OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

[Elanorea]

Are people unfamiliar with the game “sex marry kill?” It is a juvenile game in which 3 random people are chosen by another, and regardless, you have to choose which one you would do each of those things to. It doesn’t mean anything, it’s a just a silly game (that I have never played, but observed several youngins on my block play) that people play for fun. Based on Belkar’s reaction to Durkon, which was not “I now question your sexual preference,” but actually “heh,” I would heir on the side of “meant to be an offhand joke.”

Has anyone been doubting that the statement was a joke? I mean, regardless of Durkon's general sexual preferences, I have a hard time imagining he would ever seriously consider marrying Haley, Elan, Belkar or V (Roy I can kinda see, they don't say "marry your best friend" for nothing).

[Ironsmith]

Are people unfamiliar with the game “sex marry kill?” It is a juvenile game in which 3 random people are chosen by another, and regardless, you have to choose which one you would do each of those things to. It doesn’t mean anything, it’s a just a silly game (that I have never played, but observed several youngins on my block play) that people play for fun.

My fiance and I have been known to dabble in it, along with a variation that has a fourth person and activity, "serve jail time with", and the condition that you would have to personally carry out the "kill" part in that hypothetical scenario. Yes, we are a straight couple. Yes, we've handed each other full sets of people who are the same sex as us. Yes, we laughed. It's all good fun.

[Pablo360]

My fiance and I have been known to dabble in it, along with a variation that has a fourth person and activity, "serve jail time with", and the condition that you would have to personally carry out the "kill" part in that hypothetical scenario. Yes, we are a straight couple. Yes, we've handed each other full sets of people who are the same sex as us. Yes, we laughed. It's all good fun.

I mean, fair enough, but this is at least a little different; rather than sticking to a predefined ruleset, Durkon is deliberately escalating Belkar's comment and creating the list of people to choose from when one was not presented to begin with. I could still see a straight person making that joke, in theory, but I also think that it's a little on the specific side, considering Belkar was only asking about himself, for it to be nothing more than a spontaneous joke.

[Mightymosy]

@Fyra; Oh my, me misspelling names is gonna become a running gag, isn't it? :-)
I thought I had corrected it after I had posted, now didn't I?? Too slow appearantly

I still don't find the version GW is using
Censeo Carthago delenda est
The closest I have been finding is
Censeo, Carthago delendaest
By my read, it sounds strange without conjunction or a comma.
Think this way: Censeo and est are both fully declinated predicates, one the first person, one the third person. I don't think that works in one sentence unless you make one a dependant sentence.

[Ruck]

You can call it a variation on a theme, or a colorful usage. It for sure is not literal usage.
As I explained, "betting the under" indicates "not likely" and "betting the over" indicates "likely" ... in this usage (idiomatic?)
It has bloody fork all to do with gambling in that context.
Other colorful phrases you may be familiar with:
Putting something in the oven, and then "nuking it."
No actual nuclear reactions are in play.
Being so mad at someone than one exclaims "I'm gonna kill 'em."
No actual intent for homicide exists.


FWIW: It is quite possible that this bit of slang is unique to some parts of Texas ... it is certainly where I picked it up.

Yeah, I didn't read closely enough and see that it's more colloquial. It still drives me nuts because from my perspective "I'll take that bet" is perfectly good, and more accurate, in this situation. Also, my wife has been similarly incorrectly using over/under, probably because she heard me using it a lot.

(And, for the record, I was a longtime Texas resident until very recently.)

[hroþila]

@Fyra; Oh my, me misspelling names is gonna become a running gag, isn't it? :-)
I thought I had corrected it after I had posted, now didn't I?? Too slow appearantly

I still don't find the version GW is using
Censeo Carthago delenda est
The closest I have been finding is
Censeo, Carthago delendaest
By my read, it sounds strange without conjunction or a comma.
Think this way: Censeo and est are both fully declinated predicates, one the first person, one the third person. I don't think that works in one sentence unless you make one a dependant sentence.

Commas are not a thing in Latin, though, so it's up to the modern editor. Personally, I think a comma between censeo and the rest of the phrase would be weird, just as a comma between I think and a comma would be, but every language does this differently - Finnish for example would use a comma. "Carthago delenda est" is the most popular wording around here too, for what it's worth.

[The_Weirdo]

Ohhhkay.

There are two separate clauses here:

"Ceterum censeo" and "Carthago delenda est".

Ceterum cenceo -> Carthago delenda est.

No, there is no need for a comma, because it works just as it does in English:

"I think Carthage should be destroyed", not: "I think, Carthage should be destroyed".

Oddly, it doesn't work that way in Portuguese, where we must add a "that" between the two clauses. But the comma isn't necessary for Latin and wouldn't make sense for it.

[LadyEowyn]

Afaik, the Quenya numbers are singular, plural, partitative plural (for some of a group), and dual (for a natural pair like eyes or arms).

Sometimes I start thinking that I’m an obsessive Tolkien fan. And then I go on the internet and realize I’m not even close.

[Aquillion]

I mean, fair enough, but this is at least a little different; rather than sticking to a predefined ruleset, Durkon is deliberately escalating Belkar's comment and creating the list of people to choose from when one was not presented to begin with. I could still see a straight person making that joke, in theory, but I also think that it's a little on the specific side, considering Belkar was only asking about himself, for it to be nothing more than a spontaneous joke.

While I'd lean towards it being a throwaway gag, I also think it's important to remember that sexuality isn't a simple straight-bi-trans trinary any more than it's a binary - as I mentioned above, it's possible that eg. Durkon is a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale, recognizing that Roy is hot but still having an overall preference for females.

(The Kinsey scale itself is an oversimplification or abstraction too, of course. But it's a slightly more accurate abstraction.)

[KorvinStarmast]

(And, for the record, I was a longtime Texas resident until very recently.)

Hope you didn't move to Ohio ... they say that the Mexican food sucks north of here ... anyway.

[Pablo360]

While I'd lean towards it being a throwaway gag, I also think it's important to remember that sexuality isn't a simple straight-bi-trans trinary any more than it's a binary - as I mentioned above, it's possible that eg. Durkon is a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale, recognizing that Roy is hot but still having an overall preference for females.

(The Kinsey scale itself is an oversimplification or abstraction too, of course. But it's a slightly more accurate abstraction.)

That's definitely how I read it; I was using “bisexual”*as an umbrella term, since more specific terminology that isn't a mouthful doesn't really exist and probably never will.

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Happy New Year all and thanks for yet another excellent strip of OotS.

Spoiler: Possible spoiler?

Show

A thought - I apologize if this has already been discussed by anybody in a previous forum message, but I have not read them all. I just wonder about the meaning of "Belkar not menat long for this world". As far as I have seen it is being discussed when and how he will die. But what if it actually means that Belkar is meant for the OTHER world, the world of the Snarl?

I have nothing to based this idea on other than Odin and Thor doesn's appear to know about the other world as well.

Whay do you think?

[Kish]

Aside from the implications of Belkar being stranded on a world where Laurin detected no life at all, he'd still need to breathe.

[Fyraltari]

Aside from the implications of Belkar being stranded on a world where Laurin detected no life at all, he'd still need to breathe.

Wait, does she have a range on her life-detecting power? Because I assumed that the "no-life" bit was due to the snarl's approach making everyting in the area bugger off. You know like how forest often get suddenly silent to signify that the monster is near?

[Ironsmith]

Wait, does she have a range on her life-detecting power? Because I assumed that the "no-life" bit was due to the snarl's approach making everyting in the area bugger off. You know like how forest often get suddenly silent to signify that the monster is near?

Or possibly it devouring everything in a mile-wide radius. This is an eldritch beast of the apocalypse we're talking about.

[Fyraltari]

Or possibly it devouring everything in a mile-wide radius. This is an eldritch beast of the apocalypse we're talking about.

Same difference, it got the slow ones.

[Liquor Box]

I forgot about that Roy scene, but if you actually look at the page, Haley has the same reaction as Durkon, so I take that your interpretation with a grain of salt. (And don't say that Haley's reaction is because she's already in a relationship, we're both probably smart enough to know that's not how sexuality works.)

Sure. Hayley was interested in one naked man, and not another, which suggests to me that she is interested in men, just not Roy. Durkon recoiled from both naked man (in contrast to his reaction to both women) which I think points toward him not being interested in men. Of course it's possible that Elan (despite being widely considered the best looking guy in the comic) and Roy both happened to not be to his liking, and if a third man was naked Durkon would be interested. But I don't think that's the most likely answer.

And it doesn't really matter for the present question. Even if Elan and Roy just happen to be men who a bisexual Durkon is uninterested in, and Hayley just happens to a female who he is interested in, that is a complete list of all the characters we are trying to rank (other than Belkar and V who I think most people accept are settled).

[Mightymosy]

Sure. Hayley was interested in one naked man, and not another, which suggests to me that she is interested in men, just not Roy. Durkon recoiled from both naked man (in contrast to his reaction to both women) which I think points toward him not being interested in men. Of course it's possible that Elan (despite being widely considered the best looking guy in the comic) and Roy both happened to not be to his liking, and if a third man was naked Durkon would be interested. But I don't think that's the most likely answer.

And it doesn't really matter for the present question. Even if Elan and Roy just happen to be men who a bisexual Durkon is uninterested in, and Hayley just happens to a female who he is interested in, that is a complete list of all the characters we are trying to rank (other than Belkar and V who I think most people accept are settled).

Hmmmmmm....how many females would Durkon need to lust after, and how males would he need to turn down in order for you to call him a heterosexual?

[zimmerwald1915]

(other than Belkar and V who I think most people accept are settled).

Well. Belkar is quite deep in the closet.

[Pablo360]

Sure. Hayley was interested in one naked man, and not another, which suggests to me that she is interested in men, just not Roy. Durkon recoiled from both naked man (in contrast to his reaction to both women) which I think points toward him not being interested in men. Of course it's possible that Elan (despite being widely considered the best looking guy in the comic) and Roy both happened to not be to his liking, and if a third man was naked Durkon would be interested. But I don't think that's the most likely answer.

And it doesn't really matter for the present question. Even if Elan and Roy just happen to be men who a bisexual Durkon is uninterested in, and Hayley just happens to a female who he is interested in, that is a complete list of all the characters we are trying to rank (other than Belkar and V who I think most people accept are settled).

Why not? I mean, aside from the unstated implication that characters are heterosexual unless proven otherwise.

[Ironsmith]

Why not? I mean, aside from the unstated implication that characters are heterosexual unless proven otherwise.

Occam's Razor. That Durkon, a male, would not have any interest in any other males (which is commonplace in men) is a far simpler explanation than that he might have interest in males heretofore unexpressed, and that the two nude males he's encountered thus far are "not his type", and therefore the former is the more likely explanation.

Yeah, yeah, I know, said Razor has seen a lot of abuse, but it kinda works here.

[DSCrankshaw]

I don't think that Durkon needs to like men to rank other men as better marriage material than Belkar, who is, after all, a man.

Heck, right now, there's probably a few men he'd rank as better marriage material than Hilgya.

For what it's worth, I think it was a throwaway joke that Durkon didn't put much thought into. That doesn't mean the Giant didn't put any thought into it. I'm sure he realized that we'd spend days arguing about who it was that Durkon preferred Belkar over. So, mission accomplished.

For the record, my vote is V.

[Fincher]

It's worth noting that the argument I've seen against Hayley (or at least the strongest one I've seen) is that she's chaotic, but the one person we've seen Durkon propose to is arguably more chaotic than Hayley is. Sure, he proposed because she's the mother of his child, but the evidence of him not wanting to marry someone chaotic is actually weaker than the evidence of him not being attracted to men; it's simply that he himself isn't chaotic.

[Ironsmith]

It's worth noting that the argument I've seen against Hayley (or at least the strongest one I've seen) is that she's chaotic, but the one person we've seen Durkon propose to is arguably more chaotic than Hayley is. Sure, he proposed because she's the mother of his child, but the evidence of him not wanting to marry someone chaotic is actually weaker than the evidence of him not being attracted to men; it's simply that he himself isn't chaotic.

My understanding is that it's less "he's not chaotic" and more "he's lawful"... That is to say, his life philosophy is opposed to hers. Worth noting also that he learned the more telling parts of Hylgia's alignment AFTER they'd done the horizontal tango... Up till then, a case could be made for her being nonevil and/or nonchaotic.

[Fincher]

My understanding is that it's less "he's not chaotic" and more "he's lawful"... That is to say, his life philosophy is opposed to hers. Worth noting also that he learned the more telling parts of Hylgia's alignment AFTER they'd done the horizontal tango... Up till then, a case could be made for her being nonevil and/or nonchaotic.

But people sometimes marry people who are different from them. Elan's parents got married, and one was lawful evil while the other was chaotic good. Maybe Durkon is into chaotic women, we don't know.

[Pablo360]

Occam's Razor. That Durkon, a male, would not have any interest in any other males (which is commonplace in men) is a far simpler explanation than that he might have interest in males heretofore unexpressed, and that the two nude males he's encountered thus far are "not his type", and therefore the former is the more likely explanation.

Yeah, yeah, I know, said Razor has seen a lot of abuse, but it kinda works here.

I don't see that as a valid application of Occam's Razor, and here's why.

Rather than looking at the strip as a whole, let's start by focusing on the comic with Roy's resurrection. Taken in the context of Haley and Belkar having a similar reaction, Occam's Razor says that Durkon didn't want to see Roy naked simply because that's weird, and also because Roy is his leader. Nothing to do with attraction or lack thereof.

If we accept that, then there is only one instance where Durkon shows disgust at another man's being naked. Now, Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is Durkon either isn't attracted to Elan or is but still doesn't want to see him running around naked in the middle of a dungeon (because thinking of someone as attractive and wanting to put your hand on their naked body in front of your boss are two different things).

tl;dr your Occam's Razor is dull

[Ruck]

Hope you didn't move to Ohio ... they say that the Mexican food sucks north of here ... anyway.

Heh, these guys played a show at my college once (when I was there)-- mostly they were just really drunk and the lead singer kept talking about how drunk he was.

Wait, does she have a range on her life-detecting power? Because I assumed that the "no-life" bit was due to the snarl's approach making everyting in the area bugger off. You know like how forest often get suddenly silent to signify that the monster is near?

It's not really clear at all what's going on inside the rift, I think. Laurin was scanning an apparent ocean and detected no marine life. We've seen a planet through a different rift, too. I'm still not even sure it's an actual planet or just an illusion, or if the Snarl has, say, become intelligent enough to figure out how to re-create a world, but isn't capable of providing it with life.

Well. Belkar is quite deep in the closet.

Not sure if serious or not, but he seems pretty secure.

[LadyEowyn]

If we really have to have this argument, I’d say the strongest piece of evidence in favour of Durkon being straight rather than bi is in his introduction to BRITF, wher he states that he likes loves Thor and follows that by clarifying that that is in “in a strictly heterosexual ‘buddies’ kind of way, not that there’s anything wrong with the alternative”.

Even if you say that’s just evidence that Durkon is not attracted to Thor, rather than not being attracted to any men - it isn’t the kind of clarification that non-straight men generally feel the need to make.

[Caerulea]

Occam's Razor. That Durkon, a male, would not have any interest in any other males (which is commonplace in men) is a far simpler explanation than that he might have interest in males heretofore unexpressed, and that the two nude males he's encountered thus far are "not his type", and therefore the former is the more likely explanation.

Yeah, yeah, I know, said Razor has seen a lot of abuse, but it kinda works here.

Your evidence for his lack of attraction to males is entirely based on humans. Perhaps he simply prefers dwarves. That said, because of what LadyEowen brought up, I do think that he is probably heterosexual. Not that it matters, as I took that joke to be in the context of mutual preferences not being an issue.

[Elanorea]

If we really have to have this argument, I’d say the strongest piece of evidence in favour of Durkon being straight rather than bi is in his introduction to BRITF, wher he states that he likes loves Thor and follows that by clarifying that that is in “in a strictly heterosexual ‘buddies’ kind of way, not that there’s anything wrong with the alternative”.

Even if you say that’s just evidence that Durkon is not attracted to Thor, rather than not being attracted to any men - it isn’t the kind of clarification that non-straight men generally feel the need to make.

Yeah, that might be the strongest piece of evidence as yet. I was undecided on this before (2 instances of being uncomfortable with male nudity does not really constitute any kind of proof of not being attracted to men), but it doesn't seem likely a non-hetero person would describe his own feelings towards someone as "heterosexual". If he wasn't straight, he'd probably use "platonic" in that sentence.