Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Silfir]

Troll wizards actually do pretty well. Wizards are basically unstoppable juggernauts of arcane power, whose only weakness is that they keel over from a paper cut. Add troll to the equation, and you fix the paper cut issue while retaining almost all of the arcane power. You find tons of spellbook anyway, so high Learning isn't strictly necessary. Granted, Mana is more important than it used to be before the HP casting nerf.

For beginners I would generally recommend high elven archers. The earlier they learn how to use missiles (and how great they are), the better.

I don't think you can recommend just a race by itself, when it comes down to it. Trolls in particular because of the hunger thing - food tends to be a big headache for beginners. Class is the big issue.

[Maryring]

Except race determines the beginning. Which is what really matters to a novice. You need levels before class powers start to come online, and if you can reliably get to level 12, then you're no longer really a novice. But for the first few tries, you want to feel useful and feel like you've got a shot. And that's where race plays a huge part, as it determines starting stats and equipment. So not only can you make recommendations on race, Troll Wizard only works because the race itself covers for the early game weakness, and not from any synergy. And it's a terrible recommendation for a beginner because a beginner selecting a wizard picks a wizard expecting to be a frail old sage slinging arcane destruction from afar, not playing a muscle wizard casting Mighty Fist.

So yeah. I want suggestions on a race for a beginner. I'm leaning between Drakeling for inherent Alertness, and Troll for that thick beef. There's plenty of food in the village.

[Cespenar]

I'd suggest Drakeling, Orc or Dwarf for a newbie over Troll, actually. They still have beef (though less than a Troll) but what they don't have is that hunger issue. I've seen too many newbie deaths just from not being able to keep the food logistics going.

[Kaptin Keen]

Troll farmer might be good. Be a troll, have lots of food, go to the goblin camp, pick up a ton of rocks. Squish anything for many levels to come, no contest. Bring a few huge rocks because those break doors (I hear). Who needs alertness anyways =D

[Silfir]

Except race determines the beginning. Which is what really matters to a novice. You need levels before class powers start to come online, and if you can reliably get to level 12, then you're no longer really a novice. But for the first few tries, you want to feel useful and feel like you've got a shot. And that's where race plays a huge part, as it determines starting stats and equipment. So not only can you make recommendations on race, Troll Wizard only works because the race itself covers for the early game weakness, and not from any synergy. And it's a terrible recommendation for a beginner because a beginner selecting a wizard picks a wizard expecting to be a frail old sage slinging arcane destruction from afar, not playing a muscle wizard casting Mighty Fist.

I'm having trouble following the train of thought you're on in this post. If the beginning is what really matters, and trolls cover for the early game weakness of wizards, that makes them the best wizards, because now you have a character without any weaknesses. (Troll wizards can actually read their starting spellbooks and cast their spells, just like any wizard can. Mighty Fist is just the bonus.)

At any rate, class makes a lot more difference than race does. You want beginners to get far, recommend strong classes.

There's plenty of food in the village.

That hasn't stopped beginners from running into food issues for the entirety of ADOM's existence.

[Gnoman]

Minor ADOM issue. I've spent most of my time with the postcardware version, and bought the Steam version relatively recently. Getting rid of the ugly tiles was easy enough, but there's a bunch of hand-holdy notifications I can't manage to turn off. The gray text in this image is what I'm talking about.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ett7p91ul2...itled.png?dl=0

How do I disable this? I already know the controls, and this is really, really annoying.

[Silfir]

Go into your custom game settings and set "Quick_Hint_Limit" to zero.

[Gnoman]

Thanks. I assume they would have gone away eventually, but they were annoying.

[factotum]

This thread actually encouraged me to give roguelikes a go again, so I played Tales of Maj'Eyal last night. I actually had quite a bit of fun--I think the fact this game doesn't have "hunger" mechanics helps, and it also has a mostly mouse-driven graphical UI, which is so much better than the pure text-based ones. Will see how far I get.

[Kaptin Keen]

My psion died horribly last night. There was a teleport trap, which sent him into the midst of a whole slew of enemies, one of which had something seriously wrong with it. He got infected, and despite all the miracles of science he was lugging about, nothing would stop the virus eating him from the inside. He died, alone, lost, shivering, cold and confused. Poor guy.

Also, playing SotS:TP reminded me how much I hate crafting. It's a thing almost separate from myself, an entity in it's own right - a giant flaming pillar of undiluted loathing. God I hate crafting.

Otherwise fine game, SotS:TP =)

[Aeson]

It's been a while since I've played them, but I enjoyed Bionic Dues and The Enchanted Cave 2.

[Cespenar]

My psion died horribly last night. There was a teleport trap, which sent him into the midst of a whole slew of enemies, one of which had something seriously wrong with it. He got infected, and despite all the miracles of science he was lugging about, nothing would stop the virus eating him from the inside. He died, alone, lost, shivering, cold and confused. Poor guy.

Also, playing SotS:TP reminded me how much I hate crafting. It's a thing almost separate from myself, an entity in it's own right - a giant flaming pillar of undiluted loathing. God I hate crafting.

Otherwise fine game, SotS:TP =)

Ironically enough, I lost a psion to disease just a few days ago as well.

[Corlindale]

This thread actually encouraged me to give roguelikes a go again, so I played Tales of Maj'Eyal last night. I actually had quite a bit of fun--I think the fact this game doesn't have "hunger" mechanics helps, and it also has a mostly mouse-driven graphical UI, which is so much better than the pure text-based ones. Will see how far I get.

Good to hear, I hope you keep going! I found ToME a little bit tough to get into at first, but in my experience it just keeps improving as you delve further into it - especially once you start to unlock some of the more wacky classes (though even the basic Archer class is admittedly a ton of fun). As you say, I think the interface really helps make it accessible, since it's a customizable hotbar system that would be immediately familiar to anyone who has ever played, say, a mainstream MMORPG.

In other ToME news, I've heard the higher difficulties shoehorn you into specific classes and playstyles, so I've simply made it my personal goal to complete the game with every class on Normal difficulty. Only two down so far (I'm not actually very good at the game/roguelikes in general, as I tend to get careless), but I'm hopeful I can nail some more soon. My two victories were with

Spoiler: Minor spoiler about unlockable classes

Show

Paradox Mage and Oozemancer

Both extremely fun classes, despite playing very differently.

[Kaptin Keen]

Ironically enough, I lost a psion to disease just a few days ago as well.

It's propably symptomatic that when the mind is strong - it's the body that eventually fails. I mean ... sure, it's always the body that fails, but you know what I mean =)

[Cespenar]

It's propably symptomatic that when the mind is strong - it's the body that eventually fails. I mean ... sure, it's always the body that fails, but you know what I mean =)

Yeah, probably it's the poor might checks, combined with little to no anti disease starter items.

[factotum]

Good to hear, I hope you keep going! I found ToME a little bit tough to get into at first, but in my experience it just keeps improving as you delve further into it - especially once you start to unlock some of the more wacky classes (though even the basic Archer class is admittedly a ton of fun).

I've gone with a Dwarven Bulwark on the grounds they're probably quite good at surviving. I managed to take out the level 8 boss at the bottom of the Deep Bellows when I was only level 5, and I was never close to death, but I imagine it'll get tougher as I go.

[Thrantar]

Bulwarks are actually more of a cooldown gated burst class than a consistent tank, though they will have excellent weapon damage mitigation. The roles/playstyles of quite a few classes end up being rather unintuitive. For instance, the archmage is arguably the tankiest class in the game.

[tyckspoon]

I've gone with a Dwarven Bulwark on the grounds they're probably quite good at surviving. I managed to take out the level 8 boss at the bottom of the Deep Bellows when I was only level 5, and I was never close to death, but I imagine it'll get tougher as I go.

They'll typically survive far enough to learn more about the game, at least.. they're reliably good enough to get far enough to find out why they're not that good

(Short version, they're pretty great at surviving physical damage, but they don't have a lot of good tools for dealing with casting enemies that are far and away more dangerous, so if you're relying only on your class abilities and aren't familiar with using the game's general purpose survivability tools like Shield runes and Heroism infusions you'll probably find yourself getting blown up by almost off-screen lightning bolts.)

[factotum]

You might almost have been watching me earlier. Got crowded by lightning-throwing thingies (can't remember the name, starts with a G) and got fried pretty quickly. I'm now attempting things with an alchemist, because at least that way I have a meat shield in between me and the nasties!

[Maryring]

Had a promising troll get blown up by a vortex spawned as an artifact guard, which took me from full to 0 in one explosion.

Maybe I'll go back to ToME and try to actually finish that game properly.

[Kaptin Keen]

Had a promising troll get blown up by a vortex spawned as an artifact guard, which took me from full to 0 in one explosion.

Maybe I'll go back to ToME and try to actually finish that game properly.

As a what now? There are ... artifact guards?

I met a .. blue dragon, I seem to recall .. which took me from full to 1 hp. Which, all things considered, is infinitely better than being taken from full to no hitpoints =)

[Maryring]

Yeah. Sometimes there's a surge of power where an artifact is generated, and along with it an artifact guardian. Which is a monster that's tougher than normal. Usually it's not a big problem since it's just a regular monster with boosted stats. You can apply your regular tactics to defeat it as long as you're careful. But vortices can also spawn, and a regular vortex is already really painful if you've not found elemental resistances yet. Artifact guardian vortices laugh at your puny attempts to resist and just punch through with ovewhelming power.

[Anteros]

Had a promising troll get blown up by a vortex spawned as an artifact guard, which took me from full to 0 in one explosion.

Maybe I'll go back to ToME and try to actually finish that game properly.

You definitely should. ToME is the best of the roguelikes in my opinion. There's enough variety and RNG to keep things interesting, but it also tells you all the information you need to win up front rather than expecting you to die to random bull**** 4,000 times to learn the game. It's especially good after you win once and unlock the adventurer class.

Also talking about Roguelikes, I found out where all my luck in DCSS has been lately. Apparently I was saving it all up for my current run. I think every piece of gear I'm wearing is an artifact with +slaying as well as resistances. I have basically maxed resistances, +slaying somewhere in the 20s, and multiple artifact weapons with +10 enchantments. I just waltzed through the Hell realms with basically no difficulties. The orb run should be a breeze, assuming I don't do anything stupid or get incredibly unlucky. I'm probably going to try to finally get a 15 rune win before I go for it though. I'll never get drops this good again.

[tyckspoon]

You definitely should. ToME is the best of the roguelikes in my opinion. There's enough variety and RNG to keep things interesting, but it also tells you all the information you need to win up front rather than expecting you to die to random bull**** 4,000 times to learn the game. It's especially good after you win once and unlock the adventurer class.

.. I just noticed you double space after periods and now it's driving me nuts . There are some fairly surprising deaths in ToME, but a lot of it is learning basic aspects of the mindset of how the game is built - things like 'never start a fight without your cooldowns available and your resources/health at full', because the game is built around there being basically no actual consumables. So if you got into a tricky situation and couldn't Teleport out because the rune was on cooldown or you didn't think you needed to have a Teleport rune or a Movement infusion to run away with, well, that's your own problem, usually. (It's possible you Teleported out of one bad situation directly into another one.) The only things I think I would qualify as bull**** deaths are the optional zones that are especially dangerous (like Melissa's crypt, which has small zones, not much space to run away in, and is full of spellcasters) because the game doesn't really warn you that this is going to need particular caution and there's nowhere to run away to when you realize you're in over your head.

[factotum]

Well, another couple of characters dead--I seem to be generally OK getting through the two "easy" levels the game starts you with (apart from the elven one, that seems to be a struggle for some reason), but the difficulty definitely spikes after those and I've yet to survive one!

[tyckspoon]

Well, another couple of characters dead--I seem to be generally OK getting through the two "easy" levels the game starts you with (apart from the elven one, that seems to be a struggle for some reason), but the difficulty definitely spikes after those and I've yet to survive one!

The two 'human' dungeons (Trollmire and Kor'Pul') and one of the nature-elf ones (Norgos' Forest) are generally recommended as the starter dungeons. The magic-elf dungeons and the other nature-elf one are pretty rough, because ranged and casting enemies are really common there and most low-level classes don't have the tools they need to deal with them yet.. and in the case of the Cursed dungeon (forgot it's name, it's the other one near the nature-elf home city) it's really fond of dropping you in stair-traps where you enter the level in a big open room surrounded by like twelve enemies.

[Knaight]

Well, another couple of characters dead--I seem to be generally OK getting through the two "easy" levels the game starts you with (apart from the elven one, that seems to be a struggle for some reason), but the difficulty definitely spikes after those and I've yet to survive one!

The part where it tells you to go straight to the next tier of dungeons after two easy levels is a trap. Ignore it completely, do all six easy dungeons, and only then move on.

[Cespenar]

The part where it tells you to go straight to the next tier of dungeons after two easy levels is a trap. Ignore it completely, do all six easy dungeons, and only then move on.

Especially the minimum level suggestion of 7 or something for Daikara is an outright trolling.

[Maryring]

Whoa. Now I remember why I struggled so much with ToME. Such a choice paralysis inducing skill tree. Still, I plowed through. Selected skills that might possibly potentially be useful. Then died to a level 8 skeleton mage before 100 turns had passed.

[Anteros]

.. I just noticed you double space after periods and now it's driving me nuts

That's how we were taught in school. At this point it's just muscle memory and I don't even notice I'm doing it.