Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

[woweedd]

His entire portfolio is to let stuff run their course to see who survives and who doesn't? Laziest god ever.

Goddess, actually. Her portfolio also includes conflict and competition ing enral. plus, she actually disdains murder or violence that doesn't have a purpose. Plus, she, surprisingly, gronks the concept of Love, albeit only in the sense of "the desire to help others survive." And, while pacifists and people who put pleasure over their lives offend her, so too do people who kill their opponents without giving them the chance to fight back. Every creature deserves a chance to fight back, even if they don't deserve to win.

[Peelee]

plus, she actually disdains murder or violence that doesn't have a purpose.

Well that doesn't make much sense for a Natural Selection goddess.

[woweedd]

Well that doesn't make much sense for a Natural Selection goddess.

Murder for survival is OK. Murder for no purpose? Makes no sense. Putting pleasure above business.

[Fyraltari]

Goddess, actually. Her portfolio also includes conflict and competition ing enral. plus, she actually disdains murder or violence that doesn't have a purpose. Plus, she, surprisingly, gronks the concept of Love, albeit only in the sense of "the desire to help others survive." And, while pacifists and people who put pleasure over their lives offend her, so too do people who kill their opponents without giving them the chance to fight back. Every creature deserves a chance to fight back, even if they don't deserve to win.

That mes more sense. Except the that last part. Stealth killing is a perfectly valid form of survival. Hell that's how predator works most of the time.

[Peelee]

Murder for survival is OK. Murder for no purpose? Makes no sense. Putting pleasure above business.

And what does that have to do with natural selection? A remarkably fit species who gets wiped out by a volcano makes no sense and die out for no purpose, and yet. Natural selection has a lot of dumb luck attached to it, and "fittest" is nowhere near the best term.

[woweedd]

And what does that have to do with natural selection? A remarkably fit species who gets wiped out by a volcano makes no sense and die out for no purpose, and yet. Natural selection has a lot of dumb luck attached to it, and "fittest" is nowhere near the best term.

I think we've established this is a world where gods exist. This is a world where you CAN straight-up stop volcanoes, if you have the right magic. And she doesn't really stop it, she just doesn't like it. As I said, same with other people who disadvantage their own survival/the survival of their species. One example: A set of creatures who are about to get wiped out. Since they're gonna die anyway, she decides to show up and fight them. Won't change anything, since they can't beat a goddess in combat, but it at least gives them a chance to fight back, if futilely, rather then face death as passive victims.

[Fyraltari]

And what does that have to do with natural selection? A remarkably fit species who gets wiped out by a volcano makes no sense and die out for no purpose, and yet. Natural selection has a lot of dumb luck attached to it, and "fittest" is nowhere near the best term.

Of course it is. The species fittest to the lava strives. "Fit" is always relative to the environment and natural selection is never over: whenever something modifies the environment, such as a volcanic eruption the cards are dealt again, that's all.

[woweedd]

Of course it is. The species fittest to the lava strives. "Fit" is always relative to the environment and natural selection is never over: whenever something modifies the environment, such as a volcanic eruption the cards are dealt again, that's all.

This is true.

[Aquillion]

That's speculative, and I think not true. Belkar didn't work for Xykon prior to receiving the curse, nor after the curse was gone.

It's a reference to this page (and the preceding one), where Belkar says he would have accepted Tsukiko's offer if he realized Xykon could remove his Mark of Justice.

[Ruck]

And what does that have to do with natural selection? A remarkably fit species who gets wiped out by a volcano makes no sense and die out for no purpose, and yet. Natural selection has a lot of dumb luck attached to it, and "fittest" is nowhere near the best term.

Of course it is. The species fittest to the lava strives. "Fit" is always relative to the environment and natural selection is never over: whenever something modifies the environment, such as a volcanic eruption the cards are dealt again, that's all.

This is true.

It's really not. "Survival of the fittest" is probably more accurately termed "survival of those who meet the minimum standards for reproduction."

[Fyraltari]

It's really not. "Survival of the fittest" is probably more accurately termed "survival of those who meet the minimum standards for reproduction."

That's not a term that's a periphrase. That's like saying physics is more accurately termed "incomplete model of the different laws (adn their iteractions) who dictates the behaviour of matter".

[martianmister]

I present a revision on the character of hilgya:

she never fled her husband, and she never would. ivan was not her husband. Oh, they technically got married, but the marriage was never consummed, and this provides instant invalidation of the marriage (I'm sure it does in at least some legal code)

That's right, no matter how much you deny it.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's not a term that's a periphrase. That's like saying physics is more accurately termed "incomplete model of the different laws (adn their iteractions) who dictates the behaviour of matter".

Only if you accept that "survival of the fittest" is itself an accurate or rigorous term. It isn't. It is itself a paraphrase of "natural selection," and a latter-day paraphrase at that.

[Snails]

"Survival of the fittest" is a very imprecise concept, which boils down to basically a post hoc explanation. However muddy it is, it is useful for debunking concepts of species having an a priori discernible destiny or place in the universe. For that purpose, a bit of post hoc perspective can be positively useful.

An aside...

The traditional definition of "fit" is (1a) about suitability, in the spirit of clothing, (1b) made ready, in the spirit of clothing trimmed/tailored to a specific person, or (2) "by fits", in the meaning of seizures.

Early discussions of Darwinian evolution included the image of a new species fitting into the ecosystem via displacing partially or fully other species, like a new shim/wedge hammered into a space already occupied by other shims/wedges. The shim that fits that particular ecological space better tends to prevail.

"Fit" or "fittest" in terms of athleticism is a post-Darwinian concept, quite likely a distortion of the Darwinian idea. The Oxford English Dictionary shows its first example in 1869.

OTOH there were earlier usages around the idea of fit as having been made more suitable for a purpose (from a less suitable state), so making an athletic team or military squad "fit" through training would probably have been understandable enough in earlier days, but it would not have had quite the same meaning as today. Today, if I say the team/squad "trained to become fit" it would be interpreted as primarily or only about physical qualities of robustness, rather than a combination of teamwork and skills and strength.

"Survival of the fittest" is now often used as a tautology, to prop up nebulous moral theories. It had an almost precise meaning 100-150 years ago, but no longer.

[Ruck]

Only if you accept that "survival of the fittest" is itself an accurate or rigorous term. It isn't. It is itself a paraphrase of "natural selection," and a latter-day paraphrase at that.

Right, thanks. I think people take that paraphrase and assume "fittest" means "optimal" (because, well, that's closer to what it actually means as a word). But natural selection isn't about optimization; it's just about clearing the bar for survival.

[Peelee]

Right, thanks. I think people take that paraphrase and assume "fittest" means "optimal" (because, well, that's closer to what it actually means as a word). But natural selection isn't about optimization; it's just about clearing the bar for survival.

Well, clearing the bar for reproduction, to be fair. And while it certainly sucks, if being murdered senselessly means you clear that bar, then that's natural selection baby!

[Ruck]

Well, clearing the bar for reproduction, to be fair. And while it certainly sucks, if being murdered senselessly means you clear that bar, then that's natural selection baby!

Right, obviously that's correct; I was a bit rushed this morning.

"Survival of the fittest" is now often used as a tautology, to prop up nebulous moral theories. It had an almost precise meaning 100-150 years ago, but no longer.

Yeah, this is a major reason I push back against the term; I find the moral theories justified by it generally atrocious (and based on an inaccurate understanding of the term to boot).

[King of Nowhere]

if a volcano wipe out the entire population, then the popualtion was not fit. the fittest population was the one that spread around and colonized a large area, so that losing some in an eruption didn't cause an extinction.

And "survival of the fittest" is actually the most accurate term, as much as it is vague, exactly because it is vague. "Fit" means just "whatever it was that gave an advantage", regardless of what it is. Often it can only be justified retroactively, but that's simply because nature and the environment are so unpredictable. Something changes, and suddenly what was an illness becomes the key to survival.

A goddess of natural selection that encourages figthing and dislikes pacifism is therefore a corruption of the real thing, either intentional or made in ignorance - as most laymen still confuse "the fittest" with "the best", or strongest, or whatever. I'm thinking of leeky windstaff "druids always pick the hard way; it encourages natural selection"; the only selection it encourages is to select out those who always pick the hard way.
Refusing to fight is a perfectly legitimate strategy. Take grass: it never fights anyone, it just grows fast and reproduce quickly, and because of that it covers most of the planet. Figthing fair is a terrible strategy; a predator needs to eat regularly, and cannot risk to take an invalidating injury virtually every day.

And since someone mentioned the moral theories inspired by misunderstanding of the "survival of the fittest" concept, their main weakness is that they encourage ruthlesness, selfishness, and foul play. Definitely not the traits we want to encourage in a society.
But actually, what "the fittest" means depends on the environment. So the job of society is to actually create an environment where those with traits deemed desirable can thrive. things like selflessness and honesty can thrive in the kind of society that makes it advantageous to have them.

[King of Nowhere]

That's right, no matter how much you deny it.

Not really. my piece uses correct facts taken out of context to make a lie. it's true that in many legal systems the marriage could have been cancelled because of ivan's clear mental disability. it's not true that hilgya cared about ivan, or didn't want to take advantage of him, or run away to protect him. hilgya did not told durkon "they tried to marry me, but the marriage is void because my husband is retarded". No, she said "I run away from my marriage after tying to poison my husband", which means that she never even considered the "this is not fair to ivan" angle. if nothing else, ivan's disability makes it even worse for hilgya to try to poison him.
after that, running away from the marriage was pretty much the only justified thing she did.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not really. my piece uses correct facts taken out of context to make a lie. it's true that in many legal systems the marriage could have been cancelled because of ivan's clear mental disability. it's not true that hilgya cared about ivan, or didn't want to take advantage of him, or run away to protect him. hilgya did not told durkon "they tried to marry me, but the marriage is void because my husband is retarded". No, she said "I run away from my marriage after tying to poison my husband", which means that she never even considered the "this is not fair to ivan" angle. if nothing else, ivan's disability makes it even worse for hilgya to try to poison him.
after that, running away from the marriage was pretty much the only justified thing she did.

You and what medical training, and what patient-hours, and what diagnostic guidelines, are coming to this conclusion about a "clear mental disability?"

[Emanick]

You and what medical training, and what patient-hours, and what diagnostic guidelines, are coming to this conclusion about a "clear mental disability?"

Hilgya seems to think that Ivan is mentally impaired, due to an “undiagnosed brain injury.”

You are aware that this is a fictional comic strip penned by a non-medical professional. As such, expecting strict medical accuracy in the depiction of neurological impairments is hardly realistic. Moreover, Ivan isn’t human, and we know his anatomy is different from that of a human - if nothing else, he has two livers. So expecting real-world medical expertise to be relevant in diagnosing Ivan the fictional dwarf’s precise neurological state borders on the absurd.

[King of Nowhere]

You and what medical training, and what patient-hours, and what diagnostic guidelines, are coming to this conclusion about a "clear mental disability?"

you should take that one with martianmister. she's the one who took my joke to argue that the marriage was void in the first place because ivan is too dumb. and i argued that it's irrelevant to the discussion about hilgya, because her actions were never motivated by any kind of concern for ivan.
so, if you want to argue for or against ivan being disabled or simply dumb, i'm out of that discussion

[martianmister]

you should take that one with martianmister. she's the one who took my joke to argue that the marriage was void in the first place because ivan is too dumb.

Where did I do that?

[Dr.Zero]

Not really. my piece uses correct facts taken out of context to make a lie. it's true that in many legal systems the marriage could have been cancelled because of ivan's clear mental disability. it's not true that hilgya cared about ivan, or didn't want to take advantage of him, or run away to protect him. hilgya did not told durkon "they tried to marry me, but the marriage is void because my husband is retarded".

Well, to be fair, she justified him in retrospect, as being trapped like her, both by traditions and rules and by a maybe undiagnosed brain injury, basically saying that initially she leashed against him because she didn't see him as a fellow prisoner.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1114.html

[CriticalFailure]

is there a possibility Girard Draketooth changed alignment after adventuring, bc I don’t have a problem with interpreting Hilgya as CE in a vacuum but I find it hard to reconcile him being able to maintain a CN alignment with her going in the CE box. That seems like a big piece of evidence that she is CN.

[Peelee]

is there a possibility Girard Draketooth changed alignment after adventuring, bc I don’t have a problem with interpreting Hilgya as CE in a vacuum but I find it hard to reconcile him being able to maintain a CN alignment with her going in the CE box. That seems like a big piece of evidence that she is CN.

What evil actions have we seen Girard do?

[Aveline]

What evil actions have we seen Girard do?

Rigging the false Gate coordinates to kill Soon et al. stands out to me, but I can't think of anything else.

[Fyraltari]

It's unclear if the whole "seducing strangers and then kidnapping the child" was his idea or not.

[Kish]

If it was, then either 1) yes, he changed alignment to evil, or 2) I'm getting on the "we shouldn't discuss alignment here" train, not because I believe the alignment system is inherently negative, but because Rich's alignment classifications of his characters would thus have gone from "sometimes north of where Kish would put them" to "what...the...hell..."

[Peelee]

Rigging the false Gate coordinates to kill Soon et al. stands out to me, but I can't think of anything else.

I'll accept that, fair point. For what it's worth, I do think Girard likely turned Evil after the Order of the Scribble broke, but there's not a lot to back up that theory. All we know for sure is he wasn't Evil while he was in the OotS (the other one).