OOTS #1147 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

Murderers are like cops, but evil. Am I doing this argument right? It seems like I'm doing this argument right.

Nah, if you want to do the argument right, it's "cops are like murderers, but uniformed."

Works on soldiers too, if that's your jam.

[Goblin_Priest]

Oh boy multi quotes become tedious to multi quote.

Murderers are like cops, but evil. Am I doing this argument right? It seems like I'm doing this argument right.

Yea, that sounds about right.

We ARE talking about a supernatural force that is somehow a mix of a sentient entity, an electromagnetic field to tap in, and a swarm of medichlorians.

I mean, within that concept, then yea, I guess criminals could balance out cops...?

But... there's not much spirituality in there. Some people have made more detailed arguments on what this balance could be, and the most sensible ones, imo, are the more psychanalytical ones that oppose id vs superego. The Sith being the embodiements of "do what you want", and the Jedi of the "do that thing you are expected to in order to be righteous" or whatnot. After all, emotions lead to the dark side, and Anakin is constantly told by the Jedi to suppress his emotions.

Jar Jar got elected Senator, and was the instigator for giving Palpatine the emergency powers he needed to become emperor. Just because you don't follow events doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Technically true, yes, but being responsible for a series of goof ups makes for a poor "key to it all" kind of gig. He was just one piece among many others, and none of these important events were of his own initiative. He just got manipulated like a total tool.

Someone trained in the Force and accepted by the other Jedi. Pretty easy concept there, gotta say.

He calls himself a Jedi, not a master. See above.

A fair argument. Did Yoda ever actually accept Luke as a jedi master, though? All I remember is that he scolded him for not finishing his training. I'm a little hazy on the details, but I don't remember Yoda and Luke talking much more after that, before he passed on. Luke mostly self-trained. And compared to the jedis of old... he really never got all that powerful. What did he achieve that... uhm... whatshername from the sequels did not? She did the mind tricks, force pull, etc. Was she a jedi then? Because she hadn't been neither trained nor accepted by any jedi, she hadn't even met any at that point.

I'm fairly sure Luke calls himself "Jedi Master" in episode 6.

You make an excellent point for the whole idea of the prophecy not making much sense to begin with

Well, it less makes little sense if interpreted as making light and dark equal than if making light dominate. That said, I'll myself offer the counter-argument that "if the prophecy meant bring the sith and jedi to equality, why the hell would Qui-Gon even want that?".

However much it makes sense or not, though, it's there, it's canon.

Before Disney wiped the slate, there were more than two Jedi who escaped Order 66. So by your own argument, no, the numbers weren't equal.

I don't believe any of my arguments absolutely required the expanded universe to be canon. A lot of silliness was to be found there for sure, anyhow.

You explicitly admit it has to be a handwave for that theory to work, then?

[citation required]

When there is no other choice, why not?

I mean, we're debating space cowboys with light swords and magic tricks here.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I really would like it if posts quoting people on my ignore list would be ignored, too.
Would make threads like this one much easier to read.

Indeed, that would be much preferable.

(Also, being able to make threads, instead of just people's posts, not appear.)

Sounds like you'd both like Xenforo, as it does this by default. You don't even see the "this person is on your Ignore List" thing. It's just gone, completely ignored.

[Sir_Norbert]

At this point I've lost track of who actually believes the "balance = equal numbers" nonsense and who's just making noise to divert the conversation away from long-dead paladins.

[Peelee]

A fair argument. Did Yoda ever actually accept Luke as a jedi master, though?
[snip]
I'm fairly sure Luke calls himself "Jedi Master" in episode 6.

All else aside (it got a bit busy at work not long ago), why are you getting hung up on Yoda accepting Luke as a master? He accepted Luke as a Jedi.

Also, please, source Luke calling himself a Master in ep. 6. Youtube is very useful. Luke says "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." In Ep 4, Vader says, "when I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master," to which Obi-Wan replies "Sit down, young Skywalker." Or something to that effect.

[Fyraltari]

We ARE talking about a supernatural force that is somehow a mix of a sentient entity, an electromagnetic field to tap in, and a swarm of medichlorians.

I mean, within that concept, then yea, I guess criminals could balance out cops...?

The Force is the Universe is Life is God basically, it's really not that complicated. The Midi-chlorians were never described as being the source or part of the Forces just as intermediaries between Jedi and the Force.

But... there's not much spirituality in there. Some people have made more detailed arguments on what this balance could be, and the most sensible ones, imo, are the more psychanalytical ones that oppose id vs superego. The Sith being the embodiements of "do what you want", and the Jedi of the "do that thing you are expected to in order to be righteous" or whatnot. After all, emotions lead to the dark side, and Anakin is constantly told by the Jedi to suppress his emotions.

You are saying that like psychanalysis and spirituality are incompatible.

I'm fairly sure Luke calls himself "Jedi Master" in episode 6.

Nope. Jedi Knight.

However much it makes sense or not, though, it's there, it's canon.

No it's not. The Balance is never described as being between Light and Darkness. They only ever call it the Balance. Because they're space Taoist.

When there is no other choice, why not?

I mean, we're debating space cowboys with light swords and magic tricks here.

Is that supposed to be an argument?

[Kish]

At this point I've lost track of who actually believes the "balance = equal numbers" nonsense and who's just making noise to divert the conversation away from long-dead paladins.

The only one actually claiming either at the moment is Goblin_Priest.

[Fyraltari]

I, for one, would rather argue Star Wars than Miko or Hilgya.

[Ruck]

Murderers are like cops, but evil. Am I doing this argument right?

No, but I'm certain my explanation would violate a lot of rules here.

[Resileaf]

I, for one, would rather argue Star Wars than Miko or Hilgya.

Miko shot first.

[Peelee]

Nah, if you want to do the argument right, it's "cops are like murderers, but uniformed."

Works on soldiers too, if that's your jam.

No, but I'm certain my explanation would violate a lot of rules here.

Objections sustained. For the purposes of my argument, assume an ideal world for that analogy.

[Fyraltari]

Objections sustained. For the purposes of my argument, assume an ideal world for that analogy.

An ideal world has no murderers and no need for policemen.

[2D8HP]

I, for one, would rather argue Star Wars than Miko or Hilgya.

It is an improvement, but what would make it even better if we could include references to The Silmarillion and medieval carpentry.

Tolkien to Lucas: "You can't touch this fellow I'm too towering!

Your prequels are subpar, you had to sell your work short like a 14th century joiners who's wages are less than the price of the nails, while I've got my children makin' millions on my Silmarillion's!"

Okay I admit it needs work.

Also, I hate sports.

[Peelee]

An ideal world has no murderers and no need for policemen.

Get out of here with your logic and reason!

Replace cops and murderers with British and French, then. And just for that, I'm not going to tell you who correlates to which.

[Fyraltari]

It is an improvement, but what would make it even better if we could include references to The Silmarillion and medieval carpentry.

Now, that's my kind of talk!

Tolkien to Lucas: "You can't touch this fellow I'm too towering!

Your prequels are subpar, you had to sell your work short like a 14th century joiners who's wages are less than the price of the nails, while I've got my children makin' millions on my Silmarillion's!"

Okay I admit it needs work.

Also, I hate sports.

Kings, Princesses, Knights, Wizards, Fortresses, Magic and Swords...
You Hob_bit my whole ****, you uninspired hack.
You want a war, George? Welcome to Shire-rac.

... You're a pirate, you even stole my (J)ar (J)ar!

I'm sorry.

Also you missed the pun on "Fellow. ****!"

EDIT:

Get out of here with your logic and reason!

Replace cops and murderers with British and French, then. And just for that, I'm not going to tell you who correlates to which.

Easy one. We all know evil has better taste in food, drinks and clothes.

[2D8HP]

Get out of here with your logic and reason!

Replace cops and murderers with British and French, then. And just for that, I'm not going to tell you who correlates to which.

I thought that in Celestia

the British are the policemen

the French are the cooks

the German are the mechanics

the Italians are the lovers

and the Swiss organize everything

And in the Abyss

the German are the policemen

the British are the cooks

the French are the mechanics

the Swiss are the lovers

and the Italians organize everything

No mention of murderers.

[Peelee]

No mention of murderers.

Really? I counted two:

the British are the cooks

the French are the mechanics

[2D8HP]

.. You're a pirate, you even stole my (J)ar (J)ar!

Excellent!

Truly @Fyraltari you're more rock 'n roll than I've ever been.

Don't believe me?

Ask Led Zeppelin!

Really? I counted two:

I stand corrected.

I feel shame.

[The Pilgrim]

So, looks like the Brits and the French are bringing balance to the Force.

[The_Weirdo]

Murderers are like cops, but evil. Am I doing this argument right? It seems like I'm doing this argument right.

You're not Brazilian, are you?

Nah, if you want to do the argument right, it's "cops are like murderers, but uniformed."

Works on soldiers too, if that's your jam.

'It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.' - Voltaire.

[Ruck]

Get out of here with your logic and reason!

Replace cops and murderers with British and French, then. And just for that, I'm not going to tell you who correlates to which.

I have an answer to this, but it might be even further outside the rules than my first one.

[Fyraltari]

Excellent!

Truly @Fyraltari you're more rock 'n roll than I've ever been.

Don't believe me?

Ask Led Zeppelin!

Thank you.

Also Tolkien utterly slayed Martin in this.

[Peelee]

I have an answer to this, but it might be even further outside the rules than my first one.

Well now I'm just plain intrigued.

[The Pilgrim]

Miko was a Cop, and a Murderer. Did she bring balance to the Force?

[Fyraltari]

Miko was a Cop, and a Murderer. Did she bring balance to the Force?

No because she was neither British nor French, not even Japanese.
Try to keep up!

[The Pilgrim]

No because she was neither British nor French, not even Japanese.
Try to keep up!

But she did definitely draw first!

[The_Weirdo]

But she did definitely draw first!

Shojo, however, was no sheriff.

[Ruck]

Shojo, however, was no sheriff.

Actually, I think in this case, Shojo was the sheriff, and Hinjo was the deputy.

[The_Weirdo]

Actually, I think in this case, Shojo was the sheriff, and Hinjo was the deputy.

You'd know it better than I do: did sheriffs also make policy decisions?

[The Pilgrim]

Actually, I think in this case, Shojo was the sheriff, and Hinjo was the deputy.

More like Shojo was the Master, and Hinjo de Apprentice. From a certain point of view.