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Thread: Erfworld 78, Page 72
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2007-09-23, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Very good points, but...
1) Those sparklies (which I hadn't noticed before, thanks) go away when Jillian heals, which is definitely a length of time after the spell is cast; this indicates to me that the spell broke at that point. Which would also be why Jillian realizes her betrayal of Ansom at that point and starts to cry. I presume that means the spell we see being cast is a short-term suggestion spell, perhaps akin to plying someone with alcohol to get information out of them. It doesn't force them, but lowers their inhibitions about sharing information.
2) Jillian was aware of that spell being cast, as it was right in front of her; yet she seems surprised when Jaclyn mentions the spell on her.
3) Sizemore may be assuming there is a suggestion spell in play. Heck, knowing (the superficial, public) Wanda, it is FAR more likely that she cast a domination spell than that it is love. In fact, Wanda would want to protect her secret, so she tells people it's a spell. I mean, would Stanley ever permit Jillian to leave if he knew that there as no magical coercion involved?
4) that may be why Wanda said that the spell couldn't be broken, because there is no spell.
5) the Archons are still an unknown quantity. They're loyalty is to Charlie, not Ansom. The other Archons may have been protesting/upset because Jaclyn was lying to Jillian about the spell. Or, they may have been playing along to make it more believable. Heck, for that matter, Ansom may have paid Charlie to have the Archons do this. We already see Ansom losing his faith in Jillian.
All of these points are to show how it is POSSIBLE that Love is the only 'spell' influencing Jillian.
However, even if it is true, I doubt we'll find out it in this story arc. It just doesn't fit unless we get a James Bond-esque "bad guy gives away their plot because they thin there's no way to stop it" moment from the Archons. Heck, if their true purpose there is actually to steal the two arkentools, they may actually succeed (sounds more like something Stanley would think up, but we really don't know anything about Charlie).
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2007-09-23, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
I think Stanley falls back to his original plan of running and leaving Gobwin Knob to fall, and then try to rebuild elsewhere.
Which is the best thing that could happen for Gobwin Knob. My guess is that if the Tool departs, a void opens up for "leader of Gobwin Knob" which would fall to Wanda if she weren't so damaged, but I think it will fall to Parson.
Which means we get to see Parson in action while he's not also trying to work around the Tool.
My guess, Parson gives Ansom the choice between taking the city, and hunting down the tool.
Ansom has no reason to attack Gobwin Knob now that the Tool's gone.Believer of Smashdor
"You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die, isn't that right, MISTER THREE-FOURTEEN"
~Mortimer McMire
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2007-09-23, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
I haven't said anything on the comic for a while now, but one thing I have to say: "Does Stanley jump to conclusions like he's a grasshopper or what?"
Quite in-character with his dimunitive appearance+arkenhammer, i.e.: he's a big baby!
Being the tool that he is, he does not know anything about strategy and even says that it doesn't matter! His forces destroying the rest of the siege equipment next morning (what Parson probably wanted to do) would still gain GK time, raise it's morale and surprise Ansom. Ansom knows Stanley, and probably knows that a minor setback is all it takes to demoralise him. This loss of personal morale will, as we can see, drive Stanley into formulating some "will of the Titans" excuse to act in a desperate way to fulfill some self-devised ultimate test...
hey... such a rash and unpredictable (strategically insane) action by Stanley might even turn the tide... Not Parson, but Stanley will try (ignorantly) to pull off some kind of Ender's Game
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2007-09-23, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Regarding Wanda, I'm curious what her backstory is. There is often a reason why someone acts the way they do.
Regarding Parson's compassion, yes, but why is Sizemore invisible to most everyone?? Sizemore noticed she left the table. And it was Sizemore who requested they look after her.
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2007-09-23, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
OOH! Just had another flash of what-might-be.
REGICIDE!
Not too likely, perhaps, but hey, it -could- happen. I mean, if Stanley could do it ('of sorts', whatever that means) then it could happen to him too.
More likely is that Parson, Wanda, and Sizemore (and maybe Misty, but I think Stanley has other plans for her...) defect to the coalition side, in return for their lives being spared. I doubt the Gobwins would be able to hold for very long against the combined might of the uncroaked, the crap golems, Sizemore's 'tricks' and Parson's strategy. Not to mention, you know, an army of Marbits and other tunnel fighters.
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2007-09-23, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
That would be cojones, and since the "guy who got married" is Jamie, the one who DRAWS the strip, I don't see why it should have made a blind bit of difference. And frankly, I don't see that it DID make a difference--apart from the slow updates the comic is still the same high standard it had when it started.
As for the writers closing a chapter, yes, it's about time they started winding things up--the whole "Battle for Gobwin Knob" is supposed to be maybe 80-90 strips, or something like that, and they're already on page 72 (ignoring the Klogs).
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2007-09-23, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
IIRC, Rob has stated that he had the outline of the entire story written in advance -- the development of individual pages consists of Rob expanding the set of plot points to be covered on that page into a full set of directions to Jamie (what happens in each frame, what things need to be seen, what emotions the characters are supposed to project, etc), Jamie turning those directions into a page of art, and Rob lettering in dialog boxes that are readable and as unobtrusive as possible.
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2007-09-23, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
From the way Parson held well against the Alliance here, I only have one more thing to say on this...
"THIS, IS, GOBWIN KNOB!!!!"
- DentargDM Ajantis: DM of the Realm of Anestoril (Formerly Realm of Windchester): "Games are not all about graphics; Storyline, Innovation, Interaction, Graphics, all combined are the true element of a successful game."
"You think DMing is all about flying and laser eyes? THINK AGAIN!"
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2007-09-23, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
I really feel for Wanda. The total brokenness there isn't the sort of thing you get just from loss of control, especially given that Wanda still has control over the rest of the uncroaked troops.
However, grief can make a person break like that. Whatever else that was going on, Wanda really did care for Jillian. Her plea to let Jillian live in the previous strips makes that pretty clear. And now, whether or not Jillian is alive, Wanda's lost her. That's not just a 'I don't have my favorite toy' problem, that's a 'This person I cared about is gone' problem. Jillian doesn't love her anymore.
(Of course, Jillian might still love her/care about her, just be angry and not want to play that particular game anymore, but from Wanda's perspective, that's not obvious and isn't really going to matter right now anyway.)
Stanley's not being particularly mature, here. He's stomping off into a corner and sulking.
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2007-09-23, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-23, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
I have stated this before but feel no shame at repeating it. I would rather have this comic come at a slow pace and the same high quality than see anything rushed. Also, marriage is important. Perhaps one of the most important things in life. I respect and trust the creative team and once a week is fine by me, far better than no comic at all.
Keep up the good work, guys.
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2007-09-23, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Well, Stanley, you ruined it for everyone.
I feel bad for Wanda, poor her, apparently whatever it was she used that kimono for with the tool was not worth it in the end, yuck.
Well, I forsee a loss of gobwin knob and a trekking into the forrest by Wanda, Sizemore, Bogroll, and Hamstar. I also forsee Stanley coming too, but becoming a moody (dare I say it?) emo who sulks all day and argues with everyone else until he wanders off into the woods, gets captured, rescued, and tied to a tree.
No, that's too cliche.
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2007-09-23, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Is it at all possible that the spell linking Wanda and Jillian was a two-way street? Perhaps it was Wanda who initiated the spell, but that the spell creates a situation where either can influence the other. Perhaps Wanda really thought she was in control... because she has been LEAD to believe that by Jillian! Perhaps Wanda's refusal to believe Jillian would betray was actually a suggestion of her own to protect Jillian at whatever cost!
They were both double agents, and it became a question of who would break from the relationship first. Wanda was protecting Jillian, and fully expected Jillian to do the same for her. But Jillian broke the spell, and Wanda was hit by the snap-back.
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2007-09-23, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Lots of good ideas in this thread for how the plot might continue from here. But I think at this point in the story, it's not the time to add major new (unforeshadowed) complications or make any 180-degree turns. Therefore:
SpoilerWhether Stanley leaves or not, Parson, Wanda, and the remaining warlords must continue to defend GK. The key line is: "Your upkeep'll be paid as long as the city stands." Remember what that means in this setting: upkeep = existence.
This is a subtle but major change! Especially if Stanley won't be staying around to alter those standing orders later (which seems very likely), Parson is now committed directly to the defense of GK, instead of indirectly through needing to obey and please Stanley. For all practical purposes they're his hexes now.
But that also means no diplomatic resolution, no switching sides, no hitting the road (for Parson and co.), no letting Jillian waltz in and take over without a fight.
If Stanley does leave, that could also draw off some of the alliance forces to hunt for him and the dwagons (or divide them by distraction, if he goes directly after the pliers). Leaving the overall siege odds more or less same as when we started, and another opportunity for Parson and Wanda to show what they can accomplish with whatever resources are left behind for them.----------&&&&- Walt
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2007-09-23, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
I agree that this is not the time for any major plot twists, except the story-arc ending kind.
SpoilerHowever, we already know one situation that can cause a unit to have it's upkeep be paid by someone other than it's overlord: being captured. I hypothesize that there are other conditions for that to happen as well, surrender/turning traitor probably being one of them. Presumably, it is based on who is currently in control of a unit. It's not all that unrealistic of a situation. In the real world, the captor must pay for the food of the prisoner.
Similarly, if Parson & co. give GK up to the coalition/Jillian, I would presume that the coalition (i.e. either Jetstone or Jillian) would get both the income and expenses of GK, including the upkeep of Parson, Wanda, and the rest. The new overlord of GK (King Jetstone or Jillian) would need to decide whether to maintain those upkeeps or not.
I'm guessing that for plot continuity (presuming that Stanley does lose GK, which is far from certain) Jillian takes control, spares Wanda for obvious reasons (she likes it, after all) and keeps Parson on to run her armies (kind of the reverse of the relationship between King Jetstone and Ansom).
I also can't see her being any less merciful to Sizemore and any other plaids about who were forced to serve under Stanley; after all, they just did what they had to to survive, and other than Stanley and maybe Wanda, I don't think that any of them would be guilty of war crimes.
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2007-09-23, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
If Stanley runs off on his own, abandoning Gobwin Knob (effectively splitting that side into two separate factions), how does the turn-based day accommodate them?
Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-09-23 at 03:01 PM.
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2007-09-23, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
People really need to stop using spoiler tags. It's asinine. You're making speculation, not actually spoiling anything. Even if you were directly describing something in the comic, it's linked on the left side of every page and people presumably wouldn't be reading a thread titled "Erfworld 78, page 72" without expecting to see the comic dissected.
Spoiler tags are for spoilers in other media, not this comic. Like, if you're discussing important plot points or the ending of a movie or book or video game or another comic.
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2007-09-23, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Then Explain how Misty wasnt linked up when we first met her? They have to rest some time. No where in this comic does it say "breaking" the link causes death, but rather destroying the parameters of the spell, not the link itself. Again, in this, there is no point where it says the link was broken. Once more, Sizemores line implies that relinking in the morning is a regular thing, that was only signifigant now because Parsons actions may have jeopardized it.
Here we learn that you need a lookamancer in the stack to veil, something they can't do with the Eyemancer's linked.
Stanley is not my favorite character, but they way everyone keeps saying he was idiotic in his decision here is getting frustrating. He walked into the middle of a plan he neither okayed or even helped plan, and then was helpless as he watched it fall apart. Stanley needs those fliers to defend against ansoms Fliers when they reach Gobwin Knob, so sacrificing them all to get the siege as some have suggested is still a useless act. Withdrawal IS the best solution.
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2007-09-23, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
I disagree. For someone who is used to being in complete control of the situation--and bear in mind Wanda has subtly influenced both Parson and Stanley into doing what she wants, showing she is used to pulling the strings--suddenly realising none of your puppets are quite as tightly controlled as you thought they were would come as a great shock. Oh, and while Wanda may be Chief Croakamancer and has responsibility for Uncroaking people, there's nothing in the strip to say she retains direct control of them--they seem to go into the general pool of troops that are under the command of Stanley and his Chief Warlord.
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2007-09-23, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Two ideas:
1) you can't actually have more than two sides within 'game-space' (i.e. on the battlemap). Stanley and GK would continue to act at the same time, but would probably fall under the same rules that allies do (whatever they are; that hasn't come into play yet)
2) the day get split into three periods instead of two. Morning, Midday, Afternoon/Evening. remember that the length of a day is dependent on the length of the turns, not the other way around. I'm honestly surprised that there is even a night-period at all. There doesn't seem to be much of a reason for it like how there is no reason for childhood or civilians, so they don't exist.
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2007-09-23, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Possible outcomes from my perspective:
1. Stanley stays and fights in GK. This could lead to the city being destroyed, thus destroying all units dependent on GK for upkeep at the start of the next turn after the destruction. I'd give this one P<0.01 of happening, since Stanley already considered fleeing--and most of the treasury is gone by now anyway.
2a. Stanley flees, but Parson/Wanda stand and fight, possibly ordered to cover Stanley's retreat. Since the summoning spell will end Parson's existence if he refuses an order(See panel 7), he'd be stuck doing just that, likely causing the destruction of GK and himself...Wanda might switch sides, however. Note that if an objective of the allied forces is to hold GK intact, then Parson could coordinate guerrilla tactics in the streets.
2b. Stanley flees, leaving no orders for Parson, Wanda, or anyone he doesn't take with him. This leaves Parson and Wanda as essentially free agents, able to negotiate or surrender, thereby maintaining their existence.
3. Parson's next stupid meal...does something mind-bending. I don't even want to think about that, since it could literally be a deus ex machina.
4. ...the authors do something within their ruleset but that nobody thought of...which seems to be a pattern with this comic.
It's also worth noting (someone referenced that Parson, Wanda, and Sizemore may be unable to speak again) that Stanley only said "Don't say another word in my presence".
Interesting days in Erfworld...Last edited by Ripsaw; 2007-09-23 at 04:35 PM.
Power Corrupts. Absolute power is actually kinda cool...*Evil Laugh*
"Beatings, beatings, beatings, beatings...and more beatings" -- Jillian Michaels, The Biggest Loser
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2007-09-23, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-23, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Don't mistake the 'link' spell with the chains we see them wearing later. I'm guessing the chains are part of controlling the table, or a way for Stanley to remember that they are linked. (i.e. a chain is comprised of links, so chained casters are linked casters, symbolically)
the spell is the link. they are not separate entities. So if the casters need to re-link, the thinkamancer had to re-cast the spell.
in Sizemore's explanation of the link, the rules of grammar (which Rob is almost perfectly consistent in utilizing correctly) indicate that the 'that' in 'that may croak the casters' refers to 'breaking the spell', which can happen just by talking to them as individuals.
The reason Sizemore asks if the casters were able to re-link is because as far as he knows at that point one or more of the casters may have croaked or been rendered useless. Or for that matter, the casting may have failed, which would appear to have the same possible outcomes as breaking the spell.
really, what they did was underestimate Ansom and Jillian. Ansom has shown himself to be much more than a pretty face and high warlord bonus. he is actually an effective strategist. Jillian showed herself to have a stronger mind than Wanda expected. the problem is that parson has been playing the opponent instead of the game. he doesn't know the opponents, though!
No. Ansom does not have air superiority. He has warlord superiority. It may be a faulty assumption, but Parson does indicate that in round 2 of his initial plan, that the dwagons could finish off the siege and make it back to GK before the coalition army gets there. Now maybe the B dwagons alone can't take it all out, but they could probably do enough damage to remoe the threat. (remember that the B dwagons are slower, not weaker, and there were more of them)
We also know that only warlord-led air stacks can choose targets or disengage from a fight. this means that unless Ansom keeps all of his air together in one hex, he is likely to start to lose some warlords. Probably first Webinar and Dora, then maybe Vinny. the point is, he would be squandering his best resource (and also his followers) for very little gain.
I mean really, what can Ansom do if GK moves all of their forces indoors/underground? Fly in a few units, go get some more, meanwhile, those few units are overwhelmed and killed. Rinse, repeat ad nauseum until there is no coalition left.
Or, go in after the GK units, which would lead to a massive attack against Ansom and co. GK would suffer huge losses, I'm sure, but Ansom, Vinny, etc. would all croak eventually. Coalition dissolves without Jetstone to hold it together, and GK wins.
Without the siege, Ansom can only get a few troops over the wall at a time, at which point they are extremely vulnerable to Parson's idea of an insurgency. the other alternative is the tunnels, which is GK's other really strong point. The siege really are the key. Even if it wiped out the rest of the dwagons, getting rid of the siege massively improves Stanley's chances.
Stanley's big mistake is that he is letting the arkenhammer cloud his judgment. that is to say, he sees it as a symbol of his divine right to conquer. The hammer allows him to control the dwagons, so he thinks that the dwagons are how he will win. That is why he is idiotic in this decision.Last edited by fendrin; 2007-09-23 at 05:11 PM.
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2007-09-23, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Poor poor wanda She looks broken
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2007-09-23, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Power Corrupts. Absolute power is actually kinda cool...*Evil Laugh*
"Beatings, beatings, beatings, beatings...and more beatings" -- Jillian Michaels, The Biggest Loser
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2007-09-23, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-23, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Could be...
It's like the fellowship of the 'tools! (boop me)
Though I would think it would work like Wanda's hypothetical spell: encourage him to act in ways he already would, but in the arkenhammer's own interest.
You know, a lot of the characters kind of make sense from a DnD class perspective (thinking of Warlord as a prestige class). Ansom would be an aristocrat/paladin/warlord, Jillian an aristocrat/barbarian/warlord, Vinny a vampire/warlord, etc.
anyway, the point I'm making is that Stanley would be a fighter/warlord, and therefore have a lower will save than Ansom, and thus easier for the 'tool to influence.
Similarly, i think that Jillian has more aristocrat levels than Wanda expected, giving her a higher will save than a barbarian normally would.
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2007-09-23, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
I still believe what Stanley said originally: Ansom is bringing the Arkenpliers to him. Here's my theory:
Breaking the mancer link is not a big deal - they know what's coming and Stanley will only be commanding one hex: Gobwin Knob.
I think the next move will be Stanley calling Ansom out to a one on one, winner take all fight. Ansom will bite; he's noble and he'd rather face the danger himself than put others in it, and this will be his undoing. Stanley with the Arkenhammer will face off against Ansom and the Arkenpliers. Since the pliers aren't attuned to him, Stanley will win, collect the pliers, and he wins. Period.
Ansom's speciality is coalition building, with him out of the way, the alliance will dissolve, and GK will live to fight another day. Jillian, wanting revenge will set up as a new warlord, and strips abound. We'll see....
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2007-09-23, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Andrewas:
When the Death Star blew up it left the Rebels alive and victorious for a single day. The entire Empire was still left to be defeated (which occurs in V and VI). When the Fellowship broke up, Rohan held off Saruman and Gondor was still fighting.
In Erfworld terms, the best comparison would be to imagine if Luke was blasted to bits just before he got off his shot. The Death Star is still intact, there is no hope of destroying it. Or imagine if Rohan had fell and the defenders of Helm's Deep were slaughtered. Sure, the Fellowship is still mostly intact, the quest to destroy the ring continues, but they've been dealt a mortal blow.
That's pretty much where we're at with Erfworld it seems.
But I also know, that sometimes people start something fully expecting to continue it to completion. But life sometimes gets in the way and slows us down. Perhaps they've simply found that their lives are too busy to accommodate Erfworld.
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2007-09-23, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 78, Page 72
Wow.. SirBel. That would make a lot of sense. Perhaps that's what Stanley meant by 'walking this road alone'.
But then why would there be no sense in disbanding Parson, Wanda and Sizemore?
Maybe what someone said before was right, Stanley has decided to go back to thinking like an infantry, not an overlord. So he'll just abandon Goblin Knob after taking the Arkenpliers?