Cheese the heck of of an Artificer

[Max Caysey]

What up vanilla faces...

I was told by one of my gaming dudes, that an Artificer can be crazy strong, like real OP. I looked up the class... didn't get it. So, where else to go, than the one and only cheese shop in town... The GitP Fora...

Anywho, I fail to see how this class is OP! Can anyone here illuminate me on why my dude would think so?


Cheers!

[phlidwsn]

A good start is the Artificer Handbook. But the highlights are it can cast any spell off any list by essentially making a 1-shot wand of the spell on the fly, it can stack metamagics on wands to do vast damage (at a cost of burning out a fresh wand in 2-3 shots) and can make any magic item in the game, which is a unlimited field of cheese if you include generous approval of custom items.

[unseenmage]

It also gets access to those spells sooner than their own classes.


That said, deny an Artificer gold, experience, or time and they're much less powerful.


They're like a full caster that requires days to even weeks to prep their spellbook but once they do they can (optimally) set off spells functionally at will.

[Menzath]

Part of what can make an artificer so strong is also the early access to wish crafting. All they need to do is hit a DC 37 umd check and it's shenanigans aplenty.
Also add in the alternate methods to pay for crafting xp from the wotc web article, and now your simulacrums, ice assassin's, and persisted extended body outside body clones can now be used as xp batteries.(to bad the clones can only be used on items that take two days or less to make. Which is about every scroll.)
Thought bottles are great early on, but not as good as no loss whatsoever.

And as mentioned the versatility. Almost literally having any spell needed in your back pocket can trivialize so much.

[Telonius]

Wizards are often compared to Batman, but I think the comparison is more apt to Artificers. Given sufficient time, plus the GP value of Wayne Enterprises, and he will beat you.

A few assumptions that are common in the power discussion: GP isn't stingy, there is time to craft, and XP is a river. Crafting is what the character is all about, and crafting requires time, GP, and XP. If a DM limits any of these, the usefulness goes down.

Under most circumstances, crafting items is "worth it" for GP. If you craft your whole party's gear, they can allocate their purchases more efficiently. So instead of selling off 8000gp worth of loot to get 4000gp, then spending all of it on Gloves of Dex +2, they can pay you 2000gp to craft the Gloves of Dex and another 2000 on anything else useful. The only thing that's "lost" is time and XP. If your DM is on the ball, he'll realize this is going to happen and periodically ask you for the total GP value of your wealth and compare it to the WBL table. If it's out of whack, the DM *should* start reducing the value of your treasure until you're more in line with it. But not all DMs do this. If they don't, the party will start steamrolling encounters that are designed for characters with vastly less wealth available to them.

Second thing: time to craft. If you have it, you're very powerful. If you don't, you're either inconvenienced or reduced to nothing but your Infusions, depending on how serious the constraints are. There are ways to get around some parts of the downtime issue. The most common is to get the crafter homunculus, stick him in a bag of holding with a set of tools and the materials he needs, and let him go to work while you're adventuring. The amount of downtime you'll have is something that a good DM really should talk to the players about if anyone is going to be an item crafter. This is particularly true with Artificers. If the action of a campaign is held to within a small amount of time, it is not an appropriate campaign for an Artificer PC. DMs can be somewhat reluctant to reduce this, so as not to invalidate a character concept.

Third thing, XP is a river. Generally speaking, crafting eats up XP. Artificer does have that Craft Reserve, but if you're making loads of items (i.e. you have enough GP and time to do so) you'll burn through it fairly quickly. You will likely get to be a level behind the rest of your group at some point. Under normal rules, this isn't as crippling as it seems. Since you're a level back, you'll be getting more XP for the same encounter, and you'll catch up eventually. If the DM uses some variants of how to level up (milestone leveling, everybody gets the same amount of XP, or others) this can be more of a problem. If the DM uses other variants (RP XP) it can be less of a problem.

[Crichton]

One other thing that can be problematic is how your DM decides to enforce Wealth by Level.


At level 5, for instance you 'should' have about 9000gp worth of treasure accumulated. But as an artificer, if you've invested, say 1/2 of that amount(4500gp) into crafting items for yourself, then on paper you have a WBL of 13500, and if the DM decides that's too much and starts cutting off your loot supply to 'bring you back in line' well, then you might as well not even be crafting anything, because you're just even with the characters who just buy all their stuff.

Being an Artificer, or any crafting based character, should allow you to 'break' the WBL amounts. That's kind of the point of investing all your feats and resources into crafting. If it didn't give you that advantage, it wouldn't be worth it.


I think most DMs recognize this and take that into account, but I've had them in the past who 'audited' everyone's net worth and took action to restrict treasure allocation to characters who were over the limit on paper. Have this discussion with your DM before investing heavily into crafting.

[unseenmage]

Do note that in 3.x crafting everything on your character sheet before the game even starts is often frowned upon.

In PF there's a lengthy dev response on their forums explaining that crafting feats represent an opportunity cost and that crafters should be allowed to use them even before play starts.


And it's often table variance similar to the above that can make or break the 'overpowredness' of an Artificer.

I've played one in a gestalt game where I had infinite wealth (with the GM's blessing) and I've played an artificer in a Faerun game where there were no markets, let alone magic mart.

Having all the wealth I could ever want and access to Sigil made time constraints no obstacle, I just brute force minionmancied my way through.

On the flipside, being denied markets mattered little when the adventure was on a time crunch and encounters were mostly surprise ambushes.

[thethird]

Not picking on you unseenmage, I just felt that I could expand a little on some of your quotes for context.

That said, deny an Artificer gold, experience, or time and they're much less powerful.

All classes need gold and experience to overcome greater challenges it is baked on the normal process of leveling up and denying those is kind of changing the goals of the game.

Time wise, eventually an artificer can circumvent the time cost. By not spending time himself.

And it's often table variance similar to the above that can make or break the 'overpowredness' of an Artificer.

On the flipside, being denied markets mattered little when the adventure was on a time crunch and encounters were mostly surprise ambushes.

Totally agree on the first point. On the second that is, again, a pain to everyone on the party, not just the artificer. I would even say that it is more of a pain to the fighter than the artificer because even in those scenarios the artificer has more tools at his disposal.

What damages the most to the artificer, imho, is limiting greatly the sources from where the artificer player can pull. Most of the artificer's power comes from cherry picking the right tool for the job. It also takes some system mastery to be able to pick the best cherries.

Wizard is probably better than Artificer if they are limited to what's on the PHB and the Eberron Handbook, but with all books on the table I would be betting on the (Psionic) Artificer any time of the day.

[unseenmage]

Not picking on you unseenmage, I just felt that I could expand a little on some of your quotes for context.



All classes need gold and experience to overcome greater challenges it is baked on the normal process of leveling up and denying those is kind of changing the goals of the game.

Time wise, eventually an artificer can circumvent the time cost. By not spending time himself.



Totally agree on the first point. On the second that is, again, a pain to everyone on the party, not just the artificer. I would even say that it is more of a pain to the fighter than the artificer because even in those scenarios the artificer has more tools at his disposal.

What damages the most to the artificer, imho, is limiting greatly the sources from where the artificer player can pull. Most of the artificer's power comes from cherry picking the right tool for the job. It also takes some system mastery to be able to pick the best cherries.

Wizard is probably better than Artificer if they are limited to what's on the PHB and the Eberron Handbook, but with all books on the table I would be betting on the (Psionic) Artificer any time of the day.

I appreciate your input.


As far as the ambushes, our party was artificer, initiator, soul melder, and warlock. My infusions took minutes to cast and we only ever had rounds to prep, if that.
I often was left plinking with the crossbow. The Eberron artificer is also assumed to have access to action points too. Our game didn't have them, and I felt their lack.



As for the tripod of gp/xp/time I agree that all characters need these things to varying degrees but for a crafter they are a necessity.

Gp can be limited by low wealth games or even by denying the players somewhere to spend it or by, as you said, limiting what it can be spent on.

Xp is only a river in games that reward such, some tables just reward levels at appropriate points. Though if xp can be bought that helps some.

Time is the clincher for me. Without downtime to craft artificers suffer a practical loss if class abilities, and feats if the downtime isn't discussed before play starts. Also, the best infusions take minutes to cast, ambushes deny that prep time.

[gkathellar]

I appreciate your input.


As far as the ambushes, our party was artificer, initiator, soul melder, and warlock. My infusions took minutes to cast and we only ever had rounds to prep, if that.
I often was left plinking with the crossbow. The Eberron artificer is also assumed to have access to action points too. Our game didn't have them, and I felt their lack.



As for the tripod of gp/xp/time I agree that all characters need these things to varying degrees but for a crafter they are a necessity.

Gp can be limited by low wealth games or even by denying the players somewhere to spend it or by, as you said, limiting what it can be spent on.

Xp is only a river in games that reward such, some tables just reward levels at appropriate points. Though if xp can be bought that helps some.

Time is the clincher for me. Without downtime to craft artificers suffer a practical loss if class abilities, and feats if the downtime isn't discussed before play starts. Also, the best infusions take minutes to cast, ambushes deny that prep time.

This handbook for non-crafting artificers may be of interest to you (and the OP). The class is crazy strong in general.

[unseenmage]

This handbook for non-crafting artificers may be of interest to you (and the OP). The class is crazy strong in general.

Wish I'd known about that way back when. Thanks for the link.

[Mato]

Can anyone here illuminate me on why my dude would think so?

Like most people he probably based his opinion on the erroneous forum feedback. It happens a lot on here.

Just remind him that WBL prevents players from using rings of wish for every solution, item creation is intentionally useless and the DMG/MiC says there is no such thing as magic item scarcity and players should find what they want. Then as he struggles to find some kind of groundwork to base his claim on tell him to present to you an example of an artificer creating a wand of a useful 1st level spell. Like instant search or nerveskitter.

Now it's important to make him do the actual leg work, don't just tell him. He needs to discover it him self. But so you know what he'll find is that his artificer will have to be level 6, which is when it obtains craft wand, and it you paid any attention to the artificer's item creation you'll know he must use a caster level of 6 to create the wand so it costs like 4,500gp (wizards can do it at lv5 for 750gp).

And when you get into actually trying to break, or "cheese" things, artificers don't even have knowledge(religion) as a class skill. A morally ambiguous bard can slap a cow with fox's cunning and sacrifice them for free experience points and gold for crafting purposes. He's also a lot more likely to convince the conclave of silverymoon that he is wizard so after a maximum tuition of 4,000gp he can access every single item creation feat ever printed without having to actually take the feat. Instead of being a dedicated class that will never be a decent item creator, you have all the power of free item creation on top of being an awesome rockstar.

Then while you have him on the ropes and he desperately tries squeezing in some kind of moving the goal post cherry picked example while trying to side track you with strawman red herrings centered ad hominem attacks on who is the false authority. Remind him that by "RAW" a 1st level commoner can use a gold piece as the raw materials to create three more gold pieces and does a better job breaking wealth by level than the artificer does. Then throw a piece of popcorn into his O shaped mouth when he goes slack jacked in awe at your knowledge and experience.

Then in game introduce a BBEG sorcerer who used planar binding to summon efreeti to wish his magical supplies into existence. He's not even a real wizard but the menial task of crafting items is still below him.

[Telonius]

Now it's important to make him do the actual leg work, don't just tell him. He needs to discover it him self. But so you know what he'll find is that his artificer will have to be level 6, which is when it obtains craft wand, and it you paid any attention to the artificer's item creation you'll know he must use a caster level of 6 to create the wand so it costs like 4,500gp (wizards can do it at lv5 for 750gp).

I think what you're talking about there is in this paragraph:

For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher). Thus, a 3rd-level artificer can make a scroll of fireball, since the minimum caster level for fireball is 5th. He pays the normal cost for making such a scroll with a caster level of 5th: 5 X 3 X 12.5 = 187 gp and 5 sp, plus 15 XP. But the scroll's actual caster level is only 3rd, and it produces a weak fireball that deals only 3d6 points of damage.

Emphasis added. The Artificer's caster level is only at +2 for purposes of meeting prerequisites; meaning the Artificer can create that (lower-CL) Fireball scroll two levels earlier than the Wizard. The sentence, "Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher)," means that the Artificer needs to spend at least the amount of resources a regular 5th-level caster would spend making the scroll; he can't get a discount for making it at CL3 instead of CL5. This needs to be specified because of the over-arching magic item creation rule:

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level.

If that phrasing weren't there, the Artificer would be required to simultaneously set the caster level at 3rd (can't set it at 5th because it would be higher than his own caster level) and at 5th (can't set it at 3rd because that would be too low to cast the spell).

The overarching rule also means that once the Artificer is past the regular level required to create the item he can lower it down to the minimum, as usual. Specific does trump general, but in this case the specific is only referring to prerequisites and being able to create the thing at all.

[Mato]

Specific does trump general

Yes, the artificer's specific rules about how it's able to create magic items trumps the general rules of how most spellcasters are able to create them. It's funny that you would try to suggest otherwise and your post serves as a wonderful example of why the OP's friend might struggle with this.

I can try to help you understand it through. A paragraph talks about one subject which in this case is about how the class that doesn't cast spells and isn't a spellcaster is able to count as a spellcaster for item creation. And the two independent and complete sentences you are trying to merge together help explain part of this. As the word always explains, at all times and on all occasions you are to determine the cost using the highest of either the minimal CL or the artificer's actual level. This is an absolute that includes any possible choices. So for example if a 16th level artificer wanted to create a wand of fireball with a CL of 9 the cost is still based on his sixteen levels of artificer.

The example even confirms this. The third level artificer creates a scroll with a caster level of three however as the spell's minimum CL is higher than his actual artificer level, he must treat the cost of creation as if it had a CL of 5 even through the scroll clearly doesn't that CL. He is paying the cost of a CL5 item to create an item with a of CL3. The item's actual caster level, and it doesn't matter of the artificer chooses the default value or some other one which is where you are trying to over empathize, is completely independent of how you must figure the cost of it.

[Quertus]

Wait, what? The Artificer is actually explicitly and uniquely bad at creating items?

[RoboEmperor]

What up vanilla faces...

I was told by one of my gaming dudes, that an Artificer can be crazy strong, like real OP. I looked up the class... didn't get it. So, where else to go, than the one and only cheese shop in town... The GitP Fora...

Anywho, I fail to see how this class is OP! Can anyone here illuminate me on why my dude would think so?


Cheers!

Early access to high level spells.

Concurrent Infusions (4th level Infusion) lets you cast Spell-Storing Item for free (1st level Infusion) which lets you cast any 4th level spell or lower in the game from any class. So at 8th level Artificer can cast Planar Binding (6th level spell) or Summon Giants (8th level spell). Out of combat Divine Insight (2nd level spell) for +15 to a single skill check and Guidance of the Avatar (2nd level spell) for a +20 to a single skill check.

Divine Crusader is a PrC that gets every single domain spell at lower caster level. 9th level spells are CL9. 8th level spells are CL8. etc. This means Divine Crusaders can create CL9 Scrolls of Wish which means at level 7 an Artificer can craft a scroll of wish.

Wish can create Magic Items
Golems are Magic Items
Mithral Golem (CR21 Epic Creature) costs 5,000xp to make
So in conclusion, for 5,000xp x 2 + 5,000xp = 15,000xp you can create a Mithral Golem at level 7.

Or use Wish to create Permanent Runes (at-will magic item) of 9th level spells like Summon Elemental Monolith or Hunters of Hades (10min/level summon spell) and just annihilate the campaign with an army of (10) Elemental Monoliths with a Permanent Rune of Sonorous Hum or (1700) Retrievers. That's not a typo, you can have 1700 Retrievers following you. Or a Permanent Rune of Time Stop for at-will Time Stop. These cost 29,786xp (7,706xp for sonorous hum) each to make but since XP is a river, it's trivial to amass this much xp while you stay 7-8th level forever and spam Planar Binding to destroy the game.

At 5th level you can create a Phylactery of Change and a Scroll of Lesser Holy Transformation.
1. Grab the Assume Supernatural Ability feat and select the Ravid's Animate Objects (Su) ability.
2. Use the Scroll of Lesser Holy Transformation to turn yourself into an outsider.
3. Use the Phyalctery of Change to turn into a Ravid indefinitely.
4. Use your at-will CL20 Animate Object to perpetually animate a Gargantuan Animated Object to start destroying the game at level 5.

[ATHATH]

Like most people he probably based his opinion on the erroneous forum feedback. It happens a lot on here.

Just remind him that WBL prevents players from using rings of wish for every solution, item creation is intentionally useless and the DMG/MiC says there is no such thing as magic item scarcity and players should find what they want. Then as he struggles to find some kind of groundwork to base his claim on tell him to present to you an example of an artificer creating a wand of a useful 1st level spell. Like instant search or nerveskitter.

Now it's important to make him do the actual leg work, don't just tell him. He needs to discover it him self. But so you know what he'll find is that his artificer will have to be level 6, which is when it obtains craft wand, and it you paid any attention to the artificer's item creation you'll know he must use a caster level of 6 to create the wand so it costs like 4,500gp (wizards can do it at lv5 for 750gp).

And when you get into actually trying to break, or "cheese" things, artificers don't even have knowledge(religion) as a class skill. A morally ambiguous bard can slap a cow with fox's cunning and sacrifice them for free experience points and gold for crafting purposes. He's also a lot more likely to convince the conclave of silverymoon that he is wizard so after a maximum tuition of 4,000gp he can access every single item creation feat ever printed without having to actually take the feat. Instead of being a dedicated class that will never be a decent item creator, you have all the power of free item creation on top of being an awesome rockstar.

Then while you have him on the ropes and he desperately tries squeezing in some kind of moving the goal post cherry picked example while trying to side track you with strawman red herrings centered ad hominem attacks on who is the false authority. Remind him that by "RAW" a 1st level commoner can use a gold piece as the raw materials to create three more gold pieces and does a better job breaking wealth by level than the artificer does. Then throw a piece of popcorn into his O shaped mouth when he goes slack jacked in awe at your knowledge and experience.

Then in game introduce a BBEG sorcerer who used planar binding to summon efreeti to wish his magical supplies into existence. He's not even a real wizard but the menial task of crafting items is still below him.

This all, of course, assumes that you're playing an Artificer that actually crafts things.

I believe someone posted a link to this handbook earlier in this thread, but it bears reposting: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-the-Artifice

In short, you don't even need to craft to be a strong Artificer. Which is a good thing, since, as pointed out above me, depending on how your DM rules things, Artificers can be worse at crafting than other classes. If certain ambiguous things are ruled in your favor, however, you can craft some really nice stuff (and use it in near-unique ways) without needing to invest loads of feats into crafting feats, rely on NPCs that you haven't personally made yourself (*cough* dedicated wrights *cough*), or dip as deep into the "universal cheese" pool (borderline-TO stuff that pretty much anyone can do, regardless of their class (like buying and using candles of invocation, using the 1 GP->3 GP trick, using the BoVD sacrifice rules, etc.)) as characters of some other classes might need to in order to replicate your abilities. I will admit that that "minimizing dipping into the universal cheese pool" thing kind of sounds like/is moving the goalposts, but what I'm trying to say is this: Just because (almost) any Commoner can pick up a candle of invocation and begin a wish loop doesn't mean that Wizards are weak because they can't replicate that PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER as easily as a Commoner with a candle of invocation can.

Am I making any cohesive logical argument here? I have a bad feeling that I'm just declaring any cheese that's not/better than my cheese as being "too cheesy", then declaring my cheese to be the best because it's the best cheese that I haven't designated as "too cheesy". Does the existence of "degrees of cheese" that's not just TO vs. PO but also not just "anything that counters my argument/my build is too strong and thus banned" make any sense? Am I just sort of rambling/going insane here? Am I turning into Lord Drako? Do I need more sleep?

[icefractal]

Yes, the artificer's specific rules about how it's able to create magic items trumps the general rules of how most spellcasters are able to create them.
...

Does anyone actually take stances like this in an actual campaign? I know that if I was planning on playing an Artificer, and the response was "Well if you interpret it in this particular way, they're worse at crafting than anyone else ..." I'd say if they don't want Artificers they should just ban them. It's about on par with seriously making Monks are non-proficient with unarmed strikes, IMO.

WBL as a strict law of nature and automatic item availability has its place, but it's a very different type of campaign than most out there. Because, for example, whether you find treasure or not doesn't matter in that case. Anything having to do with money at all doesn't. It works fine if that's your intent, but I don't think you can really consider it the "standard" way to play.

Although ...
If WBL was actually enforced that way, Artificers would be pretty good. Wands get auto-replaced in that scenario, so you can burn through them like candy.

[thethird]

I appreciate your input.


As far as the ambushes, our party was artificer, initiator, soul melder, and warlock. My infusions took minutes to cast and we only ever had rounds to prep, if that.
I often was left plinking with the crossbow. The Eberron artificer is also assumed to have access to action points too. Our game didn't have them, and I felt their lack.



As for the tripod of gp/xp/time I agree that all characters need these things to varying degrees but for a crafter they are a necessity.

Gp can be limited by low wealth games or even by denying the players somewhere to spend it or by, as you said, limiting what it can be spent on.

Xp is only a river in games that reward such, some tables just reward levels at appropriate points. Though if xp can be bought that helps some.

Time is the clincher for me. Without downtime to craft artificers suffer a practical loss if class abilities, and feats if the downtime isn't discussed before play starts. Also, the best infusions take minutes to cast, ambushes deny that prep time.

EDIT: Actually before turning the game into an arm race with the DM I would have made sure he was okay with me playing an artificer in such adverse conditions that inherently push me towards an optimization stage that might not be palatable to the game. If the answer was along the lines of "yes" then I would...

Given the conditions I would have made sure to have played a human artificer, with the mark of making, summon marked homunculus is a very good infusion to have available in that particular scenario.

XP being at appropriate points is a pain, yes, but the artificer is the only crafter that can work on those conditions. They have the craft reserve, in that scenario feats that reduce the xp cost are more valuable because "xp" is more limited. Feats that reduce cost are also worth it in that scenario, you can pick your share of the loot on "useless" items and cannibalize them.

As for time constraints at level 3 you can craft a quill of scribbling, that pops a scroll a day. At level 4 you can get a dedicated wright, which can work on any other item you need. It would require having a base or a extradimensional space where they can work in, but if it benefits the party it is an easy sell. The warlock and the soul melder (i am assuming incarnate) have potential access to UMD and scrolls can be of great benefit. Those ambushers won't know what hit them when the wall of stone (trapsmith, 3rd lvl spell) start popping up. Suddenly you are ambushing them. (Or coral growth, druid, 3rd lvl spell if your dm frowns at using trapsmith)

This handbook for non-crafting artificers may be of interest to you (and the OP). The class is crazy strong in general.

That was a very good guide.

[unseenmage]

EDIT: Actually before turning the game into an arm race with the DM I would have made sure he was okay with me playing an artificer in such adverse conditions that inherently push me towards an optimization stage that might not be palatable to the game. If the answer was along the lines of "yes" then I would...

Given the conditions I would have made sure to have played a human artificer, with the mark of making, summon marked homunculus is a very good infusion to have available in that particular scenario.

XP being at appropriate points is a pain, yes, but the artificer is the only crafter that can work on those conditions. They have the craft reserve, in that scenario feats that reduce the xp cost are more valuable because "xp" is more limited. Feats that reduce cost are also worth it in that scenario, you can pick your share of the loot on "useless" items and cannibalize them.

As for time constraints at level 3 you can craft a quill of scribbling, that pops a scroll a day. At level 4 you can get a dedicated wright, which can work on any other item you need. It would require having a base or a extradimensional space where they can work in, but if it benefits the party it is an easy sell. The warlock and the soul melder (i am assuming incarnate) have potential access to UMD and scrolls can be of great benefit. Those ambushers won't know what hit them when the wall of stone (trapsmith, 3rd lvl spell) start popping up. Suddenly you are ambushing them. (Or coral growth, druid, 3rd lvl spell if your dm frowns at using trapsmith)

...

Planned to build the quill, never got that far.

And it was a Goblin artificer, almost zero optimization. The reverse actually. Was supposed to be an alchemy focused little dude. I'll often hamstring a tier 1 class with one of my janky ideas so that cosmic power is a backup plan.

After gameplay got rolling my equipment list got pruned and my Shapesand got banned (was going to use it to make DMG2 booby traps).
GM also decided that cleaning or repairing the tattered robes from a destroyed undead was impossible for prestidigitation and/or mending only AFTER I'd cast Spell Storing Infusion and paid the xp cost.
Thing is it wasn't an adversarial relationship per se, we both just had very different ideas about what was important.
Leaving my character naked was apperantly just that important to him.
(had died and been reincarnated as an aquatic elf, so gained a size category and tore his clothes, which apparantly took as long to resize as armor)

Game never made it past level seven. The roleplay was delightful though, so I still categorize that game as a success for the most part.

Even with the game's particulars it still evidenced an Alchemist's need for time and crafting resources since as I was role playing and alchemy-ing I was also trying to use up craft reserve before I leveled and picked the "best" infusions I could find.
(Mundane crafting and magical crafting can happen concurrently in the same day.)

Did have the Dedicated Wright and the GM did throw me a bone and let it survive my death since I came right back to life.

[Max Caysey]

Part of what can make an artificer so strong is also the early access to wish crafting. All they need to do is hit a DC 37 umd check and it's shenanigans aplenty.
Also add in the alternate methods to pay for crafting xp from the wotc web article, and now your simulacrums, ice assassin's, and persisted extended body outside body clones can now be used as xp batteries.(to bad the clones can only be used on items that take two days or less to make. Which is about every scroll.)
Thought bottles are great early on, but not as good as no loss whatsoever.

And as mentioned the versatility. Almost literally having any spell needed in your back pocket can trivialize so much.

But would that not entail having access to a scroll of wish

Early access to high level spells.

Concurrent Infusions (4th level Infusion) lets you cast Spell-Storing Item for free (1st level Infusion) which lets you cast any 4th level spell or lower in the game from any class. So at 8th level Artificer can cast Planar Binding (6th level spell) or Summon Giants (8th level spell). Out of combat Divine Insight (2nd level spell) for +15 to a single skill check and Guidance of the Avatar (2nd level spell) for a +20 to a single skill check.

Divine Crusader is a PrC that gets every single domain spell at lower caster level. 9th level spells are CL9. 8th level spells are CL8. etc. This means Divine Crusaders can create CL9 Scrolls of Wish which means at level 7 an Artificer can craft a scroll of wish.

I don't get this... Why would you be able to cast higher level spell than 4th which is the limit of Spell Storing Item infusion? Furhtermore, a divine crusader, doesn't gain access to level 9 spells earlier than level 10, meaning a total character level of 17. So again, I cant see how this should be possible?

Wish can create Magic Items
Golems are Magic Items
Mithral Golem (CR21 Epic Creature) costs 5,000xp to make
So in conclusion, for 5,000xp x 2 + 5,000xp = 15,000xp you can create a Mithral Golem at level 7.

I don't understand why you need to pay more than 5k xp here, since thats the cost of the spell... why the extra 10k?

Or use Wish to create Permanent Runes (at-will magic item) of 9th level spells like Summon Elemental Monolith or Hunters of Hades (10min/level summon spell) and just annihilate the campaign with an army of (10) Elemental Monoliths with a Permanent Rune of Sonorous Hum or (1700) Retrievers. That's not a typo, you can have 1700 Retrievers following you. Or a Permanent Rune of Time Stop for at-will Time Stop. These cost 29,786xp (7,706xp for sonorous hum) each to make but since XP is a river, it's trivial to amass this much xp while you stay 7-8th level forever and spam Planar Binding to destroy the game.

Well. If they are made by wish... is it not just 5k per casting of wish? I'm unsure of your calculations here?

At 5th level you can create a Phylactery of Change and a Scroll of Lesser Holy Transformation.
1. Grab the Assume Supernatural Ability feat and select the Ravid's Animate Objects (Su) ability.
2. Use the Scroll of Lesser Holy Transformation to turn yourself into an outsider.
3. Use the Phyalctery of Change to turn into a Ravid indefinitely.
4. Use your at-will CL20 Animate Object to perpetually animate a Gargantuan Animated Object to start destroying the game at level 5.

This is actually pretty cool... Not that I would use that level of optimization, but still pretty darn cool!


There is a lot of things I don't fully grasp in the above... any further explanations would be great!

Cheers!

[RoboEmperor]

I don't get this... Why would you be able to cast higher level spell than 4th which is the limit of Spell Storing Item infusion? Furhtermore, a divine crusader, doesn't gain access to level 9 spells earlier than level 10, meaning a total character level of 17. So again, I cant see how this should be possible?

Planar Binding is normally a 6th level spell. But...
The PrC Demonologist has Planar Binding as a 4th level spell! So Artificers can replicate the Demonologist's Planar Binding with Spell Storing Item infusion because for that PrC it's a 4th level spell and Artificers can cast any 4th level spell from any class.

Summon Giants is normally an 8th level spell. But...
The PrC Disciple of Thrym has Summon Giants as a 4th level spell! So Artificers can replicate the Disciple of Thrym's Summon Giants with Spell Storing Item because for that PrC it's a 4th level spell and Artificers can cast any 4th level spell from any class.

http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/in...?topic=12661.0
This guide has most of the spells that can be cast at a lower spell level thanks to PrCs.

I don't understand why you need to pay more than 5k xp here, since thats the cost of the spell... why the extra 10k?

To create a Magic Item with Wish you need to pay x2 the xp cost to create that item. So if a Scroll costs 153xp to scribe, it will cost you 5,000xp (Wish) + 153xp x 2 = 5,306xp.
Mithral Golems costs 250,000gp, 5,000xp, Caster Level 25, and the Create Epic Magical Arms and Armor feat. Since we're creating a Mithral Golem with Wish we ignore everything except the XP cost, and double it. So it will cost 5,000xp (Wish) + 5,000xp (Mithral Golem) x 2 + 153xp x 2 (Scroll) = 15,306xp to scribe a Scroll of Wish that is capable of creating a Mithral Golem.

Well. If they are made by wish... is it not just 5k per casting of wish? I'm unsure of your calculations here?

You should read Wish's spell description.

XP Cost

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

This is actually pretty cool... Not that I would use that level of optimization, but still pretty darn cool!

I did this in a real game and I broke it. Nothing the DM threw at me challenged me and I trivialized all his boss fights by grappling the thing to death. So yeah, don't really do it, but you said you wanted to cheese the heck out of an artificer, and this is super strong cheese.

For more cheese, when you craft those scrolls of Wish at level 7, use Liquid Pain to reduce the xp cost by 3xp per dose. So if you have 100,000 doses you can reduce your Scroll of Wish's xp cost by 300,000xp. To get Liquid Pain
1. Get an animal
2. Cast Contagion on it so it's in pain.
3. Cast Liquid Pain to get 1 dose of Liquid Pain
4. Planar Bind a Rejkar (Monster Manual III)
5. Have the Rejkar spam its at-will Fabricate on Liquid Pain. If he beats a DC25 Craft Alchemy check he can triple the amount of Liquid Pain you have so cast infusions and spells that boost his Craft Alchemy to +15 so he always hits that DC when he takes 10.

This maybe a little confusing but

Material Component

The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.

Raw Materials cost 1/3 of the final product. So if you have 1/3 dose of Liquid Pain, you can fabricate it into a full dose. If you hae a full dose of Liquid Pain, you can fabricate it into 3 doses since 3 doses' raw material cost is 1/3 of 3 doses so it's 1 dose. And then you cast it again and again for infinite crafting xp.

Anyways this is why Artificers are the most powerful class in the entire game. Free Wishes at level 7. Access to high level spells at lower levels thanks to PrCs who have those high levle spells at lower spell levels. Artificers don't need to adventure to become powerful, they just need downtime. Give an artificer a year by themselves and they can destroy the world.

[RoboEmperor]

I forgot to mention your concern with Divine Crusader.

Divine Crusader's level doesn't matter. Only their CASTER LEVEL matters. A 16th level Divine Crusader has 9th level spells, but only a caster level of 9. This means when they create a scroll of Time Stop (for example), it will only have a caster level of 9.

Artificers can create any magic item 2 caster levels lower than what they require. Since Divine Crusader's Scroll of Time Stop has a Caster Level of 9 Artificers can create them at level 7.

[Doctor Awkward]

and it you paid any attention to the artificer's item creation you'll know he must use a caster level of 6 to create the wand so it costs like 4,500gp (wizards can do it at lv5 for 750gp).

As the word always explains, at all times and on all occasions you are to determine the cost using the highest of either the minimal CL or the artificer's actual level.

No.

Just... holy hell.

Just ****ing no.

As the paragraph in which that sentence appears states, that sentence is specifically and solely applied when an artificer is creating a magic item that duplicates a spell and his actual class level would be too low to normally do so. As the example clearly states, when creating a scroll of fireball at level 3 (which normally requires a caster level 5), you would calculate costs using the minimum caster level necessary to cast the fireball spell, which is 5. And since his actual level is 3 he thus he churns out only a 3rd-level scroll.

You can tell this because the first paragraph of the Item Creation class features specifically makes mention of a non-specific artificer creating a 1st-level wand of magic missile, which, if your interpretation was correct, would be impossible to do past level 1.

This claim is easily in the Top 3 Most Willful Misreadings of RAW I have ever seen.

Of all time.

[magicalmagicman]

No.

Just... holy hell.

Just ****ing no.

As the paragraph in which that sentence appears states, that sentence is specifically and solely applied when an artificer is creating a magic item that duplicates a spell and his actual class level would be too low to normally do so. As the example clearly states, when creating a scroll of fireball at level 3 (which normally requires a caster level 5), you would calculate costs using the minimum caster level necessary to cast the fireball spell, which is 5. And since his actual level is 3 he thus he churns out only a 3rd-level scroll.

You can tell this because the first paragraph of the Item Creation class features specifically makes mention of a non-specific artificer creating a 1st-level wand of magic missile, which, if your interpretation was correct, would be impossible to do past level 1.

This claim is easily in the Top 3 Most Willful Misreadings of RAW I have ever seen.

Of all time.

Check out post #66 and #67 from this thread:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ething-AMAZING!

You're talking to a guy who did not know Clerics get 3 turn undead charges at level 1 with 0 charisma modifier and then tells other people to buy the rulebooks on ebay and read it when clearly he hasn't read any of it himself
You're talking to a guy who doesn't read the first post if a thread and then just spews a bunch of hate on others.

I checked his other posts from other threads and he is wrong 100% of the time and is a hate spewing rude **** 100% of the time so it's best if you just ignore what he says. He's worse than Darth Ultron. I mean, what can you expect from someone who has no idea what he's talking about yet acts like he knows everything and is condescending towards others who actually did read the rules and provide correct information?

He didn't willfully misread RAW, he just didn't read it at all and made it all up. And as you can tell he is completely wrong because that's what he does. Doesn't read, make stuff up, and insults others.

[Jack_Simth]

Do I need more sleep?

The general answer is "most people do" or maybe "if you have to ask, yes." I'm unsure on the rest.

[Mato]

Concurrent Infusions (4th level Infusion) lets you cast Spell-Storing Item for free (1st level Infusion) which lets you cast any 4th level spell or lower in the game from any class.

No it doesn't.

The infusions function exactly as if you had cast them on the object, and do not count against your daily allotment.

You can imbue any spell of 4th level or lower into the item, as long as its spell level is no greater than one-half your artificer level. Your artificer level is the spell’s caster level.
XP Cost: Your caster level × the spell level. For example, to place a scorching ray spell in an item, you must spend XP equal to your caster level × 2.

The infusion is very much aware of the difference between the caster level and your artificer level. And if your artificer level, not caster level, isn't 8th level or higher, you cannot use spell storing item to imbue 4th level spells.

This all, of course, assumes that you're playing an Artificer that actually crafts things.

Buffing role works great for others, but not your self if you have nothing to use it with. A metamagic wand grip from complete mage costs 6,000gp and gives you the same TO damage possibilities a 7th artificer's metamagic spell trigger does and anyone can buy a homunculus or use a crossbow. Most infusions take a minute to cast which makes the artificer dependent on action points if he wants to do anything in battle and that puts him behind even the most moderately played wizard who leaves a spell slot or two open in the morning so they can fill it later.

If RoboEmperor decides to post complaining he doesn't understand how spell storing item works (he clearly doesn't know golems are not magic items), this is a thread talking about cheesy play. So you can just take his wooden 2x4 of a point and buy a minor schema of metamagic item for 6,000gp and a minor schema of spell storing item for 400gp for the factotum to replicate the entire party buffing role of an artificer without anyone using the class. Actually, since both extend and persist spell don't require spellcasting. Might as well make the fighter pay for it, he doesn't need another magical weapon anyway.

As the example clearly states, when creating a scroll of fireball at level 3 (which normally requires a caster level 5), you would calculate costs using the minimum caster level necessary to cast the fireball spell, which is 5.

Yes. That's because the "costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher)." and the minimum level of 5 is higher than the artificer's actual level of 3. I think you're slowing getting it, you just have to figure out that you're creating an exception that isn't there when one number exceeds the other and you'll have it.

I believe it's an intended method of balance, like how spell storing item is keyed off your artificer level instead of caster level. The artificer has a craft reserve that offsets this increased cost, but it specifically prevents you from trying to horde more 1st level wands than another class would. So the artificer has a wider selection of tools, but less of them. A dynamic that's repeated hundreds of times in the rule books.

You're talking to a guy who did not know Clerics get 3 turn undead charges at level 1.

Oh I love that thread. I made a math mistake which was humbling and yet I still managed to post a method that out did everything you recycled from someone else's post. Well it's nice to see that you'll jump into threads to post Ad hominem attacks and your main strategy of debating is still poisoning the well. And it's also nice how Sleven ended it trying to say my cleric example doesn't even need any feats to accomplish the trick too.

I have a question for you though, are you Robo and using two accounts?

[Doctor Awkward]

Yes. That's because the "costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher)." and the minimum level of 5 is higher than the artificer's actual level of 3.

...When the artificer is creating an item that duplicates the effect of a spell and his actual level is not high enough level to do so.

You keep leaving that part out like context doesn't matter. It does.

I think you're slowing getting it, you just have to figure out that you're creating an exception that isn't there when one number exceeds the other and you'll have it.

That's not an exception. It's a clarification.

It's telling you that items are always priced based on the minimum caster level normally required, despite the fact that the lower-leveled artificer produces an inferior effect.

Not everything that appears in the rules is an exception to something else. Sometimes they are just explaining things.

And believe me, I get it.
You are insinuating that the authors worded the class feature poorly, and under a strict RAW created an unintended side-effect of making the artificer the worst item crafter in D&D by at all times requiring him to create items at the highest possible caster level that he can.

The problem with this interpretation is that it requires you to parse out that sentence devoid of the context in which it appears, and that's not how the rules are ever intended to be read.

I believe it's an intended method of balance, like how spell storing item is keyed off your artificer level instead of caster level. The artificer has a craft reserve that offsets this increased cost, but it specifically prevents you from trying to horde more 1st level wands than another class would. So the artificer has a wider selection of tools, but less of them. A dynamic that's repeated hundreds of times in the rule books.

You can believe that all you want but the rules don't care about your beliefs.

What you are doing is deciding ahead of time how you think the rules should be read and contorting the rest of the text to match your preconceived notion, when what you should be doing is instead picking a different interpretation that more closely matches what the text actually says. All of the text. Not just the parts that if you squint hard enough could possibly be looked at in such a way as to support your faulty assertion.

[Aharon]

"costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher)."

I believe the RAI is clear here - there's no reason why a class whose main shtick is creating magic items should be worse at it than other casters.

But if we do get nitpicky with the RAW, this is an "OR" statement. It means that the artificer can't choose levels other than the item's minimum level or his actual level. So if he's level 10, he can make a wand of fireball at CL 5 or at CL 10, but not at caster levels in between.
To have the meaning Mato reads in it, the sentence would have to be "costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level, unless the artificer's actual level is higher, in which case the artificer's actual level is always used."

And to add to the general cheesing:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=30

also, Mage Slayer Artificer cheese...

[Ruethgar]

Make NI scrolls of Sanctum Create Element(spell level -1 so free) for Stones of Anihilation at level 1. Kill everything alive with DC 40 fort save that has a 50% chance to destroy their soul.

Make Black Sand instead and watch the world die from being unable to get that last grain off everything you Gust of Wind past. Make temporal sand for a similar effect that doesn’t multiply, but still, have you ever tried to get sand out of EVERYTHING after going to the beach? You’d be taking that 1d4 non-lethal for a long time since Prestidigitation can’t target you.

Sure any sorcerer, cleric or shmuck with a few feats could do the same and get the same book thrown at their head, but hey, Artificers can do it too!