Do You Get Upset When Other Players Want To Play A Tier 1 Class?

[Mordaedil]

For whatever reason, there's this thing called Planar Ally, for when you want to deal with creatures that are already on your side/team. /derailing over

I wish the rules would explicitly state this, but I've allowed good wizards to research this spell and sorcerers to pick it as one of their spells known, if they bar planar binding from their list.

[Eldariel]

The problem isn't that the spell is powerful, the problem is that the spell is supposed to be "power for a price", but most DMs don't want to spend time dealing with the fallout of the "for a price" part, and just leave it as "power". Ideally, if the DM can't be bothered dealing with the "for a price" part, they should just ban the spell, citing that as the reason, but many DMs, especially newer ones, might not realise the issues surrounding just handwaving the "for a price" part until it's too late, only to come here and complain about how broken the spell is.

And generally, nobody likes being randomly kidnapped and forced to do another person's bidding, even if the bidding is their favourite thing. Imagine you just love painting picturesqe panoramas. Now someone kidnaps you, plonks you in front of a scenic landscape and demands you start painting or else. You'll probably do it, but you definitely won't be happy about it. Short of actually paying the creature in bribes of some sort, at which point you may as well just be hiring NPC adventurers either way, it's most likely going to be attempting to subvert your commands, and planar binding isn't exactly a finely detailed contract, it's a "compulsion to perform a service", and simply ordering it to follow your commands means each and every individual command you give can be subverted in some way, which very much does decrease the effectiveness of the spell.

Also, nitpicking realism when, in this context its quite obviously conflated with verisimilitude? Come on. That word is a pita to type out, much easier to just say realistic than verisimilitude-ish.

Sure but at the same time, Demons are depicted as jumping at a chance of getting to the material plane to wreak havoc. If they have to put up with some guy asking them to kill and murderize and perhaps maim and desecrate a bunch of things they'd want to kill and murderize and maim and desecrate anyways, that doesn't sound too out of character for them. Particularly if said guy is perverted by these indirect actions. Cunning creatures can subvert commands to a point but not indefinitely and they're certainly under no compulsion to do so. If you paid them for their services (something the spell even has specific mechanics for) in something they care about and don't restrict them from doing things they want to do, the spell is working in their advantage as much as yours. Even forced contracts can be desirable when mutually beneficial and particularly immortal evil outsiders have little reason not to utilise those opportunities since they are intrinsically incapable of entering the material plane and that's where they have to be to do the stuff they really wanna do (corrupt/pervert mortals depending on their particular alignment).

[16bearswutIdo]

It's fine if they want to play one of the tier 1 classes. It's not fine if they want to play a tier 1 class like a protagonist that solves every single problem. But I wouldn't say I get "upset."

Most of my players know not to break the game. Any time we've had a wizard, they've decided to specialize in one of the "worse" schools (IE. evocation, necromancy, etc). No one really plays beatstick clerics, and my one druid player is a roleplayer and not a rollplayer.

Most of our games end up somewhere near tier 3-4 in terms of power, regardless of what people pick.

[Crake]

For whatever reason, there's this thing called Planar Ally, for when you want to deal with creatures that are already on your side/team. /derailing over

Sure, but that comes with a monetary cost, which a fighter could equally use to hire another adventurer, essentially "evening the odds". At that point it less becomes about "this spell is overpowered" and more "hiring extra dudes is overpowered". Planar ally just lets you hire dudes via interplanar craigslist.

Sure but at the same time, Demons are depicted as jumping at a chance of getting to the material plane to wreak havoc. If they have to put up with some guy asking them to kill and murderize and perhaps maim and desecrate a bunch of things they'd want to kill and murderize and maim and desecrate anyways, that doesn't sound too out of character for them. Particularly if said guy is perverted by these indirect actions. Cunning creatures can subvert commands to a point but not indefinitely and they're certainly under no compulsion to do so. If you paid them for their services (something the spell even has specific mechanics for) in something they care about and don't restrict them from doing things they want to do, the spell is working in their advantage as much as yours. Even forced contracts can be desirable when mutually beneficial and particularly immortal evil outsiders have little reason not to utilise those opportunities since they are intrinsically incapable of entering the material plane and that's where they have to be to do the stuff they really wanna do (corrupt/pervert mortals depending on their particular alignment).

I already covered that in my post, and again just above in this post. If you're paying for services, you're not doing anything anyone else can't already do by just going into town and hiring other adventurers.

[stack]

Sure, but that comes with a monetary cost, which a fighter could equally use to hire another adventurer, essentially "evening the odds". At that point it less becomes about "this spell is overpowered" and more "hiring extra dudes is overpowered". Planar ally just lets you hire dudes via interplanar craigslist.

I now want an interplanar craigslist spell. Post general parameters and proposed payment, DM rolls to see if there are any available outsiders willing and able to take it. Sure, maybe you get a slaad when you wanted an elemental, but there is no coercion step.

[umbergod]

No, because I'm the biggest optimizer I know, and I still regularly gimp my casters to a t2-3 power level via spell, feat and prestige class choices :p

[Psyren]

Sure but at the same time, Demons are depicted as jumping at a chance of getting to the material plane to wreak havoc. If they have to put up with some guy asking them to kill and murderize and perhaps maim and desecrate a bunch of things they'd want to kill and murderize and maim and desecrate anyways, that doesn't sound too out of character for them.

It's not, but you're glossing over the fact that they want to maim and murderize the guy binding them every bit as much as, if not more than, the actual targets. And yes, that behavior is absolutely destructive to the demon's fun in the long-term (since it means fewer mortals willing to bring them into the material in the future) but they don't care; biting the hand that fed them is just in their nature, unless they're forcibly prevented from doing so - might makes right.

Preventing that requires a level of vigilance from the caster that almost always has some kind of repercussions in fictional portrayals.

[JMS]

Few exceptions to the general rule. 100% of T1 haters I've met are crybaby scrubs who leeroy jenkins into combat and cry like a ***** when that strategy conflicts with my AoE spells or I kill someone with summoned creatures instead of letting him kill it. They all have absolutely no interest in learning how to play the game like properly outfitting their character with WBL that grant flight and such and instead ***** that I should prepare 100% of my spells with fly and magic weapon instead of summon monster.

You misunderstood me. I was referring to leeroy jenkins T5s who don't want to read about magic items and want to force a low-op playstyle on the whole group and calls you a T1 munchkin if you don't do as he says. Not new players playing wizards.

I would consider myself someone who dislikes T1, in part because I get into arm races with them. I happily play T3, and will recommend Grod the Giant’s work on balance (See my sig for a link), and have no problems with playing smart, or building smart (And fully acknowledge the need for smart WbL use, having built for epic games).
I just feel that I play D&D to have fun and come up with solutions to challenges, and if I run a wizard, it will be too easy for me to have fun. Of course, I do have a arms race problem with Tier ones, so... I guess I’m a bit of a munchkin who doesn’t want to be one, and avoided Tier 1 because of that.

[RoboEmperor]

I would consider myself someone who dislikes T1, in part because I get into arm races with them. I happily play T3, and will recommend Grod the Giant’s work on balance (See my sig for a link), and have no problems with playing smart, or building smart (And fully acknowledge the need for smart WbL use, having built for epic games).
I just feel that I play D&D to have fun and come up with solutions to challenges, and if I run a wizard, it will be too easy for me to have fun. Of course, I do have a arms race problem with Tier ones, so... I guess I’m a bit of a munchkin who doesn’t want to be one, and avoided Tier 1 because of that.

I clarified later that when I meant T1 hater, I don't mean people who dislike T1s, I mean actual people who spew hate the moment they hear you're a T1 class.

[Jack_McSnatch]

No complaints from me. Wizards and priests are kind of a fantasy staple. But if I have a player whom I know will abuse their powers to the detriment of others, I generally try to do something about it. It's been said by multiple people so far and I'll echo it. There's nothing wrong with playing a class you want to play, but d&d is a team game. Everybody should be having fun and getting to use their abilities. Problems arise when a player wants to be the anime protagonist and solve every problem on their own.

[GrayDeath]

A lot of in depth answers were already given, so let me only give a very short one, and add an anecdote.

Answer: Only if the DM said "No T 1 Classes" and someone comes to the game with one (or a T2 optimized to such a degree its indestinguishable from a T1), but that is not mainly a system but a player problem.


Anecdote: You dont need the Disparity between a batman Wizard and a Fighter for some players to get on the Jeleousy Train and wreck a group.

Almost 10 years ago our olong running group died due to what started as a fellow Wizard Player being angry at the fact that my Elven Wizard was a bit better at Magic and a better face (different System, yes, my Elf had better numbers, but he also was an almost pure Divination/Transmutation Caster in a System where Transmutation was much and Divination to a medicum amount worse than D&D, with good Combat stats, but a Quarterstaff and little else, while the jeaolus guy had a Battle Wizard in Full magical Plate armor without disadvantages AND a magical Weapon (rare) AND backing by a medium Church....so yeah...^^).
It escalated, and a year later the group crumbled (which strangely surprised everyone but that one palyer and the DM, as the other 3 palyers and I had only detected small, in our view unimportant, problems....).

So yeah, if all other things are equal, T1^Classes may be the problem, but usually they are not.

[JMS]

I clarified later that when I meant T1 hater, I don't mean people who dislike T1s, I mean actual people who spew hate the moment they hear you're a T1 class.

Sorry, my bad

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's not, but you're glossing over the fact that they want to maim and murderize the guy binding them every bit as much as, if not more than, the actual targets. And yes, that behavior is absolutely destructive to the demon's fun in the long-term (since it means fewer mortals willing to bring them into the material in the future) but they don't care; biting the hand that fed them is just in their nature, unless they're forcibly prevented from doing so - might makes right.

Preventing that requires a level of vigilance from the caster that almost always has some kind of repercussions in fictional portrayals.

That does bring up a good question, why not bind Angels instead?

[noob]

That does bring up a good question, why not bind Angels instead?

Because the angel would probably be helping other people somewhere else if you did not bind it.
So it is a story of ethics.
Or you could instead bind elemental which hates you too but should they try to get revenge they are in for a bad time and also it is probably easier to convince them to deal non lethal damage than demons.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Because the angel would probably be helping other people somewhere else if you did not bind it.
So it is a story of ethics.

But there are infinite angels.

And summoning an Angel is a good act, since the spell gains the same subtype as the creature you bind.

[Crake]

That does bring up a good question, why not bind Angels instead?

I dunno about you, but in my games, angels can, and have been, just as problematic as fiends sometimes. Angels don't just hang about in heaven idly, they're usually doing something, and by pulling them away you can cause them a multitude of problems, including but not limited to: arousing suspicion from the community they were stealthily protecting, because they suddenly disappeared from the middle of the town square, taking them away from a battle against evil on the planes, stopping them from saving someone who was critically injured in battle, possibly resulting in their death.

Angels don't take lightly to being randomly ripped away from what they were doing, and may well view doing so as an act of evil that needs to be punished.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I dunno about you, but in my games, angels can, and have been, just as problematic as fiends sometimes.

They're still good aligned, and if they're lawful they won't backstab you just because you annoyed them.

Angels don't take lightly to being randomly ripped away from what they were doing, and may well view doing so as an act of evil that needs to be punished.

I guess it depends why you bound them. I seriously doubt most angels are going to object to helping you slay the Dark Demon Lord of Grimdark and Skulls.

[Crake]

They're still good aligned, and if they're lawful they won't backstab you just because you annoyed them.



I guess it depends why you bound them. I seriously doubt most angels are going to object to helping you slay the Dark Demon Lord of Grimdark and Skulls.

Backstab, probably not, but they may well be significantly more stubborn, as for helping you slay the dark demon lord of grimdark and skulls, maybe, but then, why not just planeshift to heaven and beseech the powers that be for aid, rather than yoinking them out of the blue like that. A lawful angel especially may not wish to risk their life killing the dark demon lord of grimdark and skulls because it would mean potentially leaving their post empty, which may put other's lives at risk, so they may actually see that task as unreasonable, while a chaotic good eladrin would see the very notion of being compelled into service an abhorrent act of tyranny.

To put it shortly: Kidnapping anyone will just cause ill will and animosity, and if you think planar binding is anything other than kidnapping, you're not reading the spell correctly.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Backstab, probably not, but they may well be significantly more stubborn,

More stubborn than demons and devils?

as for helping you slay the dark demon lord of grimdark and skulls, maybe, but then, why not just planeshift to heaven and beseech the powers that be for aid, rather than yoinking them out of the blue like that.

Because you're a Wizard and Planar Binding is a 6th level spell, while Plane Shift is a 7th level one.

A lawful angel especially may not wish to risk their life killing the dark demon lord of grimdark and skulls because it would mean potentially leaving their post empty, which may put other's lives at risk, so they may actually see that task as unreasonable, while a chaotic good eladrin would see the very notion of being compelled into service an abhorrent act of tyranny.

You negotiate for their service as part of the spell.

To put it shortly: Kidnapping anyone will just cause ill will and animosity, and if you think planar binding is anything other than kidnapping, you're not reading the spell correctly.

I prefer to think of it as an exciting and unexpected career opportunity.

[Crake]

More stubborn than demons and devils?

Honest, in my experience? Yes.

Because you're a Wizard and Planar Binding is a 6th level spell, while Plane Shift is a 7th level one.

If you're a wizard casting regular planar binding, you're probably not fighting the demon lord of grimdark and skulls

You negotiate for their service as part of the spell.

Ever heard the phrase "we don't negotiate with terrorists"?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Honest, in my experience? Yes.

Weird, I would probably roleplay angels as being more reasonable if I was DMing. To each their own, I guess.

If you're a wizard casting regular planar binding, you're probably not fighting the demon lord of grimdark and skulls

Hey, no one ever said he lived up to that name.

Ever heard the phrase "we don't negotiate with terrorists"?

Who follows that advice.

[King of Nowhere]

Backstab, probably not, but they may well be significantly more stubborn, as for helping you slay the dark demon lord of grimdark and skulls, maybe, but then, why not just planeshift to heaven and beseech the powers that be for aid, rather than yoinking them out of the blue like that.

Which is one of the reasons I prefer to handwave the absence of angels as a "no interference" clause among the gods. Something like "I gave you spell power just so you could do yoour job without asking for help", or "if I could send my solars in the mortal plane, I would not need clerics to do my bidding". Otherwise you have to justify all the time why the various gods don't all send hordes of their high level planar minions

[noob]

The reason why so few people decide "now I am going to plane shift to heaven to recruit angels to fight the demon lord" is that Gms does not all like to suddenly have to try to decide what heavens looks like where you land and then start finding which angels you meet and what kinds of stuff they want or are doing.
Basically you are chewing in half the progress of the campaign until either you get tons of angels because you had money and convincing words or the gm is too angry at you and no angel wants to help you to fight the ultimate final demon lord of infinitely evil evilness and poor innocent young angel torturing and in the former case it bogs down the fight and make the campaign be anti climatic unless the gm adds more demons(which slows down even more the final fight) and in the latter it slowed the campaign down for no purpose.

Which is one of the reasons I prefer to handwave the absence of angels as a "no interference" clause among the gods. Something like "I gave you spell power just so you could do yoour job without asking for help", or "if I could send my solars in the mortal plane, I would not need clerics to do my bidding". Otherwise you have to justify all the time why the various gods don't all send hordes of their high level planar minions

There is only 22 solars in the whole multiverse it is just that you are able to encounter randomly a whole lot of them because they constantly change disguises and use illusions to look as if they were at a lot of places.
Then lower angels are not here because it is actually unsafe to fight demons and devils so they go other-were and do good stuff and hope the devils and demons does the job of killing each other by themselves.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The reason why so few people decide "now I am going to plane shift to heaven to recruit angels to fight the demon lord" is that Gms does not all like to suddenly have to try to decide what heavens looks like where you land and then start finding which angels you meet and what kinds of stuff they want or are doing.

Well, the books have descriptions of the planes and encounter tables for each one.

[Psyren]

And summoning an Angel is a good act, since the spell gains the same subtype as the creature you bind.

Whoa there. By that logic, casting Holy Word in a pet shop and permanently blinding/paralyzing/slaughtering all the animals inside is a Good act too In other words, there's a lot more to the morality of a given spell than its descriptor.

I'm not saying I agree that binding an angel is necessarily depriving some other spot in the universe of its goodness, just taking issue with this specific argument. My personal viewpoint is that Planar Binding should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis - angels aren't opposed to being bound by good mortals because that spell exists so mortals can cut through the celestial red tape that keeps them from otherwise "playing in the sandbox." But if you're using the spell frivolously or for personal gain, the angel may indeed take offense.

[noob]

Well, the books have descriptions of the planes and encounter tables for each one.

It stills slows down the game especially since the description is not 100% complete.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Whoa there. By that logic, casting Holy Word in a pet shop and permanently blinding/paralyzing/slaughtering all the animals inside is a Good act too In other words, there's a lot more to the morality of a given spell than its descriptor.

I'm not saying I agree that binding an angel is necessarily depriving some other spot in the universe of its goodness, just taking issue with this specific argument. My personal viewpoint is that Planar Binding should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis - angels aren't opposed to being bound by good mortals because that spell exists so mortals can cut through the celestial red tape that keeps them from otherwise "playing in the sandbox." But if you're using the spell frivolously or for personal gain, the angel may indeed take offense.

Well, let's not pretend that D&D has an especially nuanced view of morality.

[noob]

Well, let's not pretend that D&D has an especially nuanced view of morality.

Those pets had it coming for their neutral style of life.
Also afterwards the pets who survived are sent to a redeemery(the merchant selling those creatures is sent to the redeemery too.)

[Psyren]

Well, let's not pretend that D&D has an especially nuanced view of morality.

It's nuanced enough for your DM to make judgments. It's then up to you if you agree with those judgments, or if you want a new DM. I don't think a board game really needs to go further than that.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Seems like most people don't care much about T1 classes, so I'll play devils advocate and provide a dissenting opinion.

As a player that prefers martial and skill-monkey characters, I wouldn't say that I get upset when people want to play a T1 class, but I do often feel something like dismay that my entire build could be rendered redundant accidentally. For example, was playing a pirate themed campaign and one of my friends wanted to play druid. The group was aiming for T3 on average, but she pointed out that she was an inexperienced player and taking an un-optimized race with a level adjustment so it would probably be fine. Even while roleplaying, choosing thematic spells, and not min-maxing at all, she still regularly solved encounters of all kinds with a single first level or even 0-level spell.

An inexperienced player with an unoptimized build who was a good player (in the sense of roleplaying and being a good sport) playing a T1 class still outshone the rest of our (decently optimized) T3 party by accident, so yeah I am pretty wary of T1 classes.