Avengers: Endgame

[Bartmanhomer]

The writers better not screw up Avengers Endgame just like they did in Infinity War. I'm really giving Avengers a second chance and the trailers look so depressing. But for everyone sake they better not screw up this movie.

[Eldan]

What didn't you like about Infinity War? I think it was probably about as good as it was going to get, apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation. The action was mostly entertaining, they managed to give most of the characters at least some screen time where they did something cool, what else did you expect?

[Florian]

Yeah, Infinity War was quite good, had good writing and pacing, the screen time was evenly balanced, what more do you want?

[Magic_Hat]

The writers better not screw up Avengers Endgame just like they did in Infinity War. I'm really giving Avengers a second chance and the trailers look so depressing. But for everyone sake they better not screw up this movie.

Wait...another person on this globe hates Infinity War? I thought I was the only one! Have I found my (platonic) soul mate?*

*That came out creepier than it was meant to.

Yeah, Infinity War was quite good, had good writing and pacing, the screen time was evenly balanced, what more do you want?

Maybe because Infinity War is the cinematic equivalent of this.*

And by the look of things Endgame is gonna be the cinematic equivalent of this.*

*Don't click the link unless you've seen season 12 of Family Guy or don't care about Family Guy (spoilers).

Seriously though I don't get people. Everything that was "dramatic" in Infinity War is gonna be ctrl+z'd in Endgame. Don't belief me...

Spoiler: MCU Spoilers Because Why Not

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What MCU film is coming out right after Endgame?
Wait didn't this guy die in Infinity War?
And who's playing him?
So same character portrayed by the actor and said character died...
Again I don't know how you can take this film as anything other than awful when the stakes don't really matter and generic bad guy is gonna get killed.

[Eldan]

Well, yeah. True. But then, did anything ever think anything else? We knew Thanos would kill some heroes, we knew they wouldn't leave anyone dead. We knew from the start that they'd bring those people back. There are ways to create drama without murdering people. *shrug*.

In fact, the *poof* scene was one of the least impactful ones in the movie, as far as I'm concerned. That was more setup for the next movie than anything else.

[Bartmanhomer]

What didn't you like about Infinity War? I think it was probably about as good as it was going to get, apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation. The action was mostly entertaining, they managed to give most of the characters at least some screen time where they did something cool, what else did you expect?

Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War.

[Eldan]

It's a two part movie. IF they had won in part one, what would part two be about? Think of it as the second act climax of one really long movie. Or the midpoint of a TV series.

[Bartmanhomer]

It's a two part movie. IF they had won in part one, what would part two be about? Think of it as the second act climax of one really long movie. Or the midpoint of a TV series.

I suppose you have a good point there.

[Magic_Hat]

Well, yeah. True. But then, did anything ever think anything else? We knew Thanos would kill some heroes, we knew they wouldn't leave anyone dead. We knew from the start that they'd bring those people back. There are ways to create drama without murdering people. *shrug*.

In fact, the *poof* scene was one of the least impactful ones in the movie, as far as I'm concerned. That was more setup for the next movie than anything else.

How about some permanency? How about the theme of somethings can't be undone. Death or otherwise some actions/events have never-ending consequences. What's the theme of these two Avengers films that people in the real world can use: find 6 godly macguffins that can do literally everything and you can do literally everything. That or billion dollar movie studios are to cowardly to try anything new or even slightly controversial less it disrupt the masses and not make a million billion dollars.

I mean if you permanently kill off any of these characters that could be impactful and make people appreciate what they have. But if you did that Marvel/Disney couldn't make millions in toy sales. What? You thought movies where a story telling medium and not 2 hour long commercials?

Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War.

Yeah. A movie where the bad guy wins - those are always trash.*

*Yeah, that's sarcasm because it's had to clarify that with just text and not audible speech.

[Eldan]

How about some permanency? How about the theme of somethings can't be undone. Death or otherwise some actions/events have never-ending consequences. What's the theme of these two Avengers films that people in the real world can use: find 6 godly macguffins that can do literally everything and you can do literally everything. That or billion dollar movie studios are to cowardly to try anything new or even slightly controversial less it disrupt the masses and not make a million billion dollars.

I mean if you permanently kill off any of these characters that could be impactful and make people appreciate what they have. But if you did that Marvel/Disney couldn't make millions in toy sales. What? You thought movies where a story telling medium and not 2 hour long commercials?

Absolutely. But is that what you expect from Marvel movies? I'd stand up and applaud them if they decided to leave some of those characters dead. And not just the side ones, some of the main ones. But they won't, and I don't expect them to. The entire Marvel cinematic universe is at heart a stack of fluffy action-comedies. Just very well made ones.

[Z3ro]

Yeah. A movie where the bad guy wins - those are always trash.*

*Yeah, that's sarcasm because it's had to clarify that with just text and not audible speech.

I'm not going to touch your take on the commercialism of movies, but really? Empire Strikes Back is your example of a movie where the bad guys win? They didn't win; their main goal the entire film was capture Luke, which they failed to do. The good guys are mounting a rescue, and we know there's another film, which means even that little bit of drama will be undone at the beginning of the next film. Heck, the only real consequence of Luke's encounter with Vader, getting his hand cut off, gets undone the very next scene!

I don't really see how the bad guys won this won; at best, they managed to put the good guys in a bad spot, but they won nothing. The rebels still have a fleet and all the good guys are still alive. Heck, we don't even get to see a single rebel ship destroyed! Hardly a rousing success for the bad guys.

[Magic_Hat]

Heck, the only real consequence of Luke's encounter with Vader, getting his hand cut off, gets undone the very next scene!

Yeah that, and you know the revelation he's been lied to about his father and he has a direct relation to one of the most evil people in the galaxy. You know - subtext and character development. Things the protagonist has to reflect on that make fights and conflict more interesting so he doesn't just rush in like a video game character and is invincible.

I don't really see how the bad guys won this won; at best, they managed to put the good guys in a bad spot, but they won nothing.

Discovering and destroying their base on Hoth. Plus capturing Solo and humiliating and physically mutilating Luke - the two guys responsible for the destruction of the Death Star.

The rebels still have a fleet and all the good guys are still alive.

Yeah sans the ones that got killed when the Hoth base was discovered.

[Clertar]

I don't really see how the bad guys won this won; at best, they managed to put the good guys in a bad spot, but they won nothing. The rebels still have a fleet and all the good guys are still alive. Heck, we don't even get to see a single rebel ship destroyed! Hardly a rousing success for the bad guys.

To the extent that we consider the rebels won in Star Wars, the Empire won in Empire Strikes Back.

[Z3ro]

Yeah that, and you know the revelation he's been lied to about his father and he has a direct relation to one of the most evil people in the galaxy. You know - subtext and character development. Things the protagonist has to reflect on that make fights and conflict more interesting so he doesn't just rush in like a video game character and is invincible.

Didn't say there wasn't character development; of course there was. Only disputing your argument that they lost.

Discovering and destroying their base on Hoth. Plus capturing Solo and humiliating and physically mutilating Luke - the two guys responsible for the destruction of the Death Star.

Well, I suppose physical humiliation is bad, but hardly a big deal in the lose column. The mutilation is immediately undone, making it less of a problem than the Thanos snap.

Yeah sans the ones that got killed when the Hoth base was discovered.

I mean, maybe, but we're not really shown much of that. They lose a battle, and we can imagine the loses, but it seems like they're fully capable of fighting in the next movie, so they couldn't have been that bad.

To the extent that we consider the rebels won in Star Wars, the Empire won in Empire Strikes Back.

Maybe, but I don't know. A main villain was killed in New Hope, something that didn't happen to the rebels in Empire. Plus they achieved their goal in the movie, destroy the Death Star. The empire's goals in Empire were 1) wipe out the rebellion 2) capture Skywalker. They accomplished neither.

[Maryring]

What didn't you like about Infinity War? I think it was probably about as good as it was going to get, apart from Thanos' nonsensical motivation. The action was mostly entertaining, they managed to give most of the characters at least some screen time where they did something cool, what else did you expect?

Spoiler: All the spoilers

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Not making characters I used to like so utterly unlikeable I might not want to visit their franchise again in the future? (Hi Quill)

Bruce/Hulk being anything more than a joke?

Properly presenting the Hulk so he doesn't seem like a sulky kid who refuses to play because he lost?

Drama that didn't feel pointless or artificial, like all the problems around getting Thor's new hammer reforged? Restarting the forge should be enough. We don't need to stretch it out with a no stakes Thor in a sunbeam, or a randomly missing haft.

The heroes not being stupid to bring Gamora to Thanos rather than as far away from him as possible when she's the only source of the Soul Stone?

In fact everything around Gamora and the soulstone is really bad. From her pointless initial crypticness, to her demanding Quill shoot her, which of course doesn't work, to moments later doing a 180 because of Nebula, to Thanos apparentlyloving her, which is just a painful cliche for the sake of a cliche that doesn't fit with anything seen earlier.

Everything in Wakanda not being a terrible pile of characterization garbage? To mention a few. The shilling of Shuri just made her unlikeable, and everything around Vision's Mind Stone removal, because Cap saying that they "don't trade lives" fall completely flat when they are more than happy to trade the lives of Wakandan redshirts just to save the named character.

And speaking about the destruction of the stones. By raising that as an option, it just makes it clear that everyone is an idiot bending over backwards to let Thanos win. Just make the stones practically indestructible and you don't make everyone look like selfish fools for not trying.

Long story short. I expected plenty more. As is, I'm just left disliking almost everyone in the MCU.

[Dragonus45]

Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War.

To be fair the comic they are adapting literally opens up with Thanos doing The Snap and is about the people in the aftermath handling the changes.

[Bartmanhomer]

To be fair the comic they are adapting literally opens up with Thanos doing The Snap and is about the people in the aftermath handling the changes.

I understand that but I just wish they wouldn't copied every thing in the comics. It would be a very different. But you and everyone else better be right about this movie for everyone sake. I'm not going to waste my money for an IMAX version even if the IMAX version was on 3D to see the writers give us the middle finger just to screw up another crappy ending.

[Dragonus45]

I understand that but I just wish they wouldn't copied every thing in the comics. It would be a very different. But you and everyone else better be right about this movie for everyone sake. I'm not going to waste my money for an IMAX version even if the IMAX version was on 3D to see the writers give us the middle finger just to screw up another crappy ending.

They didn’t copy everything from the comics, really they barely copied anything from the arc other then the basic premise and a few iconic shots like the Silver Surfer landing in the Sanctum Sanctorum. They even changed the big motivation the Thanos has which totally changes the philosophical underpinnings of the plot. If they adapted any less of the story then at that point it would literally not even be an adaptation.

[Bartmanhomer]

They didn’t copy everything from the comics, really they barely copied anything from the arc other then the basic premise and a few iconic shots like the Silver Surfer landing in the Sanctum Sanctorum. They even changed the big motivation the Thanos has which totally changes the philosophical underpinnings of the plot. If they adapted any less of the story then at that point it would literally not even be an adaptation.

Ok. I feel so much better now that you mentioned it.

[GloatingSwine]

To be fair the comic they are adapting literally opens up with Thanos doing The Snap and is about the people in the aftermath handling the changes.

Not quite.

The comic starts with him already having the Infinity Gems, and him doing various things with them to impress Death.

The actual finger snap is about 1/3-1/2 of the way through the story when he remembers that that was why he gathered the gems in the first place.

Some elements of the movie are from the comic (Cap resisting being squashed, almost getting the gauntlet off and failing, though in the comic it was Surfer who tried it and he just rolled a 1 and missed), and the snap and various heroes and people disappearing (including the consequential damage of planes crashing etc).

But this is only partway through the story. In the comic it gets really weird from this point when various eternals and celestials start showing up until dad* comes along and takes all the toys away



* The Living Tribunal

[Dragonus45]

Not quite.

The comic starts with him already having the Infinity Gems, and him doing various things with them to impress Death.

The actual finger snap is about 1/3-1/2 of the way through the story when he remembers that that was why he gathered the gems in the first place.

Some elements of the movie are from the comic (Cap resisting being squashed, almost getting the gauntlet off and failing, though in the comic it was Surfer who tried it and he just rolled a 1 and missed), and the snap and various heroes and people disappearing (including the consequential damage of planes crashing etc).

But this is only partway through the story. In the comic it gets really weird from this point when various eternals and celestials start showing up until dad* comes along and takes all the toys away



* The Living Tribunal

I vaguely remember it happening at the end of the first issue, but it has been ages since I read it. God it would be so surreal if they actually tried to pull in the living tribunal and all those other shenanigans for the movie. No way it’s gonna happen, but it would be great.

[Lurkmoar]

I vaguely remember it happening at the end of the first issue, but it has been ages since I read it. God it would be so surreal if they actually tried to pull in the living tribunal and all those other shenanigans for the movie. No way it’s gonna happen, but it would be great.

The Celestials showing up throwing planets at Thanos would be pretty boss.

[Erys]

Uh hello! Thanos won at the end. That the only reason why I didn't like Infinity War.

I understand that but I just wish they wouldn't copied every thing in the comics. It would be a very different. But you and everyone else better be right about this movie for everyone sake. I'm not going to waste my money for an IMAX version even if the IMAX version was on 3D to see the writers give us the middle finger just to screw up another crappy ending.

Do you judge all media this way?

If it doesn't end the way you want it is crappy and somehow a personal middle finger to you?

Are you going to hate OOTS if the cost for the heroes winning is for your favorite character(s) dying in a way that their soul is undone; or worse, one of the many other factions (mostly evil) win in the end? Will you just dismiss all of the story leading to that point and consider the entire piece of work trash? Seems kind of shallow to me if your answer is 'yes'.

***

Personally, aside from this being two movies connected together- I am glad it ended that way. It was a nice change from the usual last minute 'hero saves the day' trope seen all to often in movies. But then, I also don't hate a movie just because it didn't do what I wanted it too. So, there is that.

[Bartmanhomer]

Do you judge all media this way?

If it doesn't end the way you want it is crappy and somehow a personal middle finger to you?

Are you going to hate OOTS if the cost for the heroes winning is for your favorite character(s) dying in a way that their soul is undone; or worse, one of the many other factions (mostly evil) win in the end? Will you just dismiss all of the story leading to that point and consider the entire piece of work trash? Seems kind of shallow to me if your answer is 'yes'.

***

Personally, aside from this being two movies connected together- I am glad it ended that way. It was a nice change from the usual last minute 'hero saves the day' trope seen all to often in movies. But then, I also don't hate a movie just because it didn't do what I wanted it too. So, there is that.

Not all media. Also I never read OOTS so I can't vouch an opinion on it.

[Erys]

Not all media. Also I never read OOTS so I can't vouch an opinion on it.

Odd, I would have thought anyone willing to make an account here would also read the comic.

But that does make me curious... what media is an exception to your 'please me or you suck' philosophy?

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm guessing you must absolutely loathe season-end cliffhangars, Bartmanhomer.



...

There are people on the forum that don't read the webcomic that the forum exists because of?

Well, I must confess to being slightly surprised. You learn summat new every day.

I mean, granted, this is arguably the best place now for general D&D stuff once WotC and later enworld (I think) keeled, but...

[Bartmanhomer]

Odd, I would have thought anyone willing to make an account here would also read the comic.

But that does make me curious... what media is an exception to your 'please me or you suck' philosophy?

Anime, Toxic shows (such as Judge Judy.) Reality Shows. That about it.

[DataNinja]

There are people on the forum that don't read the webcomic that the forum exists because of?

It's actually the other way 'round, if I'm remembering my history lessons right. The comic was made to drum up interest and attract people to the forum. Of course, generally people come here for the comic first nowadays, I imagine, but it's clear that the original part of it (RPG discussion) still certainly makes up a huge facet of the population.

I do find it surprising that there are people who don't read the comic much, since it seems to appeal to the same demographic, but, as we have seen, those people do exist.

[Erys]

Anime, Toxic shows (such as Judge Judy.) Reality Shows. That about it.

So, if the bad guy in an anime wins (that you want to lose) that is OK... but not in a live action version of a comic (that was designed to be two parts)?

Interesting.

[Bartmanhomer]

So, if the bad guy in an anime wins (that you want to lose) that is OK... but not in a live action version of a comic (that was designed to be two parts)?

Interesting.

I never say that. Now you're putting words in my mouth.