OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

Badly? "indiscriminate murder spree" is one of those things that will make things worse 100% of the time.

Welp, if one wants a good world, they should not be a sex trafficker.

[Keltest]

Welp, if one wants a good world, they should not be a sex trafficker.

Marriage and Sex are not synonymous.

[The_Weirdo]

Marriage and Sex are not synonymous.

Hang thee, young baggage! disobedient wretch!
I tell thee what: get thee to church o' Thursday,
Or never after look me in the face
And you be mine, I'll give you to my friend;
And you be not, hang, beg, starve, die in the streets!

It does not seem to me like the distinction is relevant at this point.

[Keltest]

It does not seem to me like the distinction is relevant at this point.

There are a great many things that you believe that mystify the greater whole of these forums. Whats one more?

And for the record, he is specifically talking about the wedding ceremony. What happens after that is between her and Paris.

[The_Weirdo]

There are a great many things that you believe that mystify the greater whole of these forums. Whats one more?

And for the record, he is specifically talking about the wedding ceremony. What happens after that is between her and Paris.

Cool. I'm sure Paris will play checkers with her in their wedding night. But sure, he's just a human trafficker. Better now?

[Keltest]

Cool. I'm sure Paris will play checkers with her in their wedding night. But sure, he's just a human trafficker. Better now?

Not until you start arguing honestly.

[The_Weirdo]

Not until you start arguing honestly.

Dude. The man says she is his and he will give her to his friend.

[Keltest]

Dude. The man says she is his and he will give her to his friend.

Until you stop falsely equating marriage with sex trafficking, and other such intellectual dishonesties, I have nothing more to say on the subject.

[The_Weirdo]

Until you stop falsely equating forced marriage with sex trafficking, and other such intellectual dishonesties, I have nothing more to say on the subject.

Fixed that for you. Kind of an important deal there.

[hroþila]

I don't feel replacing "Hilgya" with "Juliette" truly adds so much to the discussion that we should have it again.

[Jasdoif]

I don't feel replacing "Hilgya" with "Juliette" truly adds so much to the discussion that we should have it again.

Yeah; the talk about Shakespeare-related details is making sense out of a lot of the references in Haleo and Julelan.

[Ironsmith]

Except when the vast majority of the takeaway is either "aw its a tragic love story" or "see, hormones make you stupid," it's a pretty big failure as a gang war morality story. Of course, any old hack can make that mistake.

Eh, there doesn't have to be just one takeaway. "Don't hold onto your hate, because it'll hurt the ones you love" is as valid a moral to the story as "hormones make you dumb" or "gang wars are bad" or even "priests, don't marry teenage couples, it doesn't end well".

[The_Weirdo]

Eh, there doesn't have to be just one takeaway. "Don't hold onto your hate, because it'll hurt the ones you love" is as valid a moral to the story as "hormones make you dumb" or "gang wars are bad" or even "priests, don't marry teenage couples, it doesn't end well".

"Don't rush into a fight for your friend." - for Mercutio.
"Don't allow yourself to be treated as property." - for Juliet.
"Don't kill in duels, assassinate and hide the body instead, preferably pinning it on someone else." - For Romeo.
"Don't assume your children will hold onto your grudges for you." - for the Capulets and Montagues.
"Don't allow big, powerful feuding families near a relative of yours to live." - for the duke.
"Make sure everyone's on the same page regarding the plan." - for Romeo, Juliet and the priest.
"Your family is worthless if its whims might get you killed." - for Romeo, Juliet and Thibault.
"Your family is worthless if it tries to force you into marriage." - for Juliet.
"Force your parents to settle their own grudges, by any means necessary." - for Romeo and Juliet.
"Blood is thicker than water, but less thick than molybdenium." - for nearly everyone involved.

[2D8HP]

...insufferable Shakespeare hipsters....

Best kind to dig that jive

Hipster was a good thing!
Don't be uptight!
Dig yourself, anytime before 4:30 in the afternoon is too early!
Will you slip me an ace?
"He just walked in front of that.car!"
"I told you he was in the insurance business"
"Why does that cat have a microphone in his beard?"
Far out man!
Don't have a hang up and lose your wig!
Like crazy!

[Rogar Demonblud]

She was right - in his first scene he admits to offering her money for sex.

Incorrect. In accordance with the bad poetry thing, he's making an allusion to the myth of Zeus seducing Danae by way of a shower of gold (incidentally siring Perseus).

Also, remember the Prince had an agent in each house (Mercutio and Paris). This has been read as him working at egging them on and trying to get them to kill each other enough that he can proscribe both families and seize their assets (for his own pocket, of course).

[The_Weirdo]

Incorrect. In accordance with the bad poetry thing, he's making an allusion to the myth of Zeus seducing Danae by way of a shower of gold (incidentally siring Perseus).

Also, remember the Prince had an agent in each house (Mercutio and Paris). This has been read as him working at egging them on and trying to get them to kill each other enough that he can proscribe both families and seize their assets (for his own pocket, of course).

The prince got what he deserved, then?

Also, another lesson then:

"If you'll have your henchmen try to provoke two big, powerful families into destroying one another, make sure you don't care about the people you're using for the task." - for the prince.

[Ironsmith]

The prince got what he deserved, then?

Also, another lesson then:

"If you'll have your henchmen try to provoke two big, powerful families into destroying one another, make sure you don't care about the people you're using for the task." - for the prince.

Paris and the Prince are two different people.

[Keltest]

The prince got what he deserved, then?

Also, another lesson then:

"If you'll have your henchmen try to provoke two big, powerful families into destroying one another, make sure you don't care about the people you're using for the task." - for the prince.

The Prince made away fine, if somewhat unhappy about the situation. In the end, he got what he claimed to want.

[The_Weirdo]

Paris and the Prince are two different people.

He said the Prince had two people fostering the discord. One of them was Mercutio, who got himself killed. Wasn't he well-liked by the prince? It was sorta my point, if you're gonna foster discord through an agent, make sure you don't care about the agent.

The Prince made away fine, if somewhat unhappy about the situation. In the end, he got what he claimed to want.

You can't always get what you want.
You can't always get what you want.
You can't always get what you want.
But if you try, sometimes, you might find
You get what you claim to want!

[KorvinStarmast]

I do judge you for Love, Actually though.

That wasn't me. Uh, that was you. (And I was not in the film).

Yeah; the talk about Shakespeare-related details is making sense out of a lot of the references in Haleo and Julelan.

*chuckle*

Incorrect. In accordance with the bad poetry thing, he's making an allusion to the myth of Zeus seducing Danae by way of a shower of gold (incidentally siring Perseus).

If that is the origin of gold and shower then I tip my cap belatedly to whomever told that story first.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, the Hellenic word that gets translated as 'golden shower' means rain that's lit by sunlight. I've seen the effect a couple times, and it is pretty.

Of course, the story does imply Danae was sunbathing naked. I guess she didn't want tan lines?

[Peelee]

That wasn't me. Uh, that was you

That was Ruck, more accurately. The judging is for not calling it the best yadda yadda. Still, my bad.

Now I'm judging you for getting that wrong.

[jwhouk]

I skip entire pages of posts in this thread and I really don't miss much.

Right now we're in "reconnect" mode, and Belkar's the one who gets the first set of lines with Durkon. The discussion is just filler, IMHO.

[Ironsmith]

He said the Prince had two people fostering the discord. One of them was Mercutio, who got himself killed. Wasn't he well-liked by the prince? It was sorta my point, if you're gonna foster discord through an agent, make sure you don't care about the agent.

I don't actually remember that being part of the play, but it does lend an extra layer to his provocation of Tybalt (or his response to Tybalt's provocation).

Which reminds me:
"Keep a lid on it." -for Tybalt

[The Extinguisher]

The_Weirdo, as much as i disagree with your trying to do, i gotta say your ability to stay on message in the face of more than a few barbed comments and petty insults is pretty impressive.

[The_Weirdo]

The_Weirdo, as much as i disagree with your trying to do, i gotta say your ability to stay on message in the face of more than a few barbed comments and petty insults is pretty impressive.

Having had professionals try to destroy my sanity helps. Being stubborn keeps you sane.

[Sindeloke]

@Peelee, it may just be the context you bring to the play. I talked to a guy once who did prison outreach by teaching inmates theatre and he said R&J is generally the most successful Shakespeare he does - most people he works with actually don't know the story until they put the production together, but they tend to grok the message immediately. Because gang conflict is a huge feature in the lives of the average teenage convict, they can see clearly how much it motivates and permeates the plot. If the average modern civilian doesn't see that it's likely less to do with Shakespeare and more to do with familial vendettas not really being on our radar. Hamlet wouldn't seem like a particularly good play in a culture with no understanding of royal inheritance either.

[Ironsmith]

Having had professionals try to destroy my sanity helps.

What would that be in reference to?

[The_Weirdo]

What would that be in reference to?

A fairly complicated past. But that lends no credence to any of my statements; if anything it lends less. That being said, those experiences made me (thankfully) stubborn.

[woweedd]

Please, tell me what Romeo and Julie knew about each other than than their looks, names, and eventually, what family they belonged to.

I...Don't see how that matters to the discussion of it being a well-written play. Yeah, they're stupid teenagers who made decisions impulsively based on a combination of genuine love and not a small amount of sheer lust. In the original, that's their folly. That they shouldn't have loved. But, in Shakespeare's version, we're meant to sympathize. Yes, their decision making was stupid, and they fell in love at first sight based on arbitrary qualities, as teenagers are wont to do. But, in Shakespeare's view, they don't deserve to die for it. The tragedy in that play is that they died because the structure of society didn't allow them to work out their standard teenage issues in a constructive fashion. If they had been born in a more enlightened time, their short relationship may have died out in due time, or it may hebv blossomed into true love. But the fact is, by the cosmic injustice of the universe, they never got the chance to find out, and that is the tragedy. They are two passionate lovers who, and they merely been a little less passionate, might have survived. Like all tragic heroes, they are laid low by the very qualities that made them heroic.