Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[hroþila]

Also, your plans are only more rational if you assume that the Guard proactively hunts down threats to the other gates, which they explicitly cant. We've been over this. And before you say its not true, I don't care that you don't believe Shojo. Claiming that the text is wrong is not a counterargument. We never see the Guard go off and chase down threats to the other gates, only ones to their own gate, or investigating gates that have already been destroyed.

I'm not sure about that. I thought they were hunting down the bearer of the Crimson Mantle because they are a threat to all the gates, not just to the one in Azure City. Redcloak's predecessors didn't even know about the Azurite gate, but they were killed by the Sapphire Guard all the same.

[Lacuna Caster]

"So, the divinations that we just did were wrong? That doesn't make any sense, they unambiguously pointed to a group of adventurers. Let's get someone Higher Up the Celestial Org chart to confirm, this is too weird to figure out."

"No, not wrong exactly. They're a pack of self-destructive misfits who can barely tie their own shoelaces, but they destroyed the Gate out of stupidity rather than malice. They'll probably be tied up with some aimless side-quest for the next few weeks, so for now we can focus on Xykon, though... if you really think it's a good idea, maybe you could let some of them help. Your call entirely."

I never said he was banking on it. Just that a worst case scenario doesn't mean he cant move forward if he still wants to involve the Order. Miko can be resurrected.

Oh, yeah, sure she can. Unless she gets zapped by, say, a disintegrate spell in the middle of a windy thunderstorm that would dissolve her ashes in seconds. But hey, sweet way to treat your 'adoptive daughter', I'm sure she'll be fine.

I would suggest the decent strategy would be to Send to the order initially, followed by contact with the diplomats, and then followed by overwhelming combat strength if absolutely required. It's perfectly reasonable to say 'the text is wrong' if the reasoning it presents is astoundingly ill-founded.
.

[Peelee]

Oh, yeah, sure she can. Unless she gets zapped by, say, a disintegrate spell in the middle of a windy thunderstorm that would dissolve her ashes in seconds. But hey, sweet way to treat your 'adoptive daughter', I'm sure she'll be fine.

I don't think anyone has ever accused Shojo of excessive kindness, ya know.

[Keltest]

I'm not sure about that. I thought they were hunting down the bearer of the Crimson Mantle because they are a threat to all the gates, not just to the one in Azure City. Redcloak's predecessors didn't even know about the Azurite gate, but they were killed by the Sapphire Guard all the same.

The paladins didn't understand the significance of the cloak itself. As I recall, they got a prophecy at some point that a goblin in a red cloak would bring ruin to their gate, specifically. I don't know if this was in a bonus strip or one of the GDGU stories or if I just made it up, but I believe they specifically thought they were a threat to their gate.

Oh, yeah, sure she can. Unless she gets zapped by, say, a disintegrate spell in the middle of a windy thunderstorm that would dissolve her ashes in seconds. But hey, sweet way to treat your 'adoptive daughter', I'm sure she'll be fine.

I would suggest the decent strategy would be to Send to the order initially, followed by contact with the diplomats, and then followed by overwhelming combat strength. It's perfectly reasonable to say 'the text is wrong' if the reasoning it presents is astoundingly ill-founded.

Given that you seem to be the only one struggling to follow the logic, I would suggest the problem is with you, not the story.

[Peelee]

The paladins didn't understand the significance of the cloak itself. As I recall, they got a prophecy at some point that a goblin in a red cloak would bring ruin to their gate, specifically. I don't know if this was in a bonus strip or one of the GDGU stories or if I just made it up, but I believe they specifically thought they were a threat to their gate.

I don't remember it in GDGU, or from anywhere else. I'm not as strong on the paid content as I am on the online strip, though, especially with the commentary.

[hroþila]

For what it's worth, I would imagine Shojo didn't think the Order could possibly defeat Miko, and that he underestimated the Order so it was closer than it should have been. Possibly because his main source, Eugene, doesn't think highly of Roy's (or, by extension, the Order's) capabilities.

The paladins didn't understand the significance of the cloak itself. As I recall, they got a prophecy at some point that a goblin in a red cloak would bring ruin to their gate, specifically. I don't know if this was in a bonus strip or one of the GDGU stories or if I just made it up, but I believe they specifically thought they were a threat to their gate.

I don't remember that, so it might be from GDGU, which I don't know well yet. Would be nice if someone else could provide the quote.

[Lacuna Caster]

I don't think anyone has ever accused Shojo of excessive kindness, ya know.

Excessive kindness, maybe not. Apparent indifference to Miko dying alone in some foreign country with no-one to bring her home or send for help? ...That's more like active hate.

The paladins didn't understand the significance of the cloak itself. As I recall, they got a prophecy at some point that a goblin in a red cloak would bring ruin to their gate, specifically. I don't know if this was in a bonus strip or one of the GDGU stories or if I just made it up, but I believe they specifically thought they were a threat to their gate...

Again, if only there had been someone who they could ask, "Was there a goblin with a red cloak? You know, along with all the other goblins helping Xykon? Not far from the big hobgoblin kingdom where we suspected the Crimson Mantle could have been hiding a few years ago? Ringing any bells? ...No?"
.

[Peelee]

Excessive kindness, maybe not. Apparent indifference to Miko dying alone in some foreign country with no-one to bring her home or send for help? ...That's more like active hate.

She's sent on a lot of long-range missions alone in a D&D world. Dying alone in a foreign country is always a worst-case scenario. Hell, dying in a foreign country with no one to bring them home or send for help was a worst-case scenario for the paladins in Start of Darkness. They're a paramilitary group, it's not gonna be sunshine and flowers. There's no active hate unless you just want to be as disingenuous to Shojo as possible.

[Lacuna Caster]

She's sent on a lot of long-range missions alone in a D&D world. Dying alone in a foreign country is always a worst-case scenario. Hell, dying in a foreign country with no one to bring them home or send for help was a worst-case scenario for the paladins in Start of Darkness...

No no. Dying in a foreign country with plenty of other paladins to retrieve your corpse (or at least a pinch of your ashes) was a possibility for the paladins in SoD. Short of a TPK, or their relatives or Shojo not wanting to pony up the cash for a Raise Dead, they were most likely going to be fine.

Sending out Miko with zero backup is a very different situation. Windstriker would disappear on her death, and in any case is not well equipped to drag her carcass back to civilisation. And the wilderness is full of hungry predators who might not only kill her, but consume her remains in short order. It's much more risky.

[Keltest]

No no. Dying in a foreign country with plenty of other paladins to retrieve your corpse (or at least a pinch of your ashes) was a possibility for the paladins in SoD. Short of a TPK, or their relatives or Shojo not wanting to pony up the cash for a Raise Dead, they were most likely going to be fine.

Sending out Miko with zero backup is a very different situation. Windstriker would disappear on her death, and in any case is not well equipped to drag her carcass back to civilisation. And the wilderness is full of hungry predators who might not only kill her, but consume her remains in short order. It's much more risky.

Is it? Presumably you don't send a band of paladins out unless you believe you need a band of paladins. Therefore any threat capable of actually hurting them is capable of a TPK.

Beyond that though, shojo could totally send his teleporting wizard to retrieve Miko if it came down to it. As abrasive as she is, its unlikely that her corpse would be able to offend the wizard sufficiently as to get him to teleport into a Roc nest.

[Peelee]

No no. Dying in a foreign country with plenty of other paladins to retrieve your corpse (or at least a pinch of your ashes) was a possibility for the paladins in SoD. Short of a TPK

Yes, I agree a TPK would be a worst-case scenario.

[Kish]

The prophecy is pure fan-invention, as far as I can tell.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness; How the Paladin Got His Scar

Show

The paladins and ex-paladins who slaughtered proto-Redcloak's village said "one among you threatens the fabric of reality." They left the red cloak lying there. Decades later, they knew the Crimson Mantle was an artifact; still no prophecy.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yes, I agree a TPK would be a worst-case scenario.

Is it? Presumably you don't send a band of paladins out unless you believe you need a band of paladins. Therefore any threat capable of actually hurting them is capable of a TPK.

In theory, sure. But the group becomes more brittle as size decreases, and the group of one is the most brittle of all. To the extent that Miko's personality was really such a problem that she really wasn't capable of working with anyone else in the Guard, it was irresponsible to allow her to continue in service.

Beyond that though, shojo could totally send his teleporting wizard to retrieve Miko if it came down to it. As abrasive as she is, its unlikely that her corpse would be able to offend the wizard sufficiently as to get him to teleport into a Roc nest.

Yeah, sure, if you're continuously monitoring your agents in the field to make sure they don't get prematurely digested or dissolved post-mortem, that's a possibility in most cases. But if you're prepared to set up that kind of remote monitoring & rapid recall system on behalf of senior paladins, why not just teleport them to their frelling destination in the first place?!

[Peelee]

In theory, sure. But the group becomes more brittle as size decreases, and the group of one is the most brittle of all. To the extent that Miko's personality was really such a problem that she really wasn't capable of working with anyone else in the Guard, it was irresponsible to allow her to continue in service.

In your estimation. You are not Shojo. If I wouldn't rule an empire like Tarquin did, that doesn't mean it's a plot hole, that just means I'm not Tarquin.

[Lacuna Caster]

In your estimation. You are not Shojo...

Meaning what? Shojo's actions are justified by the fact of him... being Shojo? What kind of logic is this? It's not even circular.

It is a very reasonable observation to point out that larger groups have a much better chance of retrieving fallen comrades for burial or resurrection, and you sure as hell want that to be possible for your most senior members of the organisation. (Heck, why promote Miko to second-in-command of the organisation if you're only going to keep her as far away from subordinates as possible? Doesn't that defeat the purpose to promoting her in the first place?)

[Kish]

I'd say, sure. It was irresponsible to entrust missions to someone who so readily changed her orders to ones that allowed for more violence. It was also irresponsible to fake senility, let someone like Kubota become the second most powerful person in the city, and let him and the other nobles conduct private wars, rather than actually taking the risks and going to the effort of preventing the nobles' abuses.

Wake me up when you get to an actual plot hole, instead of endless renditions of how much less positive a character Shojo was than the picture you have in your head of what he could have been if the story was completely different.

[Domino Quartz]

Meaning what? Shojo's actions are justified by the fact of him... being Shojo? What kind of logic is this? It's not even circular.

I don't think Peelee is saying that Shojo's actions are justified by him being Shojo, but that they're rendered "not a plot hole" by him being Shojo. Unless I've misinterpreted what Peelee said, in which case he can correct me.

[Lacuna Caster]

Wake me up when you get to an actual plot hole, instead of endless renditions of how much less positive a character Shojo was than the picture you have in your head of what he could have been if the story was completely different.

I don't think Peelee is saying that Shojo's actions are justified by him being Shojo, but that they're rendered "not a plot hole" by him being Shojo...

No, but if Shojo is ostensibly characterised as someone who mentored and cared for Miko in a fatherly manner, I would expect his behaviour to yield some actual evidence of concern for her well-being. Most of the record does not suggest this.

In any case- for the umpteenth time- Shojo is not the only problem here. The problem is that everyone associated with Shojo- including Miko herself- has to be virtually as clueless in order for depicted events to unfold as they did. It's not plausible that Miko doesn't know teleport spells exist, and there's no good reason why she can't avail of them, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Ruck]

Meaning what? Shojo's actions are justified by the fact of him... being Shojo? What kind of logic is this? It's not even circular.

It means things aren't plot holes just because you would have done them differently.

[hamishspence]

Miko was "only given a small stipend". Combined with the fact that she's very frugal (willing to subsist on lichen of all things) - it makes sense that she does not have money to burn on transport spells.

[B. Dandelion]

The paladins didn't understand the significance of the cloak itself. As I recall, they got a prophecy at some point that a goblin in a red cloak would bring ruin to their gate, specifically. I don't know if this was in a bonus strip or one of the GDGU stories or if I just made it up, but I believe they specifically thought they were a threat to their gate.

I said to you in March 2017 that there wasn't anything about a goblin prophecy in any of the books, and now you're still sticking by it being possibly real but have expanded the list of possible sources for the prophecy to material released since then. Did you really think that something that you incorrectly remembered in 2017 could have actually retroactively become something you remembered from the future? Or did you forget that you said this before?

(It's not in GDGU either!)

[Peelee]

I said to you in March 2017 that there wasn't anything about a goblin prophecy in any of the books, and now you're still sticking by it being possibly real but have expanded the list of possible sources for the prophecy to material released since then. Did you really think that something that you incorrectly remembered in 2017 could have actually retroactively become something you remembered from the future? Or did you forget that you said this before?

(It's not in GDGU either!)

Memory is weird. Like, really weird.

[B. Dandelion]

Memory is weird. Like, really weird.

Yeah, maybe that's a little mean on my part. I'm sure Keltest isn't trying to be anything but helpful, and he does say he might have made it up.

I know my memory isn't perfect either, like just recently I didn't recall young Durkon's line about working for Shirra in the mines. But I really want to get it straightened out if I'm forgetting about something major, and "the Sapphire Guard were motivated by a prophecy" is kind of a big deal.

[Jack Of Rivia]

The usual MO of the SG redarding external mission was this: send a couple of middle level Paladin, for short missions, or send the very powerful and the very antisocial paladin miyazaki to long mission outside, alone. So, once it comes the time to collect the Order, Shojo had only these two options. And it choosed the latter.. a mistake, in hindsigh.
ANY DEVIATION FROM THE NORM -scring from Sangwaan, teleport from the wizard, wind walk from the high priest, eccetera, had the risk to attract unwanted attention ob the mission, from Kubota or others like him.
"That is unusual Quarr. The Saffire Guard always send Miyazaki alone, and never use magic spell to expedite her mission.. must be something special on this mission in the north. Order Therkla and er squad to investigate."

Now, i myself wonder, why someone as paranoid ad Shojo would be so letient to handle his personal mage to Roy, or have Belkar released from Prison? I can see three motivations:
1) he needed to compromise a little innorder to get Roy's cooperation;
2) he assumed his sympathy towards the order would have been interpreted as his senility, or as a way to repay the order for the wrong incarceration;
3)he geniunly liked the Order. He was probaly tired of his charade, and enjoyed having someone he could be open and frank with. These probably made him more letinent he should have been - helping Belkar was the straw which broke Camel Miko's back, and it led to his demise.

[hamishspence]

Now, i myself wonder, why someone as paranoid ad Shojo would be so letient to handle his personal mage to Roy, or have Belkar released from Prison? I can see three motivations:
1) he needed to compromise a little innorder to get Roy's cooperation;
2) he assumed his sympathy towards the order would have been interpreted as his senility, or as a way to repay the order for the wrong incarceration;
3)he geniunly liked the Order. He was probaly tired of his charade, and enjoyed having someone he could be open and frank with. These probably made him more letinent he should have been - helping Belkar was the straw which broke Camel Miko's back, and it led to his demise.

Don't Split The Party has a flashback strip which provides a reason to release Belkar (with Mark):

Spoiler

Show

Sangwaan: "I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

[Aquillion]

The problem there is, how do you, as the head of a secret order but also knowing that order is devoted to a mission from the Gods in service of guarding existence itself that supersedes your authority, determine if someone is more loyal to you than to that divine mission, without blowing your cover? I can't imagine Shojo felt like he could even broach the topic with any of his wizards. Indeed, from a War and XPs bonus strip:

Spoiler: War and XPs bonus strip

Show

We know he prods at Hinjo a bit to see if he's flexible in the way Shojo believes he needs to be, but backs off quickly when he doesn't get an answer he likes. He's going to be more open with a random SG wizard than his own nephew and heir?

I wasn't under the impression that the wizard was a Sapphire Guard member (I thought the seer was the only non-Paladin they had.)

Someone outside the SG is less likely to betray him for ideological reasons, though they may be more likely to betray him for other reasons. But he'd have to weigh the risks of that vs. the risks that, if he tries to do things entirely on his own, he could find himself marginalized or unable to act when he needs to do so. Having just a single loyal servant would make his job vastly safer and easier - he can pretend to be a senile old man with excessive trust in this servant, and can then give any "smart" orders he needs through them (making it look like it was his servant's idea and using them as a mouthpiece) rather than giving them himself.

Of course, this places his mouthpiece at risk.

[Joerg]

Why not teleport? There's only one wizard who can cast it for Shojo and maybe he wasn't available or maybe Shojo didn't want to reveal to the SG that he employs that wizard.

Why not wind walk? Maybe there's no cleric of high enough level in the SG and Shojo doesn't trust other clerics or isn't willing to pay what they would demand. We don't know the political affiliations of the high priest.

Note that Miko or anyone else in the SG can't pay for external spells behind Shojos back.

Why not take the risk / pay the price anyway? In the end, it comes down to Shojo underestimating the threat posed by Xykon and Redcloak. Not without reason: the loss of Lirians Gate looks like an accident, and Xykon actually was defeated at Dorukans Gate. Shojo felt safe in Azure City and thought he had time enough, even if there's a lich and the Crimson Mantle. He just didn't assign enough priority to it, which was a mistake.

Shojo (and Eugene) probably also underestimated the Order compared to Miko, which was another mistake, but that actually still worked, even though it was closer than he probably wanted.

And why not send to Roy? Because the 'clever' plan is to coerce him with a fake trial, and then you can't warn him.

That's my take on it, anyway, and I think that fits the characters and the situation.

[Dion]

That wizard seemed kind of worthless for anything except drunken missed teleports.

But I’m never sure if characters actually exist when they’re not on panel. Is it possible that the wizard had some kind of life outside of the small amount we saw? Or is it safe to assume that all characters just spend 100% of their time waiting for the heroes to need them?

For example, maybe his kid had just died, and Shojo wanted to give him time to grieve.

Or maybe he was away on a very important trade delegation.

Or maybe he’s the standard wizard template, and he thinks he’s too important for most tasks, but he was attracted to Elan and wanted to spend more time with him.

[The Pilgrim]

I got a new one for you, Lacuna Caster:

Why did Durkon make Shojo send Miko all the way North to give a letter to the High Priest of Thor, when Durkon could have just asked his mom to write and deliver it, then tell him the answer, if any?

[zimmerwald1915]

But I’m never sure if characters actually exist when they’re not on panel. Is it possible that the wizard had some kind of life outside of the small amount we saw? Or is it safe to assume that all characters just spend 100% of their time waiting for the heroes to need them?

Considering that most of the Azurite wizard's characterization consists of resenting the assumption that he's merely a taxi for the party and doesn't have a life of his own, I'm gonna guess he does