Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!

[HouseRules]

Effective Character Level (ECL): A creature's effective character level is the sum of its level adjustment, Hit Dice, and class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment, and determining how much experience the character needs to gain a new level. All three of those functions use effective character level instead.

Effective Character Level (ECL): This number represents a creature’s overall power relative to that of a character from the Player’s Handbook. A creature with an ECL of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature’s ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level.

[Crake]

This argument has been done to death, people have picked their sides by this point, and little, if nothing is going to persuade them, so I'm not sure what your plan is for this thread.

[HouseRules]

I keep forgetting that this is a RAI forum that always makes RAI even when RAW is placed in front of them.

[ShurikVch]

I keep forgetting that this is a RAI forum that always makes RAI even when RAW is placed in front of them.

So true!

For example, they're not just commonly using 3.0 version of Energy Substitution feat (nothing wrong with it, I'm preferring some 3.0 stuff over 3.5 versions too), but have the audacity to insist the mechanics, actually, really doesn't changed since 3.0 at all - even when provided with highlighted quotes!

[Crake]

I keep forgetting that this is a RAI forum that always makes RAI even when RAW is placed in front of them.

You know there are people on both sides of this argument, right? There are probably also a few people like me who see that either a) they don't add to ECL and are overly strong, or b) they do add to ECL are are incredibly bad, and thus just decide not to use them at all, because in either case they're bad for the game.

[HouseRules]

So true!

For example, they're not just commonly using 3.0 version of Energy Substitution feat (nothing wrong with it, I'm preferring some 3.0 stuff over 3.5 versions too), but have the audacity to insist the mechanics, actually, really doesn't changed since 3.0 at all - even when provided with highlighted quotes!

My Greatest House Rule:
Anything in 3.0 is always in play unless 3.5 overrules it. However, anything in 3.0 that is omitted in 3.5 is still in play, such as Prestige Classes need to

1. Satisfy Prerequisites at all Levels
2. Does not have XP Penalty

Premium Edition is 3.75.


Bloodlines are suppose to work with Level Adjustment buy offs.

[noob]

My Greatest House Rule:
Anything in 3.0 is always in play unless 3.5 overrules it. However, anything in 3.0 that is omitted in 3.5 is still in play, such as Prestige Classes need to

1. Satisfy Prerequisites at all Levels
2. Does not have XP Penalty

Premium Edition is 3.75.

Does not have XP Penalty

Written on the 3.5 srd.

Also do you lose your prcs when you are hit by stat drain that makes you stop qualifying for the prerequisite feats?
That could be complex as heck when the monster hits with stat drain and that you have to recalculate 20 things because you are no longer filling all the prerequisites for prc 1 which prevents you from taking prc 3 but not prc 2 and so on and which ends up making an loop for which you calculate the limit of the loop then by the time you calculated all that the undead says sorry and goes away crying?

[OgresAreCute]

You know there are people on both sides of this argument, right? There are probably also a few people like me who see that either a) they don't add to ECL and are overly strong, or b) they do add to ECL are are incredibly bad, and thus just decide not to use them at all, because in either case they're bad for the game.

ECL-related mechanics end up in that situation a bit often for my tastes, like cohorts can't catch up after buying off LA since their new, lower level means they get less XP. You could, however, get a cohort with his LA already bought off and XP caught up. So it ends up in this situation where the cost is either overly punishing or completely free, which I don't think is a good idea.

Personally, I hate bloodlines because they basically add nothing. Their abilities are pretty much total rubbish, even if you get 20 levels "worth" of abilities for 3 actual levels. Sorry, WotC, but "+2 to diplomacy with Silver Dragons" is never a worthwhile ability. I think it could be salvageable if they had actually worthwhile abilities and maybe added some kind of hit die when you took a level in it too.

[noob]

ECL-related mechanics end up in that situation a bit often for my tastes, like cohorts can't catch up after buying off LA since their new, lower level means they get less XP. You could, however, get a cohort with his LA already bought off and XP caught up. So it ends up in this situation where the cost is either overly punishing or completely free, which I don't think is a good idea.

Personally, I hate bloodlines because they basically add nothing. Their abilities are pretty much total rubbish, even if you get 20 levels "worth" of abilities for 3 actual levels. Sorry, WotC, but "+2 to diplomacy with Silver Dragons" is never a worthwhile ability. I think it could be salvageable if they had actually worthwhile abilities and maybe added some kind of hit die when you took a level in it too.

The titan bloodline is one bloodline that have a worthwhile ability: you can use gargantuan hammers even if you are fine sized so you can get all the punch while being small and sealthy.

[HouseRules]

It does not matter that bloodline is relatively useless. It is useful because they count as Hit Dice (while not giving any actual hit die, but counts towards skill cap), and Caster Level to all Spellcaster Classes, and anything else scale-able by level.

Even if bloodline is relatively useless, Mundane is also relatively useless. If you say one, why not the other?

Edit: Old School has a term for ECL: Adjusted Hit Dice. Yeah, the concept that casters are stronger than Mundane requires monster's Hit Dice to be adjusted for the calculation of experience.

[noob]

It does not matter that bloodline is relatively useless. It is useful because they count as Hit Dice (while not giving any actual hit die, but counts towards skill cap), and Caster Level to all Spellcaster Classes.

Even if bloodline is relatively useless, Mundane is also relatively useless. If you say one, why not the other?

bloodlines progress any class feature you have as if you had a bunch of extra levels in it(but it does not gives you extra class features) so it does not progress only spellcaster level: it would also progress the boost in ac from the monk class feature and a bunch of other things like that.

[Master O'Laughs]

From what I gather (since I had just made a thread about it), if you were doing something like a Supermount build, or you had several instances sneak attack, it could help tremendously.

[Crake]

Bloodlines are suppose to work with Level Adjustment buy offs.

Can you point out where it says anywhere that bloodlines are supposed to work with LA? Or are you doing what you just had a go at the rest of the forum for doing, making RAI assumptions?

For a system that increases certain things as if you had a higher HD, like skill cap, caster level, and other class related abilities, like advancing initiator level by 1/2, I wouldn't allow bloodline "LA" buyoff any more than I'd allow RHD buyoff. But at the same time, I don't use bloodlines because they're poorly conceived and even more poorly written.

[Bronk]

Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level.

I guess 12 replies means we're doing this?

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does

That's what you were missing. It's followed by a number of paragraphs that don't include ECL or LA.

As written, bloodlines are awesome. There's no limit to how many you can take, and the way XP works, you can technically get them all for free. But, as always, and especially for variant rules, individual DMs can implement bloodlines in their game - or not - whichever way they think is best.

[zlefin]

Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level.

are you looking for a debate?
just making a public service announcement?
trying to assert your opinion is correct?
or something else?
i.e. what is your goal for this thread?

[KillianHawkeye]

If they're specially called out as not increasing character level, then they don't increase effective character level either. Full stop.

ECL = Character Level + Level Adjustment.

[Uncle Pine]

The titan bloodline is one bloodline that have a worthwhile ability: you can use gargantuan hammers even if you are fine sized so you can get all the punch while being small and sealthy.

You can also do that by casting Enlarge Weapon (CS) while wielding a sizing warhammer and then activating the sizing ability. The two main differences being that this can be done with any type and size of weapon (not just Gargantuan warhammers) and that you either need to persist Enlarge Weapon or use a standard and swift action to activate the combo.

[HouseRules]

By RAW:

The Object of X Volume fits into Y Space for Z Size Category.

Size	Volume	Space
Fine	0.5-foot cube	0.5-foot square
Diminutive	1-foot cube	1-foot square
Tiny	2-foot cube	2.5-foot square
Small	4-foot cube	5-foot square
Medium	8-foot cube	5-foot square
Large	16-foot cube	10-foot square
Huge	32-foot cube	15-foot square
Gargantuan	64-foot cube	20-foot square
Colossal	128-foot cube	30-foot square

Yes, you could fit those larger objects into a smaller space than them.

Mechanical Units of Measures
Thickness of Materials: multiples of 1 inch.
Height: 1 foot.
Distance: 5 foot.

[Ruethgar]

The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

ECL is neither an ability nor entirely level based so it is not affected.

[HouseRules]

3.0 Rules Effective Character Level = Hit Dice + Class Level + Level Adjustment

3.5 Rules Effective Character Level = Hit Dice + Class Level - (Overlap between HD and Class Level) + Level Adjustment

Hit Dice (including Class Level) = Hit Dice + Class Level - (Overlap between HD and Class Level)

Some Class Levels gives Hit Dice, and others do not. The issues is that Hit Dice is the sum of Racial Hit Dice and Class Level Hit Dice leads to double counting in Savage Species definition even though examples does not double count, the definition could be interpreted to include double counting.

[noob]

Do not forget that racial hit dice is just levels into a class that have no class features.

[Buufreak]

So you even directly quoted the line about bloodline levels not increasing character level as other levels do, but still are going to pick this fight and call people out as RAI supporters when they don't agree with you? Yeah, that's a great way to win an argument.

[HouseRules]

So you even directly quoted the line about bloodline levels not increasing character level as other levels do, but still are going to pick this fight and call people out as RAI supporters when they don't agree with you? Yeah, that's a great way to win an argument.

ECL says CLASS LEVELS not CHARACTER LEVELS for all of those that cannot tell RAW from RAI.

[Buufreak]

Right, and the text you quoted legitimately reads "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." It is blatantly explaining how there is a difference, and that they do not count towards "class level," which as you are arguing (rather abrasively) is the term used when describing ECL.

Further, if you really want to get into the specifics, ECL is defined as Effective Character Level, so trying to argue that it only refers to class levels is faulty in basis. For further reading, feel free to bounce over to the online glossary available here.

[HouseRules]

Right, and the text you quoted legitimately reads "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." It is blatantly explaining how there is a difference, and that they do not count towards "class level," which as you are arguing (rather abrasively) is the term used when describing ECL.

Further, if you really want to get into the specifics, ECL is defined as Effective Character Level, so trying to argue that it only refers to class levels is faulty in basis. For further reading, feel free to bounce over to the online glossary available here.

RAW still defines as CLASS LEVEL, not CHARACTER LEVEL.

[KillianHawkeye]

RAW still defines as CLASS LEVEL, not CHARACTER LEVEL.

And character level is defined as racial Hit Dice plus class levels. Bloodline levels are specifically stated to be class levels that don't add to character level. Ergo, they do not add to ECL.

Continuing to shout about this will not make you right.

I can't believe I have to argue about RAW with a guy who calls himself HouseRules.

[Buufreak]

Whelp, I tried. I even gave a direct link to the actual rules text and definitions. If you can't accept that, not much to do here but walk away. Take care with that chip on your shoulder, though, eventually someone will flick it clean off and then gods know what you'll have to do then.

[HouseRules]

A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing.

Nope: Character Level = sum of class level exclusively. No Racial Hit Dice is involved in the glossary definition.

[flappeercraft]

"Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level." -House Rules

I guess 12 replies means we're doing this?

"Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does" -UA

That's what you were missing. It's followed by a number of paragraphs that don't include ECL or LA.

As written, bloodlines are awesome. There's no limit to how many you can take, and the way XP works, you can technically get them all for free. But, as always, and especially for variant rules, individual DMs can implement bloodlines in their game - or not - whichever way they think is best.

IMO this is what it means as per RAW. You add all class levels to ECL as a general rule. However, specific trumps general and there is a specific rule with bloodlines that makes them not progress character level like regular classes do, relevant quotes in the quoted post, however I had to add them in since you can't keep quotes in another quote.

[KillianHawkeye]

Nope: Character Level = sum of class level exclusively. No Racial Hit Dice is involved in the glossary definition.

Page 290 of the Monster Manual 3.5 says that racial Hit Dice are considered levels in a creature's "monster class", and also references the general multi-classing rules on pages 59-60 of the Player's Handbook for monsters who gain levels in a character class.

PHB page 59 defines character level as a character's total number of levels.


If I were to be as pedantic as you, I'll point out that the PHB glossary also states that there are only eleven character classes for players. The definition, if you can't understand, has no information that isn't relevant to the basic PC races and classes in the Player's Handbook. For creatures with racial Hit Dice, you have to consult the Monster Manual. The same is true of the definition of character level. For creatures with no racial Hit Dice, character level is only their levels in character classes. For monsters, it also includes their racial Hit Dice or "monster class".

That's as simple as I can break it down for you. If you still don't get it, then there's no helping you. This conversation has already wasted enough of my time, so I'll wish you good luck in the future finding people who agree with you.