nice blue background hammering at a sword.

Ah well. Still I won't argue with you. You gave me the video of Alien at a carousel with Predator.

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[Potatopeelerkin]

I am... pro-being-fair-to-Miko. I think she's a multifaceted character who got a worse rap than she deserved, but I don't think everything she did was optimal or justified. I would say we know less about Azure City more generally, but I suspect something similar might be said about it's culture and legal system.

But... yeah, Miko is kinda my thing. What did you think the avatar was about? Was that not a clue?

Speaking of which, do you have a larger version of that image? And if so, may I see it?

I can agree with her getting a worse rap than she deserved. I think it's just the... specifics of that, that we disagree on.

[The_Weirdo]

Speaking of which, do you have a larger version of that image? And if so, may I see it?

Me too, if you please.

[Kish]

Because you're not bringing anything new to the discussion, Kish. It would serve no purpose to debate you when you're just skipping back on an old groove.

And you are...?

In two threads now after the one you keep linking, you've brought up that you--and only you--believe Shojo's sending Miko to arrest the Order is implausible. You haven't tried to support it since that thread was active; you've just acted like it's an invincible case and everyone who disagrees, which is everyone you've ever argued the matter with, should shut up.

If you think you have a point to make, make it*, but don't be surprised when, after you've been told a dozen different reasons why you're wrong and you've simply refused to accept any of them, no one else starts acting like you're right.

Also, making the sword glow blue like that leaves me just thinking "some human female Jedi," though it is indeed clear that Miko is your thing.

*For example, you could elaborate on what, exactly, you think Shojo would have done with a sixth-level cleric spell. Do Hound Archons have some ability that would let them automatically locate Redcloak and Xykon before Xykon regenerated his body, if summoned the morning after Shojo accidentally had Eugene summoned and learned about Xykon?

The ranger...is a truly spectacular handwave to justify rejecting what's in the comic and substituting the one you would have written; if you care at all about actually convincing anyone, which is a prerequisite for being able to say "I've already dealt with this, so everyone act like what I'm saying is right," then I'd suggest you pretend you never brought it up.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm assuming that the leader of one of the largest nations on the face of the planet, while investigating an event that might threaten universal destruction, would reasonably consider time and distance to be factors important enough that he would actually employ the Teleport services that we know, within the same story, he had available to him, in order to ensure that Miko doesn't waste weeks of everyone's time, not least her own, trekking overland to find people.

I can give you a very plausible reason why based on Operational Security and Need To Know restrictions for many state secrets.
The teleportation wizard is a potential security leak, particularly the one with the drinking problem.
1. Existence of gates/snarl is a Top Secret, or higher, state secret. (I dont care if it should be or not, but for Shojo, it is). Specialized, compartmented, information is involved. That means that the number of people read in on that security issue is limited to those with a need to know. Shojo, for his own reasons, had three people with a need to know what her piece in this mission was:
A. Shojo.
B. Eugene
C. Miko
(He read Roy in on the mission once the fake trial was over)

O'Chul and other Sapphire Guarders know about the gate, but they don't have a need to know about the other gate's demise ... at least, not when Miko is sent out to do Shojo's bidding.

2. Miko was only read in on part of the program. And that's also consistent with preserving state secrets. (And it cost Shojo his head eventually).

Why so little information? Because the fewer people who know, the less chance there is for a leak with grave consequences. Shojo had, for whatever reason, assigned this mission TS and above clearance and status.

With that understanding, Miko's secret mission (and its constraints) to bring the Order to Azure City was perfectly rational.

In execution, I'll offer that it was somewhat less than elegant. And O'Chul Shojo blew OpSec out his backside once he'd made the reveal to Roy. (And that got him killed ... )

(Compare it to the body snatch on Eichman: not as well done).
(Compare it to the story about the Mossad's efforts, in a compartmentalized special ops team, to track down and eliminate those who killed the 1972 Israeli Olympic athletes as told in the movie Munich).
(And yes, I was read in on a few programs that, if one believes the fine print in the NDA / Security Disclosure Form I had to sign, I can't talk about until about the time I die if I reach the ripe old age of 95). I am so glad I don't have to deal with stuff like that anymore. Really glad.
(oops, edit up there)

[The_Weirdo]

(Compare it to the body snatch on Eichman: not as well done)

I knew that war had risks, but I didn't know it would involve dealing with pod people.

[KorvinStarmast]

I knew that war had risks, but I didn't know it would involve dealing with pod people.

Yeah, it's never as simple as people think it is.

[Kish]

And O'Chul blew OpSec out his backside once he'd made the reveal to Roy. (And that got him killed ... )

This puzzled me quite a bit before I figured out that O-Chul's Irish cousin here stands in for Shojo.

[Fyraltari]

This puzzled me quite a bit before I figured out that O-Chul's Irish cousin here stands in for Shojo.

His cousin being Shojo's secret bodydouble is the real reason O-Chul rose through the ranks.

[The_Weirdo]

His cousin being Shojo's secret bodydouble is the real reason O-Chul rose through the ranks.

You've got it wrong.

O'chul was dominated by a pod person sent by Hilgya's family to try and force Miko to marry Eichmann. Roy wouldn't allow it, so he sent Hilgya to commit a genocide against the pod people. Now, since the pod people are green and so are goblins, Miko, possessed by Hilgya, decided to go after every goblin in their world and ours. The problem is leprechauns are also green, which pissed off Shojo (or, rather, O'Chul) and triggered the destruction of the planet of the Pod People, in an effect known as the Great LSD-Fueled Retcon of That Particular Day. That's also how Miko and Hilgya saved Christmas, because Eichmann was Shapeshifted into Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer and forced into Santa Claus's service.

O-chul rose through the ranks through sheer meritocracy.

[Doctor West]

Oh, I know. I just feel like it's worth suggesting again, seeing as it obviously didn't happen the first time.

Hey, it could be worse. From the perspective of a mostly-lurker like me, these arguments are at least more interesting than two weeks of silence between strip updates. You know, kind of like a train wreck in progress or a hurricane hitting a major city is "interesting".

[zimmerwald1915]

O-chul rose through the ranks through sheer meritocracy.

I thought O-Chul rose through the ranks because he got Shojo to gradually purge most everyone more senior than him?

[The_Weirdo]

I thought O-Chul rose through the ranks because he got Shojo to gradually purge most everyone more senior than him?

You clearly are unfamiliar with my definition of meritocracy.

Meritocracy.

[zimmerwald1915]

You clearly are unfamiliar with my definition of meritocracy.

Meritocracy.

Communicating badly does not give you the right to act clever when you are misunderstood.

[Lacuna Caster]

Speaking of which, do you have a larger version of that image? And if so, may I see it?

Me too, if you please.

It's actually not my best work, but there's a slightly higher-res version here.

*For example, you could elaborate on what, exactly, you think Shojo would have done with a sixth-level cleric spell. Do Hound Archons have some ability that would let them automatically locate Redcloak and Xykon...

I was responding to arguments that the Guard couldn't have tracked Xykon/RC even if they arrived at the Gate site. Tracking down evildoers is pretty much what hound-archons and inevitables exist to do.

I'll allow that the ranger is a stretch, but Shojo was apparently willing to trust six random stooges who had recently blown up one of the Gates, including one under a Mark of Justice that he knew to be a murderer who hated his top paladin. The actual canon plotline is significantly more of a stretch. And again, this is strictly a backup plan in the event that you can't get a celestial who fits the bill.

I can give you a very plausible reason why based on Operational Security and Need To Know restrictions for many state secrets.
The teleportation wizard is a potential security leak, particularly the one with the drinking problem.

Yeah, except that Shojo uses the exact same wizard on another mission related to the same investigation when Roy asked for it. And again, by this logic, CIA agents would be unable to book taxis or use airlines. You don't have to fly the plane straight into the safehouse in order to shave weeks off your travel time.

And again, the High Priest of the Twelve could also cast Wind Walk, a sixth-level entry on the standard cleric spell list which also appears in the story.

The existence of the Gates/Snarl/Redcloak is top secret, sure, but the paladins are already in the know on this topic- what's the point to giving them clearance on this type of information if you're not going to share it with them? This is secrecy carried way past the point of being rationally productive, is kinda my point.

[ti'esar]

My suggestion for those unable to not take the bait. There is this feature called an "ignore list".

Click on a poster's user name where it occurs next to their post. Select "View Profile".

This will take you to a page that shows their posts and activity, and has options for other things, such as, "Add to Ignore List".

Click on that, then when it says "Are you sure you want to add <name> to your ignore list?" click on yes.

From then on you will not see that poster's posts, instead you will see a notice that "This message is hidden because <name> is on your ignore list."

Then you'll see everything they post in all the replies from people not on your ignore list, but at least you won't see their posts directly, and it's easy to not read the quoted text in replies.

As a side benefit, it can make pages look hilariously weird.

[Kish]

I was responding to arguments that the Guard couldn't have tracked Xykon/RC even if they arrived at the Gate site.

...No you weren't.

Or at least, if you were, you must have just linked the wrong post.

Care to try again? Because openly distorting what I said is a real bad start.

As I said (somewhere in that thread; I'm not going to track it down), I'm sure Shojo could have sent the Sapphire Guard to try to apprehend Xykon, and unless you want to make a case both that they would have gotten there in the time-window during which Xykon was regenerating and helpless, and that Shojo could have predicted that they would, that would simply have gotten them killed somewhere where they couldn't come back as ghost-martyrs. You're complaining that Shojo was more intelligent than you would have written him, masked as complaining that he was stupider than you would have written him.

Your scenarios are also consistently far more of a stretch than anything in the online comic.

[Lacuna Caster]

...Care to try again? Because openly distorting what I said is a real bad start...

How about you try actually reading the thread, or at least the entirety of the post I quoted? RatElemental was claiming that Cloister would make scrying on Xykon impossible. I countered that (A) Cloister couldn't have been in place if scrying identified the Order, and (B) you don't need to rely exclusively on scrying skills.

As I said (somewhere in that thread; I'm not going to track it down), I'm sure Shojo could have sent the Sapphire Guard to try to apprehend Xykon, and unless you want to make a case both that they would have gotten there in the time-window during which Xykon was regenerating and helpless, and that Shojo could have predicted that they would...

But why would he predict that their failure/annihilation was any more likely in this scenario than if he gave Xykon more time to regenerate and get away from his last known location? How does sending the Order weeks later, in any way, have a higher probability of success?

[The_Weirdo]

Communicating badly does not give you the right to act clever when you are misunderstood.

Okay, if I may: of that entire post, the thing you're taking issue with is that?

It's actually not my best work, but there's a slightly higher-res version here.

That's yours? Wow!

[Kish]

How about you try actually reading the thread, or at least the entirety of the post I quoted?

I did. Nowhere in it did anyone say Shojo lacked anyone who could track Xykon down if they tried, given enough time. That was 100% you creating a strawman. Now you're blurring "scrying" with "tracking."

But why would he predict that their failure/annihilation was any more likely in this scenario than if he gave Xykon more time to regenerate and get away from his last known location? How does sending the Order weeks later, in any way, have a higher probability of success?

Because he's smarter than you want him to be.

(I know, you maintain, without arguments that could convince anyone but with great obstinacy, that the "a lich sorcerer greater than any spellcaster you ever knew? I'll send my order of paladins to attack him without stopping to learn anything else first!" plan you apparently think Shojo should have gone with would have been reasonable rather than preposterously moronic. But, again...you've never convinced anybody, so I do not see why you expect to do so now.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Okay, if I may: of that entire post, the thing you're taking issue with is that?

What more do I have to do to communicate that I feel this whole topic is beneath me?

[KorvinStarmast]

This puzzled me quite a bit before I figured out that O-Chul's Irish cousin here stands in for Shojo.

yeah I just noticed that, so I'll go back and correct it. Oops.

Yeah, except that Shojo uses the exact same wizard on another mission related to the same investigation when Roy asked for it.

To Greysky city?

And again, by this logic, CIA agents would be unable to book taxis or use airlines.

Nope, but some secret agents will take convoluted routes to get to a place if the cover story needs it. (FWIW, Bernard Cornwell's Scoundrel has a nice take on that).

The existence of the Gates/Snarl/Redcloak is top secret, sure, but the paladins are already in the know on this topic- what's the point to giving them clearance on this type of information if you're not going to share it with them?

The Sapphire guard was read in on their gate, and their dire need to defend it. They were not read in on the destruction of the gate the Elan pushed the button on. Compartmented information, for rational reasons.

Shoju's other secret keeping was more devious, in terms of keeping it from the rest of his government due to his internal problems with the feudal structure of that government. And yes, secrecy for the sake of secrecy can backfire. (See Miko's response). It isn't your place to say, though, nor mine. It is the place of he who dedicated his life to the security of Azure City despite it's chaotic feudal power dynamics, which came nicely into play in the following story arc with Kubota. He was right to be suspicious of the nobles.

His priority was pretty good, in terms of Azure City's security, and to some extent the world's.
His desire for compartmentalizing secrets was rational.
Of course, with those kinds of stakes, risks abound. The execution had enough wrinkles in them, and the 'one man is indispensable' attitude carried dire consequences, so the outcome ended up being suboptimal. Was Hinjo worthy of being in on the state secrets? IMO, yes, as the "next man up." So that mistake was one of Shojo's biggest.

It's actually not my best work, but there's a slightly higher-res version here.

PS, thanks for the link. I also enjoy that picture.

[Peelee]

How about you try actually reading the thread, or at least the entirety of the post I quoted? RatElemental was claiming that Cloister would make scrying on Xykon impossible. I countered that (A) Cloister couldn't have been in place if scrying identified the Order

Did scryong identify the Order? Shojo merely says his diviner told him of the gate going down, and he heard if the Order.

[Kish]

Scrying did not identify the Order, but Shojo's diviner was apparently able to scry the site of Dorukan's Dungeon.

Shojo could, had he so chosen, have gone from his first conversation with Eugene to teleporting the Sapphire Guard to the site of Dorukan's Dungeon and having Miko--or a Hound Archon, if he so chose and the High Priest of the Twelve Gods had an appropriate spell prepared that day--lead them after Xykon and Redcloak.

As I have mentioned (and I don't even have to link another thread to show that I have), this would have been a thoroughly stupid move for Shojo to make, and would certainly have gotten the Sapphire Guard wiped out in a one-sided clash with Xykon (and Redcloak, but Xykon wouldn't have needed Redcloak).

[Lacuna Caster]

I did. Nowhere in it did anyone say Shojo lacked anyone who could track Xykon down if they tried, given enough time. That was 100% you creating a strawman. Now you're blurring "scrying" with "tracking."

No. I am pointing out two separate reasons why the Cloister argument is bogus. Try to keep up.

In any case, Shojo did not have to send his paladins to attack. He could send them to scout and gather information first- exactly like the Order were supposed to- and maybe destroy X/RC immediately if it seems like there's an opportunity. But the task of gathering information is not going to get easier if you waste weeks of time on pointless travel.

To Greysky city?

On a mission ostensibly to help gather information on Xykon (where Roy, as it happens, immediately blabs this sensitive information to said Wizard. Yeah, great compartmentalisation there.)

What 'cover story' is Miko supposedly employing? She states her real name, her purpose, her organisation, and the actual grounds for arrest out loud in front of her targets. This is not some kind of mole operation.

Shoju's other secret keeping was more devious, in terms of keeping it from the rest of his government due to his internal problems with the feudal structure of that government. And yes, secrecy for the sake of secrecy can backfire. (See Miko's response). It isn't your place to say, though, nor mine...

But how is this anything more than an argument that we're not allowed to question Shojo's decisions and competence (or more generally the story around them) simply because he was in a position of power? I'm sorry, but I am not about to do that or accept it as valid reasoning.

Did scryong identify the Order? Shojo merely says his diviner told him of the gate going down, and he heard if the Order.

Miko states that the Sapphire Guard's diviners have clearly identified the Order as responsible for destroying the Gate.
.

[2D8HP]

...Can we talk about something else now?

Sure.

Andromeda did no wrong, she was being oppressed!

[Peelee]

Miko states that the Sapphire Guard's diviners have clearly identified the Order as responsible for destroying the Gate.
.

And is scrying the only way to tell? My, the divination school shrank impressively since last I looked.

[Lacuna Caster]

And is scrying the only way to tell? My, the divination school shrank impressively since last I looked.

No, Scrying is not the only way to tell. However, the Cloister spell explicitly blocks all known forms of non-epic divination, so the Guard could not have divined information about the Order if the Cloister spell had been covering the dungeon. Thus refuting RatElemental's point from the other thread.

[The_Weirdo]

Sure.

Andromeda did no wrong, she was being oppressed!

You mean the mythical figure?

[The MunchKING]

What is sad about this whole intervention is that has led most of the forum to sympathize with rich people losing their accumulated/inherited wealth.

To be fair in the previous threads they were mostly talking about the babies that would be dependent on their parents' wealth for food/shelter/etc.