Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

[Narkis]

Meanwhile, in Outer Worlds, they have to put the main questgiver NPC behind bulletproof glass just to stop me from ending him on a whim. And it looks like there's options to refuse to work with him (and/or betray him) right from the start of the game, but I haven't explored that so there may be a "But thou must..." lurking somewhere in the dialogue tree.

Yeah, I've heard about that. It's a game I'd like to check out once it's on sale on Steam.

[Triaxx]

New Vegas world has a two-fold punch. First, it's set in the Mojave, which is already a wasteland. Fallout just added a bunch of radiation and mutants to it.

Second of you came to the series with the first two, it's like coming home. The world makes the story, and is an integral part of it.

It's that lack of a setting that fits that hurts F3. A story about the importance of water works marvelously in a desert. Not so much in a lush, wetland. (Or rather it can, but needs to be told differently.)

As for Fallout 4... I don't hate it, but it lacked things I liked a out of the box.

And if you like it, but don't want to build them your self, use Sim Settlements. Let's you automate the process.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I will admit, hearing NPCs in New Vegas mention elements and locations of Fallout 1 and 2 did tickle my nostalgia bones a fair bit.

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I especially like how Marcus never shows any regret or remorse for what the Master was up to. From how he talks, the dream is over, but it wasn't inherently wrong. He's just moved on, and found a new purpose is keeping the super mutants together and safe.

[factotum]

Yeah, I've heard about that. It's a game I'd like to check out once it's on sale on Steam.

If your issue with it is the Epic game store, it's also available on the Microsoft store, as stated earlier.

[Lord Raziere]

If your issue with it is the Epic game store, it's also available on the Microsoft store, as stated earlier.

just be sure that you check that its the PC page not the Xbox page. they look very similar and I made the mistake of not reading in time and had to purchase the game twice and ask for a refund on the xbox version because I don't have one.

Outer Worlds is fun though! still worth it.

[Narkis]

If your issue with it is the Epic game store, it's also available on the Microsoft store, as stated earlier.

I don't really mind waiting, Obsidian games tend to get better with time. And I also have an issue with the Microsoft store. Games for Windows Live still gives me nightmares, and I'm not sure Microsoft learned anything from that debacle.

just be sure that you check that its the PC page not the Xbox page. they look very similar and I made the mistake of not reading in time and had to purchase the game twice and ask for a refund on the xbox version because I don't have one.

Outer Worlds is fun though! still worth it.

Case in point.

[Cikomyr]

I have to say, I was initially disappointed with the BoS when I thought it was just Paladin Dayne in the Cambridge Police station. But the reveal of their full force introduction was fantastic.

I really felt like a third worlder suddenly seeing the full might of the US military showing up in my country while they clamor "we are not hositle".

Also, come to think of it, it's the US military intervening in a third world nation to root out a secret organisation that might have infiltrated sympathiser among the general population, but is feared by the majority.

And before anyone think it's political: I am ascribing similarities in term of power relationship and projection, not in term of ideology of any way. It's still a game, with a made-up world and made-up people and made-up ideologies. I just liked the feeling the game made me feel at that moment.

[Triaxx]

I mean, it's definitely a cold war aesthetic, no matter how you put it. And that's the core of Fallout.

[Cikomyr]

I mean, it's definitely a cold war aesthetic, no matter how you put it. And that's the core of Fallout.

Yes, but the cold war is.. Kind of the superficial of Fallout? Like, it's the skin, and goes nowhere deeper than that?

The real experience of Fallout is usually the Western. But in this case, it's the Western with a hint of Colonialism

[Vinyadan]

I wouldn't say Cold War because it was too long, more like "the Fifties". Sputnik eyebots and all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, I could hop aboard the anti-hype train about Fallout First, and 76, and betrayal, and yadda yadda yadda, buuut... honestly? I just don't care enough about F76 anymore to really give it the properly vitriolic treatment that it amply deserves. Bethesda has pushed me beyond hate and clear into apathy. To be blunt, they have made me not care about their game, and possibly any future games, they might crank out. That's really where they've put me.

You can bank of fan loyalty. You can even bank on fan angst, because it's at least 'free publicity'. I'm sure there are some people who might actually like the idea of paying a monthly fee for a private server, and now there's not a single person on the goddamn planet who doesn't know that is exactly what is going on. But apathy? You can't bank on that. I literally don't care enough about the game, and to an increasing degree, the company who produced it, to complain anymore. That's where I am at the moment.

It's like that moment when you're in a bad relationship, you *know* it's bad, but just couldn't work up the nerve to end it until they do something really bad, and you just wake up one day and realize that you just don't care about the relationship anymore, and let the other party know that you wish them well in whatever future endeavors they might have... without you. I'm just... done with this. Done.

As far as Outer Worlds... I mean, it's everything I wanted in a Fallout game, but didn't know to ask. It's, strictly speaking, not a sandbox RPG, because progression is actually pretty tightly constrained by plot. You can't just hop on the 15, dodge the deathclaws, and be in New Vegas in under a half hour. Various things keep you from progressing faster than the speed of Plot. Having said that... I find it to be a better experience because of it. Unlike most Bethesda sandbox offerings, you can actually have substantially game-altering decisions relatively early in the game. The first one occurs in the first section of the first planet you start on. This has a continuous impact on what quests are available in the region following the decision, which factions are where, and impact on other quests that might bring you back here that are offered after this choice is made.

It is a far more carefully crafted experience, and far more full of things to do. It's far more dense in terms of points of interest than New Vegas or Fallout 4 by a longshot. And as a result, always keeps you engaged. There's only a half dozen or so Companions, but they are surprisingly deep personalities. I really like how, instead of carrying things for you, they increase your carry capacity so you don't leave stuff on your companion by accident and lose it. Also, different companions give you different bonuses while in the party. For example, one might give you a bonus to social skills while another might give a bonus to larcenous skills.

The skill system is another amazing part of this game, an old dog learning some new tricks. First off, the skills are grouped in categories of 3 skills. You can put a point into the category, and it will increase each individual skill in that group accordingly... up to a skill of 50. After that, you have to invest in the skill individually. Every twenty points, you unlock a bonus associated with that skill, for example lockpicking might take less time or healing items might be more effective, instead of locking these behind perks.

Speaking of perks, there's another mechanic I'd like to gush about, that would've done very well in Fallout... the flaw system. Every so often, depending on what unfortunate events you encounter, you can get offered a Flaw. This is a permanent negative, and most of them are pretty unpleasant, but it comes with a bonus Perk. So if you're willing to take the flaw, you can have bonus perks. For example, Permanent Concussion drops both of your Mental stats by one, permanently, but then you can take another perk. Other examples are x-phobia which gives you reduced combat abilities against x and take 25% more damage from [damage flavor]. So it's up to you if you want bonus perks, or if you don't feel it is worth the downside.

I don't know if I'd call Outer Worlds the new Fallout... because honestly it is damning it with faint praise. As far as some of the systems go, I somehow get a Rage 2 vibe from it. And it's got Obsidian's in-depth lore building and character interaction trees that have a substantial impact on how the game plays out. But it's still got that postmodern futuristic dystopian vibe to it. I'd say Outer Worlds has taken inspiration from many different sources, and learned lessons from all of them... both what to do and what not to do.

But the biggest reason I don't think Outer Worlds shouldn't be called the new Fallout? Been watching CohhCarnage stream this all week now, eight hours a day... not a single CTD, not a single bug, not a single glytch, not a single time has he gotten stuck on geometry... and smooth 60 FPS the whole way. Obsidian did something Bethesda was never able to do... provided a complete and stable game at launch.

[Cikomyr]

I wouldn't say Cold War because it was too long, more like "the Fifties". Sputnik eyebots and all.

That's the superficial coloring of the World That Was. It's not actually defining the feel of the gameplay and story itself.

The point of using The Happy Fifties as the cultural cornerstone of the World That Was was to have a huge contrast of carefree self destructive consumerism contrast against the bare, wild and dangerous frontier that Southern California has becomed.

The World That Was in Fallout was a world with a tyrannical government, corporate interests ran amok and the US conquered Canada for oil and stated shooting Canadians prisoners in the street. The "Happy 50s" was a propaganda tool meant to reassure the masses that everything was going to be okay. Infantilizing the population into accepting that the horrors of inevitable war was not *actually * going to happen.

[factotum]

But the biggest reason I don't think Outer Worlds shouldn't be called the new Fallout? Been watching CohhCarnage stream this all week now, eight hours a day... not a single CTD, not a single bug, not a single glytch, not a single time has he gotten stuck on geometry... and smooth 60 FPS the whole way. Obsidian did something Bethesda was never able to do... provided a complete and stable game at launch.

To be fair, if they have achieved that then that's practically unique for Obsidian as well, they were well known for producing games that barely worked on launch--see: Fallout New Vegas and Alpha Protocol for excellent examples.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be fair, if they have achieved that then that's practically unique for Obsidian as well, they were well known for producing games that barely worked on launch--see: Fallout New Vegas and Alpha Protocol for excellent examples.

To be fair it wasn't Obsidian's fault that New Vegas was so buggy, given the constraints and the engine they were working with. They didn't have time to fix engine bugs (which, by the way, were still present not only in Fallout 4, but in F76 as well...) if they were going to launch a finished product in the time frame demanded.

Haven't seen enough of Alpha Protocol to say one way or the other.

[Cikomyr]

To be fair, if they have achieved that then that's practically unique for Obsidian as well, they were well known for producing games that barely worked on launch--see: Fallout New Vegas and Alpha Protocol for excellent examples.

Publisher
Publisher
Publisher

You will notice that most of Obsidian titles that are super buggy have publishers with.. Certain track record. Aloha Protocol was Sega. New Vegas was Bethesda.

Compare Obsidian work with Paradox as a publisher. Pillars of Eternity. Tyranny.

For Outer Worlds, Obsidian publisher was Private Division, who also published Kerbal Space Program. They have a track record of patience for quality.

[Vinyadan]

Aloha Protocol

I'd play that game.

[Cikomyr]

I'd play that game.

....

Me too

[Lord Raziere]

But the biggest reason I don't think Outer Worlds shouldn't be called the new Fallout? Been watching CohhCarnage stream this all week now, eight hours a day... not a single CTD, not a single bug, not a single glytch, not a single time has he gotten stuck on geometry... and smooth 60 FPS the whole way. Obsidian did something Bethesda was never able to do... provided a complete and stable game at launch.

There is one instance where it unexpectedly CTD for me but once I got back in, worked like a breeze. there is also something about sound cutting out I saw on Zito's stream? but those are the only two bugs that I've seen, and they are rare. like, only two bugs is still miles ahead of Bethesda.

but yeah,Outer Worlds isn't a new Fallout, because it outclasses it. in every way. there is no reason to go back. if they make an equivalent for fantasy, no lie, skyrim might be in trouble.

[Rodin]

but yeah,Outer Worlds isn't a new Fallout, because it outclasses it. in every way. there is no reason to go back. if they make an equivalent for fantasy, no lie, skyrim might be in trouble.

Hmm, I feel like there needs to be some qualifiers here. My praise for Outer Worlds isn't ceasing, but there are certain ways that Fallout still outclasses Outer Worlds.

1) Exploration. There's no ability to just say "second star from the left, and straight on 'til morning" like in Fallout. The areas just aren't big enough for that, and stuff you discover is all tightly tied to a quest. If you arrive at an area without having done the necessary prerequisites, the doors will just be locked and you can't get in, or a key NPC will not be present. The Bethesda Fallout games are all big sandboxes with emphasis on playing in the sand rather than building a sandcastle according to a set of blueprints. Outer Worlds has superior questing, Fallout does better atmospheric storytelling.

2) Combat. The gunplay in Outer Worlds is...serviceable. It does the job, but there's nothing flashy about it. It blends Fallout with Borderlands with Mass Effect, but it does none of it as well as the original games it's pulling the combat from. The enemy variety isn't great, some guns feel FAR more powerful than others, and human enemies are a joke. It's possible this may change on higher difficulties, but I mostly find myself doing the combat in order to get TO somewhere rather than for the joy of combat itself.

3) Perks. Oh dear, the perks. I have never seen a more boring set of perks, other than possibly Skyrim. Part of this is because the interesting effects are all split up into the different skills, but the perks themselves are bad enough that they feel like they were added because Fallout had them. The skills have their own issue - namely that later ranks are typically just enhancements to whatever the first rank gave you.

4) Loot. While it's preferable to Fallout 4's "bring a truck and pick up everything in sight", the loot is not very exciting overall. There's consumables, basic stuff like lockpicks and weapon parts, and then weapons and armor. There's not much in the way of exciting loot, and almost all the weapons and armor that I use is either store-bought or plucked off enemy carcasses since that loot is leveled and the stuff you find on-location doesn't appear to be.

5) Radiant AI. Yeah, the Radiant AI is a huge pain in the ass and is janky as all hell. I still find it superior to having NPCs stood around in exactly the same place all day long. The towns in Outer Worlds feel like MMO quest hubs, and the only thing that changes them is a trigger. The mayor will always be stood in the exact same place in his office until you turn the lights off, at which point he goes and stands outside. Unless you turn the lights back on, he'll remain standing outside forever. It's a little thing, but it gave a noticeable hit to my immersion.

-----

To sum all that up: Bethesda may not know much, but they know how to build a looter-shooter. The actual gameplay of Fallout is superior to that of Outer Worlds. It's just shackled to a world that was abandoned in favor of catering to loot-based gameplay.

Overall, Outer Worlds is clearly superior...at least, for me. I'm there for the story, quests, and character interactions, and Outer Worlds blows Fallout out of the water in that department.

[Triaxx]

I've been wandering around the internet like a blindfolded monkey the past couple days, trying so hard to avoid Outer World's until I can afford it. But I'm happy to hear it's good.

[factotum]

2) Combat. The gunplay in Outer Worlds is...serviceable. It does the job, but there's nothing flashy about it. It blends Fallout with Borderlands with Mass Effect, but it does none of it as well as the original games it's pulling the combat from. The enemy variety isn't great, some guns feel FAR more powerful than others, and human enemies are a joke.

Outer Worlds does do the old Fallout thing of often providing non-combat ways to complete stuff, of course--for instance:

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I just did the quest where you have to find out why a relay has gone offline for Groundbreaker, and it's possible to hack a terminal to make all the security robots go back to their charging stations and become passive, allowing you to go round the entire area without fighting anything.

[Rodin]

Outer Worlds does do the old Fallout thing of often providing non-combat ways to complete stuff, of course--for instance:

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I just did the quest where you have to find out why a relay has gone offline for Groundbreaker, and it's possible to hack a terminal to make all the security robots go back to their charging stations and become passive, allowing you to go round the entire area without fighting anything.

Oh, absolutely. A couple more examples:

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In one quest, I avoided fighting at all by using the Holo-Guise (or whatever it's called, I think I'm calling it by the Ratchet & Clank name but it's the same device) to stroll through the area, then hacked a terminal in the foreman's office and fired all the workers. This made the security robots attack the workers and guards so they all killed each other.

In another, I ingratiated myself to a mercenary corporation and had them hit the door first. I strolled through after them and looted the bodies.

The game likes to come out and tell you that there's multiple ways to approach each mission, which I appreciate. Knowing that there's access to a dungeon via the sewers is better than roaming the landscape for ages hoping to get lucky or completing the dungeon and finding the sewer entrance from the other side.

[Chen]

The story, quests, characters and atmosphere in Outer Worlds are all amazing. The combat itself is decent but not top notch. Enemy variety is kinda poor and human enemies are completely pointless. My ****ty companions will easily wipe out a camp of humans. Throw some creatures at them and they fall apart though.

Character progression in terms of skills is great. The extra abilities you get as a skill levels is very neat. Perks are complete garbage though. Completely uninspiring and they don't feel good to get. Loot is also very mediocre. And just adding a MK II or Ultra to the same skin of an old gun is a real cop out.

That said, it's still a great game. And I am optimistic that almost everything I'm complaining about can probably be resolved by mods, once they come. Though I'm not sure how moddable this game is compared to the fallout ones. There is a fair bit of open space on the various maps so you can probably add content without too much trouble, assuming there's some sort of tools/framework available.

[Morty]

I haven't played TOW yet, but as far as combat and loot are concerned, it's not like any Fallout game, old or new, was spectacular about it. FO1 and FO2 are janky, and the Bethesda ones are... well, serviceable. Likewise with loot. Gather a lot of crap, keep some, sell others... standard RPG fare that I hope the genre will finally get rid of someday.

[Balmas]

Psst--

I've just created an Outer Worlds thread, if we want to split it off into two separate threads.

[Cikomyr]

I wanna know if there are good "spectacle" storytelling moment like the Brotherhood Airship coming in the Commonwealth.

No need to spoil what they are, I just wanna have a clue.

[DigoDragon]

Likewise with loot. Gather a lot of crap, keep some, sell others... standard RPG fare that I hope the genre will finally get rid of someday.

I don't think the games would be as fun without the loot. Now, I wouldn't mind it if they had fewer loot pieces given, but make each piece a little more valuable/better quality.

[Morty]

I don't think the games would be as fun without the loot. Now, I wouldn't mind it if they had fewer loot pieces given, but make each piece a little more valuable/better quality.

I can't remember a game where loot was fun, rather than something I try to spend as little time with as possible. Fallout is no exception and has an annoying power creep that eventually puts you in power armor and gives you energy weapons. When I played New Vegas, I installed mods to make my trusty mercenary jacket and rifle level with me, so I never had to worry about this again. Sadly, this made them pretty overpowered. Or at least the jacket, which healed me, gave me stealth bonuses and such.

[Erloas]

To me Fallout shouldn't be about the loot. And while having weapons and gear with random variables and special abilities are pretty much expected these days, I don't think it fits the setting and I don't think it enhances the gameplay at all. It usually leads to things like X upgrade is really good, but we don't want people to get it too early so we're going to make it really expensive. Then you've got a lot of really expensive items people want, so you've got to make ways to get money, so piles and piles of meaningless items to collect and sell. Then you've got to make things like the NPC doesn't actually have all the stuff they have, so you can't just kill them and take all the stuff and merchants have so much money that you're wondering why they're living in squalor.

Especially in a character and setting driven RPG the item progression should be relatively flat, but what you can do with any given weapon gets much better as you get more powerful. *Admitting fully that I haven't played 1&2 in quite a while* what I remember of them is that was mostly the case there, with a few, essentially tiers of weapons, but having the AP to use them a lot and the accuracy to make called shots, and a few perks, are what made up a lot of the progression.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I can't remember a game where loot was fun, rather than something I try to spend as little time with as possible. Fallout is no exception and has an annoying power creep that eventually puts you in power armor and gives you energy weapons. When I played New Vegas, I installed mods to make my trusty mercenary jacket and rifle level with me, so I never had to worry about this again. Sadly, this made them pretty overpowered. Or at least the jacket, which healed me, gave me stealth bonuses and such.

We must have very different play styles, then, because I always felt power armor and energy weapons in New Vegas were... mostly hot garbage. Certainly power armor was. There were a couple of energy weapons worth equipping, I suppose, such as the Hyperbreeder Alpha and the Holorifle and maaaaybe the YCS/186, but most of the energy weapons were pretty lousy all told.

Nope, I was decked out in Boone's Cap, the Tri-radii valiance thing from OWB, and either Ulysses' Duster or Joshua Graham's armor. That +10% crit gear was damn sexy when paired with Christine's CoS Silenced Rifle's 2.5x crit multiplier. Even without any extras, that's a minimum 25% crit chance right there. With a 10 luck, that goes up to a 50% chance. Finesse on top of that pushes it up to almost a two-thirds crit chance. Tack on the perk for light armor and a few other odds and sods, and yea... who needs stealth when you crit over half the time anyway? Oh, but the rifle is still silenced, so there's no reason to not take advantage of the stealth sniper build which is so ridiculously overpowered in F:NV, and cannot be done with energy weapons since no energy weapon can be silenced.