Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

[ColorBlindNinja]

The whole broken thing is that a level 75 party is roughly as powerful as a CR 21 party unless in low optimization in which case CR 75 parties are roughly as strong as CR 44 parties(at level 44 you can have spell stowaway time stop and innate spell time stop just by taking feats without doing any shenanigan).

Another major issue with gauging the strength of an epic party is gear.

Your gear becomes more important than your class levels (unless you have epic spells) and you can get insane bonuses from epic magic items.

[Arcanist]

Something to note is this guy seems to have a unique epic spell made just for them. It deals 4d6 Intelligence damage to every creature in 40 10ft cubes, the fact that it offers a saving throw leaves much to be desired at that level of play.

[noob]

Something to note is this guy seems to have a unique epic spell made just for them. It deals 4d6 Intelligence damage to every creature in 40 10ft cubes, the fact that it offers a saving throw leaves much to be desired at that level of play.

also why only 4d6 and not 3012 int removal(which is totally not damage)?
4d6 int damage is 100 times obsolete for 100 different reasons in epic play.(between people getting immunities to tons of things with stuff like becoming undead, naberius, people being so rich they can afford a belt of magnificence +12 just for the looks, magic immunity and so on)

[Karl Aegis]

Huh, looking at Immortals Handbook: Appendix Two, a CR 80 opponent has a 50/50 shot of beating a level 26 party if the level 26 party throws everything they have at it. Interesting.

[ShurikVch]

Cogent, CR 80

Spoiler: Brain, in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEEEE!!!

Show

Image link.

I can't see the picture (and, I presuming, it's not just for me); but I already posted it in reply #183:

(It reminded me about the "BRAINS!")

[noob]

Huh, looking at Immortals Handbook: Appendix Two, a CR 80 opponent has a 50/50 shot of beating a level 26 party if the level 26 party throws everything they have at it. Interesting.

False it is a 100% chance unless the CR 80 monster is somehow better at loops, contingent spell abuse, minionmancy and action economy destruction by excess and/or abuse of epic spells.
And you do not get better tools for doing those things above level 21.

[Arcanist]

Huh, looking at Immortals Handbook: Appendix Two, a CR 80 opponent has a 50/50 shot of beating a level 26 party if the level 26 party throws everything they have at it. Interesting.

Was Appendix Two it's own book? I thought everything after Bestiary one was cancelled?

[Lleban]

Maybe its just the garbage angels before this, but I actually really like this brain thingy. Plus the teleport eels actually work as minions to this.

[Karl Aegis]

False it is a 100% chance unless the CR 80 monster is somehow better at loops, contingent spell abuse, minionmancy and action economy destruction by excess and/or abuse of epic spells.
And you do not get better tools for doing those things above level 21.

Eh, even under those conditions your standard party would only have a... okay yeah, pretty close to 100%. I forgot to calculate just how strong a Wizard 21 was. A party of 21st level Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer has an average ECL of 25.93265 according to Appendix Two, and would likely have foreknowledge of the cogent and would ambush it for -2 EL, and would be horribly min-maxed for another -2 EL for a party of ~26 vs an EL of 22. 87.5% of victory using 25% of the party's resources. Easy. Even easier if the thing was over-CRed (maybe it's only CR 75??).

Was Appendix Two it's own book? I thought everything after Bestiary one was cancelled?

No, Appendix One, Two and Three are their own separate 22 page document. I believe Bestiary One and Ascension were available for 3.5e at one point or another. No Grimoire, though. We shall miss Grimoire and their epic items.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Cicatrix, CR 28

(No picture this time.)


Cicatrix isn’t a demon, he’s a daemon from Hades. And here I thought the Yugoloths were from Hades.

He apparently likes to torture people and is so good at it that he can even torture constructs and undead. Even though they literally can’t feel pain. I think the fluff is just irredeemably stupid at this point and I doubt his crunch is any better.

Let’s see… Cicatrix has a fear aura, he can deal damage that only heals in the area of a Consecrate or Hallow spell, a bunch of thoroughly awful SLAs, deals half the damage he takes back to his opponent, and can cause bleeding wounds.

Oh look, something of redeeming value! Cicatrix casts as a Sorcerer! Wait, a level 13 Sorcerer? Never mind!

Cicatrix also has fast healing 10 and DR 10/epic and evil, wait what?! Epic and evil? That’s the DR you usually find on GOOD aligned monsters! Did anyone proofread this book?!

Finally, Cicatrix has an artifact of his own and it sucks. All it does is provide a minor bonus to hit and damage VS certain races. He can also summon an ultradaemon. What are its stats? Who knows! The book never says!

There are a lot of crap monsters in this book, but so far, I think Cicatrix takes the cake. Forget a level 25 party, I’m confident that a level 20 party of low tier characters could stomp him flat.

The only meaningful mode of attack Cicatrix has is Dire Charge. I guess he might be able to fight more effectively if you swap around his known spells, but his default ones aren’t very good.

Next time we’ll get the actual demons and devils of the Immortal Handbook. And there are exactly one each! See you then!

[Elricaltovilla]

Cicatrix, CR 28

(No picture this time.)


Cicatrix isn’t a demon, he’s a daemon from Hades. And here I thought the Yugoloths were from Hades.

Ooh! I know this one! Yugoloth is part of D&D's product identity. It's not part the D20 system's OGL. That's why Pathfinder uses Daemons instead of Yugoloths as well. Because otherwise it's copyright infringement.

[jmberry]

To be fair, D&D used daemon back in 1E, but changed it to yugoloth in 2E. It's just that yugoloth managed to stick around while baatezu, tanar'ri, and aasimon didn't. As a result, daemon is constantly used a stand in for yugoloth in third party books.

[ColorBlindNinja]

To be fair, D&D used daemon back in 1E, but changed it to yugoloth in 2E. It's just that yugoloth managed to stick around while baatezu, tanar'ri, and aasimon didn't. As a result, daemon is constantly used a stand in for yugoloth in third party books.

Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense. Thank you for explaining that.

[Lleban]

Aside from the name this thing feels so bad I'd rather run a Balor with some class levels or templates.....I miss the cogent.

[DrMotives]

Cicatrix is also an old-timey word for scar tissue, so there's that. But yeah, yugoloth = daemon, much like devil was changed to baatezu, etc. There was also the 1e "demodand" which became ghereleth in 2e & 3.x. But those guys are from Carceri, and pretty obscure. WotC seemed to have focused a lot on just 2 of the lower planes, and left the rest of them looking unpopulated looking.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Cicatrix is also an old-timey word for scar tissue, so there's that. But yeah, yugoloth = daemon, much like devil was changed to baatezu, etc. There was also the 1e "demodand" which became ghereleth in 2e & 3.x. But those guys are from Carceri, and pretty obscure. WotC seemed to have focused a lot on just 2 of the lower planes, and left the rest of them looking unpopulated looking.

I remember they made more Yugoloth monsters for Hades, but Carceri? I can't recall much off the top of my head.

[Karl Aegis]

I think he is a unique guy, but he doesn't stack up that well against other big outsiders. He's closer to the marilith, trumpet archon, horned devil, ghaele eladrin, planetar angel or nightwalker than the solar angel, balor, pit fiend or nightcrawler.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think he is a unique guy, but he doesn't stack up that well against other big outsiders. He's closer to the marilith, trumpet archon, horned devil, ghaele eladrin, planetar angel or nightwalker than the solar angel, balor, pit fiend or nightcrawler.

I would largely agree with that assessment.

Like I said, I think he'd be killed by a party of level 20 of lower tier characters.

[Arcanist]

I would largely agree with that assessment.

Like I said, I think he'd be killed by a party of level 20 of lower tier characters.

I think I'm starting to pick up on a theme here: A lot of these so-called "Godlike" entities can very easily be slaughtered by a party of moderately optimized sub-epic (which this book defines as 20 and under) adventurers that know what they are doing OR even worse by one moderately optimized low epic (below 24 I think?) adventurer.

He just doesn't stand out as a threat. Maybe I'd use him as a story arc capstone villain of the week, but probably not make him the BBEG he wants to be.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think I'm starting to pick up on a theme here: A lot of these so-called "Godlike" entities can very easily be slaughtered by a party of moderately optimized sub-epic (which this book defines as 20 and under) adventurers that know what they are doing OR even worse by one moderately optimized low epic (below 24 I think?) adventurer.

He just doesn't stand out as a threat.

In total fairness, the Epic Handbook has the exact same problem.

But, yeah, I do agree it's disappointing.

[Theoboldi]

To be fair, the book does call him out on not being a good warrior. Despite him still being CR 28. I don't even....

Also, have we pointed out that many of these things have level adjustments? Even the supposedly unique ones like Cicatrix do. Just in case we really wanna play as this utterly forgettable torture horse.

Heck, even were it not for his abysmal stats, this guy is a joke just by his lore. He's the most generic evulz demonic torturer conceivable, has no particular skill as a warrior, strategist, or manipulator, and even his given plot hooks all make him look like a chump! The first of them involves only his minions whose evil plan consists of taking over a place and scarring the people there to mark their territory, the second is about him wanting to get back his missing arm, and in the third he's literally fleeing to the prime marterial plane because he's scared of being assassinated.

I repeat, this god-like entity is scared of assassins. This is downright pathetic.

The only redeeming feature he has is his kind of unique design, but its small creativity is completely wasted here!

Edit: Oh, and may I also point out that his abilities actually run counter to his purpose as a torturer? Wounds inflicted by him cannot be healed outside of a hallowed or consecrated area. Which would make it rather difficult for his victims to recover from them so he can continue torturing them without killing, wouldn't it?

[Eldan]

Ooh! I know this one! Yugoloth is part of D&D's product identity. It's not part the D20 system's OGL. That's why Pathfinder uses Daemons instead of Yugoloths as well. Because otherwise it's copyright infringement.

Not quite. D&D originally used Devil, Demon and Daemon, but then came the satanic panic and they switched over to Baatezu, Tanar'ri and Yugoloth for part of second edition before just using both in 3E.

[ColorBlindNinja]

To be fair, the book does call him out on not being a good warrior. Despite him still being CR 28. I don't even....

Also, have we pointed out that many of these things have level adjustments? Even the supposedly unique ones like Cicatrix do. Just in case we really wanna play as this utterly forgettable torture horse.

Heck, even were it not for his abysmal stats, this guy is a joke just by his lore. He's the most generic evulz demonic torturer conceivable, has no particular skill as a warrior, strategist, or manipulator, and even his given plot hooks all make him look like a chump! The first of them involves only his minions whose evil plan consists of taking over a place and scarring the people there to mark their territory, the second is about him wanting to get back his missing arm, and in the third he's literally fleeing to the prime marterial plane because he's scared of being assassinated.

I repeat, this god-like entity is scared of assassins. This is downright pathetic.

The only redeeming feature he has is his kind of unique design, but its small creativity is completely wasted here!

Edit: Oh, and may I also point out that his abilities actually run counter to his purpose as a torturer? Wounds inflicted by him cannot be healed outside of a hallowed or consecrated area. Which would make it rather difficult for his victims to recover from them so he can continue torturing them without killing, wouldn't it?

Yeah, this guy's entire entry was poorly thought out. Both in fluff and in crunch.

[MeimuHakurei]

Heck, even were it not for his abysmal stats, this guy is a joke just by his lore. He's the most generic evulz demonic torturer conceivable, has no particular skill as a warrior, strategist, or manipulator, and even his given plot hooks all make him look like a chump! The first of them involves only his minions whose evil plan consists of taking over a place and scarring the people there to mark their territory, the second is about him wanting to get back his missing arm, and in the third he's literally fleeing to the prime marterial plane because he's scared of being assassinated.

He's supposed to be the big scary guy who gets destroyed by the actual monster of the week to show how powerful it is.

[Arcanist]

This guy gets worse and worse the more that I look at him. His go too strategy, when you are supposed to be fighting him, includes getting into melee range (assuming he isn't already) casting Vampiric Touch on his opponents if his HP is below 50%, and then resuming the fight. This is on round 3, at epic level.

I generally don't have much experience in Epic level combat, but if encounters against stronger monsters listed in the Monster Manual 1, can potentially last a round (or less), this guy should be able to just kill you at the same pace right? His spells are wack, his weapon is wack, his feats are wack, his items are wack.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I generally don't have much experience in Epic level combat, but if encounters against stronger monsters listed in the Monster Manual 1, can potentially last a round (or less), this guy should be able to just kill you at the same pace right?

I shouldn't think so, unless I've severely misjudged this monster.

His spells are wack, his weapon is wack, his feats are wack, his items are wack.

His spells largely suck. I wasn't overly impressed with his weapons or items from what I recall.

The only thing I remember being threatening is that he can Dire Charge you.

I personally don't think he'd even get to act, the party would just one shot him.

[Lleban]

The one positive thing I can say about this monster is....um, the party will look cool one shooting it luling them into a false sense of security before the real threat arrives. One think i'm looking forward to is comparing the time dragon in this book to the one in dragon mag, cuz i actually have a soft spot for the dragon mag version.

[Scowling Dragon]

You know I gotta say the artwork is growing on me. Maybe it's its general consistency that's giving it some sort of unified feel that any kind of Bestiary/manual usually lacks, but I like em.

To a certain extent allot of the more Slapshot "Just make X but EPICER!" ends up working in artwork (but not mechanics). Like it feels something overdesigned in an intentional way.

And this is strange because I usually hate "Its a Bugbear but EPIC" sort of ideas.

[ben-zayb]

Oh, and may I also point out that his abilities actually run counter to his purpose as a torturer? Wounds inflicted by him cannot be healed outside of a hallowed or consecrated area. Which would make it rather difficult for his victims to recover from them so he can continue torturing them without killing, wouldn't it?

I imagine it inflicts nonlethal damage to prolong the torture, although that would still be stupid because enough nonlethal damage would turn a creature unconscious (and possibly be unable to express its pain).


Looking back at the angels and heaven crap earlier, is it just me or do they feel like chess pieces more than cosmic heavenly entities?

• Sandalphon: King
• Seraphim: Queen
• Cherubim: Rook
• Kyriotates: Bishop
• Malakim: Knight
• Elohim: Pawn

[noob]

You know I gotta say the artwork is growing on me. Maybe it's its general consistency that's giving it some sort of unified feel that any kind of Bestiary/manual usually lacks, but I like em.

To a certain extent allot of the more Slapshot "Just make X but EPICER!" ends up working in artwork (but not mechanics). Like it feels something overdesigned in an intentional way.

And this is strange because I usually hate "Its a Bugbear but EPIC" sort of ideas.

The thing is that their monsters are too standardized up to the point that one template could have allowed to create half of their monsters with only some different statistics.
I think we could do an "x but epicer" template that fits the standardized abilities of those monsters(like dr) and allows to pick a few common secondary abilities(like regeneration or immunity to magic except for epic spells of the divination school or spells cast by "higher dkzjd or whatever").